The bill will not pass in current form.
Basically +1 for hoosierdaddy
Basically +1 for hoosierdaddy
President Obama, it's very simple.
- Thread starter danut
- Start date
ItsAllOver
Devil's Advocate
Learn the definitions of these words:
Learn the definitions of these words:
- Capitalism - a market economy in which the non-labor forms of capital are privately owned
- Moral Hazard - "Moral hazard is the fact that a party insulated from risk may behave differently from the way it would behave if it would be fully exposed to the risk."
- Free Market Economics - "A free market describes a market without economic intervention and regulation by government except to regulate against force or fraud."
- Zero-sum game - "zero-sum describes a situation in which a participant's gain or loss is exactly balanced by the losses or gains of the other participant(s)" - And learn why "capitalist" wealth creation is not a zero-sum game. Then contemplate what the implications are of this on your point of view.
Then, I strongly recommend considering reality.:
Do you really think that it logically follows from the constitution that there is a right to have health care? This specifically applies to those that read the declaration's guarantee to "life" in "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" (constitution has a similar "life, liberty, property") as a guarantee to health care (then what? food, water, shelter?) I know this question does not apply to everyone.
Also
Do you really believe that the government will be doing this so efficiently that it will be cheaper than the cost of insurance if you found a similar plan today? If so, explain why you believe this, and please legitimize your statistics that you will surely cite. Burden of proof is on the person trying to sell me the government plan... Why are these stats so reliable that you base your position on them, even in the face of all the evidence you probably see everyday from which you might conclude that any government budget projection is likely to be false! That doesn't even include other government sponsored stats, such as the GDP, inflation numbers, unemployment numbers, which have strong arguments pointing to skewing in the favor of special interests. Remember special interests aren't just corporations. Politicians have their own reasons to make you think that they are doing this legislation for you, because you are more likely to favor others of their policies in the future.
Positive stated intentions in legislation do not logically prove future results of these actions. Study the evidence and argument that minimum wage laws create higher unemployment. Study the evidence and argument that price ceilings in the event of natural disasters cause shortages in the supply of goods. Interestingly, and maybe off topic, study the evidence and argument for increased seat belt use corresponding with (causing?) increases in number of pedestrians being struck by cars...
So, if you are not sure that the government estimates of cost are correct (and are they ever?), does your support of a government option imply that you are willing to tax others for your own benefit, while they receive nothing? If so, please justify the dictatorial worldview to us.
I do not hold you responsible or liable in any way for my own personal health, whether it is my own doing, accidental or random illness. I recognize that it is unfair to force someone into action. Voluntary action (charity), however, is to be accepted, commended, and its vastness of impact recognized for what it is. If you want to give charity to help those in need of health care, please give generously, and I will as well. (Another form of voluntary action is signing up for health insurance plans that fit your budget, especially while recognizing that you are logically and morally entitled to nothing but that which you can provide for yourself)
However, we must also consider the reality of the situation, which is that no matter what government or private action is taken, we will not be able to alleviate all suffering of the world, and it is blatantly wrong to make a person unvoluntarily part with their life, liberty, or pursuit of happiness. This leaves an obvious choice to me.
If the government plan was somehow created in a way that it will definitely not interfere with the other imperative actions of government, and will not create unnecessary burdens upon the people who decide not to partake in it (taxes to cover losses/fines for anyone who doesn't get any plan), I would have a neutral opinion on it. But since I think this is not the case here, and it may even be explicit somewhere in the bill, I oppose health care legislation of any kind by our government.
Again, I am not a heartless person that wants to see the downtrodden and out of luck get screwed and die. I simply contend that a reasonable look at the evidence in the context of the constitution and economic principles with a desire for the greatest good possible does not lead to a decision of direct government action other than regulation in this case. And I DO SUPPORT REGULATION, I'll be clear about that.
I use links to the necessary concepts because I don't have the time to explain them all. Sorry about that. But you can find out for yourself, as I have, what these things are/represent and what the possible implications are on your open-minded point of view. They may have impact, they may have none. Let me know why.
Sorry if this seems random and not directed at anyone's particular view, but I wanted to address a lot of the things I have read/heard lately.
Peace
Learn the definitions of these words:
- Capitalism - a market economy in which the non-labor forms of capital are privately owned
- Moral Hazard - "Moral hazard is the fact that a party insulated from risk may behave differently from the way it would behave if it would be fully exposed to the risk."
- Free Market Economics - "A free market describes a market without economic intervention and regulation by government except to regulate against force or fraud."
- Zero-sum game - "zero-sum describes a situation in which a participant's gain or loss is exactly balanced by the losses or gains of the other participant(s)" - And learn why "capitalist" wealth creation is not a zero-sum game. Then contemplate what the implications are of this on your point of view.
Then, I strongly recommend considering reality.:
Do you really think that it logically follows from the constitution that there is a right to have health care? This specifically applies to those that read the declaration's guarantee to "life" in "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" (constitution has a similar "life, liberty, property") as a guarantee to health care (then what? food, water, shelter?) I know this question does not apply to everyone.
Also
Do you really believe that the government will be doing this so efficiently that it will be cheaper than the cost of insurance if you found a similar plan today? If so, explain why you believe this, and please legitimize your statistics that you will surely cite. Burden of proof is on the person trying to sell me the government plan... Why are these stats so reliable that you base your position on them, even in the face of all the evidence you probably see everyday from which you might conclude that any government budget projection is likely to be false! That doesn't even include other government sponsored stats, such as the GDP, inflation numbers, unemployment numbers, which have strong arguments pointing to skewing in the favor of special interests. Remember special interests aren't just corporations. Politicians have their own reasons to make you think that they are doing this legislation for you, because you are more likely to favor others of their policies in the future.
Positive stated intentions in legislation do not logically prove future results of these actions. Study the evidence and argument that minimum wage laws create higher unemployment. Study the evidence and argument that price ceilings in the event of natural disasters cause shortages in the supply of goods. Interestingly, and maybe off topic, study the evidence and argument for increased seat belt use corresponding with (causing?) increases in number of pedestrians being struck by cars...
So, if you are not sure that the government estimates of cost are correct (and are they ever?), does your support of a government option imply that you are willing to tax others for your own benefit, while they receive nothing? If so, please justify the dictatorial worldview to us.
I do not hold you responsible or liable in any way for my own personal health, whether it is my own doing, accidental or random illness. I recognize that it is unfair to force someone into action. Voluntary action (charity), however, is to be accepted, commended, and its vastness of impact recognized for what it is. If you want to give charity to help those in need of health care, please give generously, and I will as well. (Another form of voluntary action is signing up for health insurance plans that fit your budget, especially while recognizing that you are logically and morally entitled to nothing but that which you can provide for yourself)
However, we must also consider the reality of the situation, which is that no matter what government or private action is taken, we will not be able to alleviate all suffering of the world, and it is blatantly wrong to make a person unvoluntarily part with their life, liberty, or pursuit of happiness. This leaves an obvious choice to me.
If the government plan was somehow created in a way that it will definitely not interfere with the other imperative actions of government, and will not create unnecessary burdens upon the people who decide not to partake in it (taxes to cover losses/fines for anyone who doesn't get any plan), I would have a neutral opinion on it. But since I think this is not the case here, and it may even be explicit somewhere in the bill, I oppose health care legislation of any kind by our government.
Again, I am not a heartless person that wants to see the downtrodden and out of luck get screwed and die. I simply contend that a reasonable look at the evidence in the context of the constitution and economic principles with a desire for the greatest good possible does not lead to a decision of direct government action other than regulation in this case. And I DO SUPPORT REGULATION, I'll be clear about that.
I use links to the necessary concepts because I don't have the time to explain them all. Sorry about that. But you can find out for yourself, as I have, what these things are/represent and what the possible implications are on your open-minded point of view. They may have impact, they may have none. Let me know why.
Sorry if this seems random and not directed at anyone's particular view, but I wanted to address a lot of the things I have read/heard lately.
Peace
The left's leadership won't take the time to offer up a reasoned argument, nor will they logically take a look at any of their agenda driven issues, such as you have, ItsAllOver.
The main reason is, IMO, because they fear that the truth of the matters will hose it for them. And it will.
The truths of the matters is what scares the left the most. And that is why their constituencies tend to not vote or lobby for things that are reasoned out, but rather for the smoke-n-mirror package of bullshit they get fed.
To extrapolate that our Constitution guarantees us health care due to the term "Life" being used may be fine to do, but only if we also take the very next word in full context, and honor it as well. That next word being"Liberty".
Very well done, ItsAllOver.
The main reason is, IMO, because they fear that the truth of the matters will hose it for them. And it will.
The truths of the matters is what scares the left the most. And that is why their constituencies tend to not vote or lobby for things that are reasoned out, but rather for the smoke-n-mirror package of bullshit they get fed.
To extrapolate that our Constitution guarantees us health care due to the term "Life" being used may be fine to do, but only if we also take the very next word in full context, and honor it as well. That next word being"Liberty".
Very well done, ItsAllOver.
SKUNK420
Member
Nancey Pelosi and the dems don't care if this helps the country they just want to get re-elected flat out.
Once they pass this in the Senate (hopefully they don't) there is NO going back, NO going home again, yes it will be over.
Where was the transparency at?
Same old Sh!t different president.
Also remember Harry Reid may not get re-elected and my try to pass it with a reconciliation bill.
Wait and see how the dems try to bribe other dems into voting yes with pork project money for their states. You won't see that on C-Span or any public website for us to review before they vote either!
Once they pass this in the Senate (hopefully they don't) there is NO going back, NO going home again, yes it will be over.
Where was the transparency at?
Same old Sh!t different president.
Also remember Harry Reid may not get re-elected and my try to pass it with a reconciliation bill.
Wait and see how the dems try to bribe other dems into voting yes with pork project money for their states. You won't see that on C-Span or any public website for us to review before they vote either!
I know how it works, but even with the abortion adm. it only passed by a margin of 5.
A HCR bill will pass, but it will be extremely watered down, and it won't pass till 2010.
A HCR bill will pass, but it will be extremely watered down, and it won't pass till 2010.
D
danny karey
No offense, but I think your government has sucked ass for awile now. Obama is absolutely useless he hasn't done shit really, your oil war is still going on which is bullshit, you guys have one of the worst healthcare systems on the planet.........I can't believe people are still living there to be honest. Your whole culture is based on greed and bullshit, cosmetic surgery and reality shows are your new religion.
I think the rest of the world needs to invade the states and take it over, it's gonna happen, you guys have pissed off almost every other country by trying to police it.........WHICH IS F"N BULLSHIT!!!!
To be brutally honest here, I f'n hate the states, not the people (even though there not doing shit to fix anything) But your government is a f'n joke, Obama is a joke, im pretty sure the future of your greedy shity country is gonna be a joke.
Sorry if I offended anyone, but it's true, you guys are the greediest fuckers on the planet.
My .02
Danny
I think the rest of the world needs to invade the states and take it over, it's gonna happen, you guys have pissed off almost every other country by trying to police it.........WHICH IS F"N BULLSHIT!!!!
To be brutally honest here, I f'n hate the states, not the people (even though there not doing shit to fix anything) But your government is a f'n joke, Obama is a joke, im pretty sure the future of your greedy shity country is gonna be a joke.
Sorry if I offended anyone, but it's true, you guys are the greediest fuckers on the planet.
My .02
Danny
[q]This specifically applies to those that read the constitution's guarantee to "life" in "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness"[/q]
That's not from the Constitution, that's from a document called the "Declaration of Independence" which has the legal force of a "Dear John" letter.
That's not from the Constitution, that's from a document called the "Declaration of Independence" which has the legal force of a "Dear John" letter.
ItsAllOver
Devil's Advocate
Yep sorry about the confusion there. Nice nit picking though, it's not directly relevant to refuting any of my arguments...
Peace
Oh and Danny, I hear you on everything but the greed point. But the thing is many of us want to do something about the oil war, drug war, fractional reserve banking, government intervention in financial sector and others which causes moral hazard, but the system is set up in a clever way which keeps anyone but the top spenders from having any (real) impact. Many people think they are fixing things when they check the Rep or Dem box on the ballot or spend hours campaigning for a puppet (now with many documented and significant lies under his belt. Just mentioning that for those that told me to wait and see...), but both of those parties are one in the same. Some of us are working on it, though. I am afraid, as it's obvious you are, that Americans are too dumb/complacent/unreasonable to get it fixed though. There are just a lot of complex issues at hand, here. We have our people totally immersed in television, getting all of their viewpoints dictated to them through this medium, whether it is explicit (and whether they know it) or not.
The last thing I want is to have the "revolution" start and it begin with the Jesus-lovers (of which we have far too many to be a good sign) running through the streets killing in the name of god. The shitty part is that most of those nuts believe in a free market and many of the same things I do, but either for different reasons, or they don't even know why.
Peace
Oh and Danny, I hear you on everything but the greed point. But the thing is many of us want to do something about the oil war, drug war, fractional reserve banking, government intervention in financial sector and others which causes moral hazard, but the system is set up in a clever way which keeps anyone but the top spenders from having any (real) impact. Many people think they are fixing things when they check the Rep or Dem box on the ballot or spend hours campaigning for a puppet (now with many documented and significant lies under his belt. Just mentioning that for those that told me to wait and see...), but both of those parties are one in the same. Some of us are working on it, though. I am afraid, as it's obvious you are, that Americans are too dumb/complacent/unreasonable to get it fixed though. There are just a lot of complex issues at hand, here. We have our people totally immersed in television, getting all of their viewpoints dictated to them through this medium, whether it is explicit (and whether they know it) or not.
The last thing I want is to have the "revolution" start and it begin with the Jesus-lovers (of which we have far too many to be a good sign) running through the streets killing in the name of god. The shitty part is that most of those nuts believe in a free market and many of the same things I do, but either for different reasons, or they don't even know why.
danut
Member
Yep .. you offended me.
As for the people not doing shit .. There haven't been waves of people with guns heading for Washington DC. I guess that is the only way you would agree that the people here would be "doing shit."
In case you didn't hear them talking last November Ron Paul and Jessie Ventura both talked about the potential need for the people to pick up guns and take back our government.
Both were saying that we're not there yet .. that there is a possibility of taking our government back without people having to die as a result.
Both said we're not there ... yet.
We forced a change in Michigan re medical marijuana laws. The people went around the government and issued the government a direct order:
Stop arresting patients.
The powers that be don't like it. They can eat shit and die.
Yes .. they want to ignore the people. Even Obama. Remember him laughing at the marijuana community? After getting elected, of course.
There are a lot of pissed off people in the US.
If nothing else remember this: I'm a rattle snake .. and you just stepped on my tail.
M
Marywanna
Frankly Danny,we don't give a rats ass what you think about the USA. Piss off.
D
danny karey
LOL, the rest of the world feels the same way I do, and you guys know it, I don't give a rats ass if you like it or not.
It's true, sorry but......Deal with it!!!!!
Danny
It's true, sorry but......Deal with it!!!!!
Danny
M
Marywanna
Poor misguided Danny..............you must be French,dear
D
danny karey
Nope Im from Ontario actually, and I got a relative fighting in your BS war for oil. I probably know more about the US than you do actually.
You think Im french...LOL!!
Your a funny girl, maybe you should look some stuff up and learn a bit about your own country.
Im not one for picking on girls for any reason ever, but, everything Ive posted is fact. Im all for having a debat, but Im just wondering what offended you about what I wrote??
The part about you guys being greedy, your in the middle of a war to steal another country's natural resources. Id call that greedy.
You guys try and police the world, it's absolutely none of your business...at all!!
Your healthcare is crap, ya gotta pay cash for check ups and emergency's, The only argument Ive heard about Canadian helthcare is that it take's a long time to see a doctor........and thats BS too.
One of YOUR past presidents started the war on drugs. I know it happend a long time ago but still.
Killing your own people for the war for oil, call me crazy but that isn't a good thing I don't think!
You pretty much sunk the worlds economy, thats pretty nifty..LOL.
I don't know if ya know this either, but the rest of the world think your country's a joke too......But I guess they must not know what there talking about...Right? LOL!!!
and then you guys wonder why 911 happend, and it wasn't even that big of a deal compared to what heppens in the rest of the world on a daily basis, not too mention alot of people believe it was your own government that did it.......That can't be a good thing either right??
Sorry honey, but this is some pretty conclusive evidence wouldn't ya say. and you say Im misguided......LOL!!
Danny
You think Im french...LOL!!
Your a funny girl, maybe you should look some stuff up and learn a bit about your own country.
Im not one for picking on girls for any reason ever, but, everything Ive posted is fact. Im all for having a debat, but Im just wondering what offended you about what I wrote??
The part about you guys being greedy, your in the middle of a war to steal another country's natural resources. Id call that greedy.
You guys try and police the world, it's absolutely none of your business...at all!!
Your healthcare is crap, ya gotta pay cash for check ups and emergency's, The only argument Ive heard about Canadian helthcare is that it take's a long time to see a doctor........and thats BS too.
One of YOUR past presidents started the war on drugs. I know it happend a long time ago but still.
Killing your own people for the war for oil, call me crazy but that isn't a good thing I don't think!
You pretty much sunk the worlds economy, thats pretty nifty..LOL.
I don't know if ya know this either, but the rest of the world think your country's a joke too......But I guess they must not know what there talking about...Right? LOL!!!
and then you guys wonder why 911 happend, and it wasn't even that big of a deal compared to what heppens in the rest of the world on a daily basis, not too mention alot of people believe it was your own government that did it.......That can't be a good thing either right??
Sorry honey, but this is some pretty conclusive evidence wouldn't ya say. and you say Im misguided......LOL!!
Danny
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We have been in Iraq for what, six years now? And we have not touched their oil.
The wars the US is engaged in are not about oil, asshole. Only ignorant people make that claim.
And the US health care system is the finest, most advanced, and most efficient health care system in the world. Bar none. Name another better. Can' be done, because we have the best of the best.
Only a dumbass would state it differently, due to them being ate up with ignorance.
Problem is, we have a few million dumb shits just like you, Danny, that have their heads so far up their asses they forget what daylight looks like.
Best thing for you to do is keep your asshatted comments to yourself, and stop making yourself look so goddamn stupid.
It's little snot nosed punks like you that piss me off. I shit bigger than you.
There isn't one American in here that wouldn't bust you in your cocksucker if you spoke to them in person the way you spout off here. And I highly doubt you run your mouth much about people and their Nation in person.
The wars the US is engaged in are not about oil, asshole. Only ignorant people make that claim.
And the US health care system is the finest, most advanced, and most efficient health care system in the world. Bar none. Name another better. Can' be done, because we have the best of the best.
Only a dumbass would state it differently, due to them being ate up with ignorance.
Problem is, we have a few million dumb shits just like you, Danny, that have their heads so far up their asses they forget what daylight looks like.
Best thing for you to do is keep your asshatted comments to yourself, and stop making yourself look so goddamn stupid.
It's little snot nosed punks like you that piss me off. I shit bigger than you.
There isn't one American in here that wouldn't bust you in your cocksucker if you spoke to them in person the way you spout off here. And I highly doubt you run your mouth much about people and their Nation in person.
D
danny karey
Did you just call me an asshole.....LOL!!!!!
hahah....... your another internet tough guy eh!! Actually your country got voted one of the worst places to live in the world......LOL!!
Canada has a much better healthcare system actually......Only an american would think other wise....LOL
Im a pretty big guy actually, Id have no problem speaking to them face to face.....LOL!!
I piss you off, you just did a 12yr old rant cause your to pathetic to actually argue my points...........What are you like 20yrs old.
Most advanced healthcare....LOL...what are you talking about man, are just gonna spit out shit that makes no sense....Cool...Lol
You goof!!! LOL....
and yes they have stolen oil, where the hell have you been?
The entire rest of the world hates your country dude, but they must not know what there talking about right?
and pretty typical of an american....you gotta run your mouth and act like your a tuff guy......LOL
Danny
hahah....... your another internet tough guy eh!! Actually your country got voted one of the worst places to live in the world......LOL!!
Canada has a much better healthcare system actually......Only an american would think other wise....LOL
Im a pretty big guy actually, Id have no problem speaking to them face to face.....LOL!!
I piss you off, you just did a 12yr old rant cause your to pathetic to actually argue my points...........What are you like 20yrs old.
Most advanced healthcare....LOL...what are you talking about man, are just gonna spit out shit that makes no sense....Cool...Lol
You goof!!! LOL....
and yes they have stolen oil, where the hell have you been?
The entire rest of the world hates your country dude, but they must not know what there talking about right?
and pretty typical of an american....you gotta run your mouth and act like your a tuff guy......LOL
Danny
Pathetic.
Solar Puffer
Member
The industrial corporate capitalism we have today is a cancer that will eat the whole planet. Democrat, Republican, even most Libertarians serve the same master, endless greed. Someone posted in this thread that the US has the best health care in the world. What a joke, obviously written by someone who hasn't travelled and is ignorant about the real state of things. Even some 3rd world countries have better health care than we do. Though, if your rich and need a specialist, hey, the USA can fix you up just fine. These are complex issues, but the desire for short term profit above all other values is degrading the planet, in every way. Get ready for some big changes.
I want anyone to point out how another health care system is better than the one in the US.
Give us specifics.
There is no better system, and the quality of our care is unsurpassed.
Or admit that you are simply blowing off the regular rhetoric that other US haters blow, without really having the slightest clue.
I notice that many of you who bring such outlandish claims to the table tend to talk in platitudes, rather than specifics. Give some specifics, or else pipe your hatred down.
Give us specifics.
There is no better system, and the quality of our care is unsurpassed.
OK, so go for it big dick....tell us exactly what system is better, and how.
Or admit that you are simply blowing off the regular rhetoric that other US haters blow, without really having the slightest clue.
I notice that many of you who bring such outlandish claims to the table tend to talk in platitudes, rather than specifics. Give some specifics, or else pipe your hatred down.
It is hip to be against the US. Even US citizens hate their own country.
You didn't know that Hoosier?
You didn't know that Hoosier?
ItsAllOver
Devil's Advocate
Danny, how can you justify ascribing the actions and beliefs of one group of people onto the whole of the people living within the same geographic borders? That is just silly.
And in that same vein, it's hilarious that you say that since many people around the world having the same uninformed, stereotypical view of the totality of Americans that you do, it must be the truth, is downright illogical.
Not all Americans are greedy and stupid (many are), so please get it through your head. Just like although you appear abrasive and guided entirely by preconceptions, I won't assume that all Canadians are.
Please add something substantive to our debate. You're off topic and wasting our time.
And in that same vein, it's hilarious that you say that since many people around the world having the same uninformed, stereotypical view of the totality of Americans that you do, it must be the truth, is downright illogical.
Not all Americans are greedy and stupid (many are), so please get it through your head. Just like although you appear abrasive and guided entirely by preconceptions, I won't assume that all Canadians are.
Please add something substantive to our debate. You're off topic and wasting our time.
