The OBBT Grow Show!

[420passion]

1st of all id like to say high to every one. This is my first post on icmag and second id like to say thank you so much for all the hard work all of you have done and for sharing your hard work in the form of information. I hope one day to have given back as much as ive got out of all of this. i am truly fascinated and excited.

OBBT is the whole reason I registered for icmag. For the past few weeks i have been reading and rereading the various threads on the subject as well as a lot of info on organics. with that of course i have some questions. I dont want to make this to long and annoying so i will be back with the questions. just wanted to introduce myself here and express my gratitude.

 

[h.h.]

Well strike one up bro...Pretty soon you'll be answering questions. You'll find most questions have already been answered. The ones that aren't? Those are on you. Let us know when you find them. I didn't build this house, but welcome to it.

 

[420passion]

I found this mineral mix consisting of 20% each azomite, glacial rock dust, greensand, soft rock phosphate, and lime stone. it seems to me like a really kick ass source of traces and food (if i understand correctly the bacteria and fungi will feed on this) i am unsure of its sulfur to mg ratio (I think this is important?) any advice on weather i should still use fast acting lime? and or epsome salt? of course none of this is ph related due to the obbt so i thought it would be better asked here.

 

[SilverSurfer_OG]

High!

Offline at mo but will update when i get back and running...

Heres the link to the pots i got: http://cgi.ebay.com.au/SQUARE-POT-2...Seed_Starting_Hydroponics?hash=item1c0ab18008

Happy gardening!

 

[McDanger]

I found this mineral mix consisting of 20% each azomite, glacial rock dust, greensand, soft rock phosphate, and lime stone. it seems to me like a really kick ass source of traces and food (if i understand correctly the bacteria and fungi will feed on this) i am unsure of its sulfur to mg ratio (I think this is important?) any advice on weather i should still use fast acting lime? and or epsome salt? of course none of this is ph related due to the obbt so i thought it would be better asked here.

Was this at a big box store? Where did you find it?

 

[420passion]

product is called naomi's mineral mix

http://www.scribd.com/full/21836516?access_key=key-1e066djs3l30i24sazrp

 

[420passion]

I am so looking forward from an update from LL! I really like SSOGs buckets but cant find them in the U.S. so i just got some 5 gal buckets and am planning to pretty much copy rrog design. I got the uni seals and all. I was thinking of using this pump http://www.aquacave.com/alita-al40-linear-air-pump-183.html to power 24 buckets and a rez or 2 for preparing my tap water. the plan is to have all the lines hooked up with quick disconnects so that i can do an easy perpetual of 12 in flower 6 in veg and 6 cooking. more or less 4 wk veg 8 wk flower. since i only need a week or 2 of cooking ill just plop the unused lines in the prep water(32gal cans) thoughts on the pump? i was thinking i might need the next size up but i am really trying to avoid as much noise as i can.
this is what i got going for my mix so far. opinions very welcome as i have not much of a clue what i am doing lol.
50% canna coco
25% perlite (chunky if i can find it)
12.5% roots organic soil
12.5% roots EWC
A splash of great white for inoculation.
My mineral mix of course (suggested quantity on this one?)
I want to use kelp, blood, and bone meal. probably like half of what LL uses until i gain more exp.
still wondering if i need epsome salt and or fast acting lime...epsome seems good to me.
I was think this would be good for veg and may linger a bit into bloom. was thinking of just using pura vida and vermi t for flower sinse i dont really want to brew my own tea right now. sorry for the long post. man im excited!

 

[h.h.]

50% coco, 25% SOIL 25% Vermiculite/Perlite

The fine EWC may cause problems.

 

[420passion]

"fine EWC"? how so? roots is the brand if there is any confusion. I under stood the "soil" portion recommended by DM was half EWC and half compost. I thought this would be some what similar. please correct me if i am wrong.

 

[h.h.]

I'm running a similar system though not the same. The mix is also a derivative. In 1 bucket the finer particles settled and weren't getting oxygen. . I simply changed the water, but...They also create a denser mix giving to less airflow.
I'm simply a novice. I'm not here to correct anybody. Just relating my experiences as I saw them. I said may. Apparently they work in DM's system. I think I had a note from LL about the coarser vermiculite helping to hold the fines, but she'll have to ring in on that.

 

[RipVanWeed]

Hey 420passion,

The medium I've been using is very similar to what you've got. My plants have done great.



Can't wait to see how your setup pops...please be sure to keep us updated.



Sounds like you've aquired the componets, when are you gonna assemble



and start up your grow?



Good Luck,

Respect,

 

[420passion]

well if i get something that looks half as good as that pic ill be pretty stoked. nice pic man! i pretty much have everything i need. i am going to begin the build tomorrow. i will try to hunt down a good camera for some pics but im pretty much just doing an exact replica of rrogs buckets minus a few holes. thanks rrog! im just going to do a dump valve. no sight tube. no over flow. i figure ill just pre measure and check the dump valve every so often. in a short time i should have a good feel for how much water i got in there.

 

[McDanger]

well if i get something that looks half as good as that pic ill be pretty stoked. nice pic man! i pretty much have everything i need. i am going to begin the build tomorrow. i will try to hunt down a good camera for some pics but im pretty much just doing an exact replica of rrogs buckets minus a few holes. thanks rrog! im just going to do a dump valve. no sight tube. no over flow. i figure ill just pre measure and check the dump valve every so often. in a short time i should have a good feel for how much water i got in there.

This is just my opinion, but, if you are only going to put 1 fitting in the bucket and are using the uniseals, I would go with the sight tube. All you need is a short piece of 1/2" pvc, one 90, and a piece of clear tube about 3" long. You can rotate the fitting in the uniseal without causing a leak so you can use that as a dump and overflow.
One other thing to consider. In my buckets I was getting some settling of contents, so much that I could not blow thru the air line. When assembling the obbt, run air constantly while adding the ingredients to make sure the airstone does not clog up. I don't know if it is because I used hydroton instead of the bigger lava rock in the res that something settled and plugged the airflow. I was able to get it fixed by blowing thru the line with an air compressor to clean it out, then putting the pump back on and it seems to be working now.(I can blow thru the airline now)
Just a heads up on potential problems. Good Luck

P.S. You can run the airline thru the sight tube also. This helps so that something does not plug up the site tube.

 

[rrog]

I'm with McD. If I had only one hole in the bucket, I would have it be a combo overflow / sight tube. There's not such a regular scheduled need for draining, and if you had to drain, you could easily pump it out through this one hole.

Having said that, I think my next buckets will have two holes. One is a dedicated drain, and the other the overflow / sight tube combo.

I ran my airlines down the side of the buckets, and covered in medium. I don't personally like the idea of airlines in the overflow / sight tubes. Running the airlines down the side of the bucket harms nothing.

 

[Organixx420]

what are your stances on flushing with a bio bucket?

i know alot of people dont flush with organics, but i personally have always liked a little flush.. at least with "conventional" organics..

but if the microbes act as a nutrient relay/buffer, it seems like you wouldnt have to..

though, the plant isnt going to want to naturally flush itself out.. so it doesnt seem like its exudates would "tell" the microbes to stop giving it nutes..

 

[Organixx420]

a few questions..

a few questions..

ok so i have few more things i cant quite wrap my brain around..


1. how often do i water? if the res in the bottom keeps the medium moist for a long time, how long before the res goes "stale" and i need to water again to displace the current res water?

2.on the flush/starve/feed subject.. do i only apply my teas every 3 weeks?
what i have in my head goes like this..

Veg:
week 1 - water only
week 2 - water only (maybe light N feeding)
week 3 - water only then empty the res at the end of the week
week 4 - veg tea once medium is dry
week 5 - water only
week 6 - water only then empty the res at the end of the week

Flower:
week 1 - flower tea once medium is dry
week 2 - water only
week 3 - water only then empty the res at the end of the week
week 4 - flower tea once medium is dry
week 5 - water only
week 6 - water only then empty the res at the end of the week
week 7 - flower tea once medium is dry
week 8 - water only
week 9 - water only then empty the res at the end of the week

3. how often do you foliar feed? every day? every other day?

thanks in advance!

 

[DrunkenMessiah]

Hrrrm. Well, I've been a good lurker for the past couple of months, leaving our fair lady to run her thread and answer questions as she sees fit. I think she's done a great job, especially with her more-pictures-less-verbiage approach.

But it would appear that she has temporally taken leave of her post. So as one of the origional propriaters of the OBBT technique I shall step in and see if I can satisfy some of these excellent questions.

what are your stances on flushing with a bio bucket?

i know alot of people dont flush with organics, but i personally have always liked a little flush.. at least with "conventional" organics..

but if the microbes act as a nutrient relay/buffer, it seems like you wouldnt have to..

though, the plant isnt going to want to naturally flush itself out.. so it doesnt seem like its exudates would "tell" the microbes to stop giving it nutes..

Flush/starve with the OBBTs is interesting and altogether different than what one may experience with other techniques; both organic and otherwise.

The argument on whether organic grows should be flushed has raged for years and shall continue to do so for the foreseeable future. However, it definitely has its place when running an OBBT.

Organixx, you are correct in your assumption that the plant doesn't necessarily 'want' to flush itself out. But with organics flushing it out is not a big priority, except at the end. Let's think about the chemistry:

In a salt-fertilized medium-based grow, there is a big problem with letting the medium go very dry. As the water content of the medium drops the water-soluble salts that delivered the nutrients run out of places to hide. The shrinking water supply makes the salts get 'pushed out' into the medium. They re-crystalize, and that's bad. This causes burn, pH problems, salt lock-up, just tons of issues. So, if looking to starve a soil plant grown this way flushing becomes necessary. Doing this also makes the medium 'empty' and reverse osmosis occurs. The low TDS and mineral content of the medium 'sucks' matirial out of the plants.

With organic mediums, especially mega bio-active ones like OBBT, this is a non-issue. Starving is a breeze. The nutrients in an OBBT do not rely on the moisture content to stay dissolved. Let it drop to 0% moisture and none of the nutrients or minerals are going to crystallize and get pushed out like salt nutes. Flushing, and therefore creating a nutrient 'vacuum' like described above, has no benefit and many downsides during growth.

You assume that when you want to starve the plant isn't going to 'tell' the microbes to stop delivering nutes and this is mostly true. YOU are going to tell the microbes to stop delivering nutes. Just let the medium go dry. That's it. The microbes we use have evolved over millions of years, they have built-in contingency plants for drought and will survive low moisture content long after your plants have withered and died, don't worry about them. Allowing an OBBT to slowly go dry makes the microherd slowly, gently, gradually grind to a halt. The entire nutrient delivery system locks up.

This creates a very effective 'starve'. The microbes quit liberating and delivering nutrients to the plants as they get dryer and dryer. You aren't just depriving the plant of water, but nutes as well. There is no need to flush or 'strip' minerals from the medium to achieve a good starve with the OBBTs.

The only time flushing an OBBT is appropriate is when finishing. Stripping the medium and creating a nutrient vacuum is effective for rapidly lowering the starch content of the plants. When you put the plants in final starve, the one they never escape from, a good flush with a well-mixed stripping agent (I liked DNF Clear) is great for booting the plants into the first stage of curing and to keep them from being too green and minty when you cut them down. This is especially helpful with heavily trained and supercropped plants, as they have unusually high starch content, much of it concentrated in the buds, even more when you do screen training like Lady L.

However, if you are interested in aquiring true connesuir's bud you want to leave some starch in the plants. High-complexity starches placed in long-term storage are the fuel that drives the curing process. These complex sugars will continue to be involved in the chemical processes that where going on before the plant died. This old grower argues that this is a REAL process and is the drive behind the old argument that curing effects potency. The famed canna-researchers of olde, Starks and Clarke, came to this conclusion as they noted a drop in starch content of bud when it was put through a 'proper' jar-style cure.

ok so i have few more things i cant quite wrap my brain around..


1. how often do i water? if the res in the bottom keeps the medium moist for a long time, how long before the res goes "stale" and i need to water again to displace the current res water?

The water in the reservoir will never go stale. This is just one function of the aggressive air-pumping scheme. Any liquid down in the bath is at 100% of it's dissolved oxygen capacity 100% of the time.

This question is why other existing OBBT users have suggested that if you are gonna go with a 1-hole design skip the drain hole and go with the venerable, ever-useful sight-tube/overflow.

It is very very useful to know the water level in the bath. OBBTs stay moist for a long time, but the heavy oxygenation means that once the bath runs out of water moisture levels plummet quickly. This is great for aggressive, hydro-style starve scedules that produce great results without blowing 2-week holes in your nutrient schedule. But it means you gotta watch the water when you don't want to be starving (like in veg).

Always just 'top them off'. The need to replace the water regularly is non-existent, and perhaps even damaging to the aerobic bacteria that prefer to stay submerged.

2.on the flush/starve/feed subject.. do i only apply my teas every 3 weeks?
what i have in my head goes like this..

Veg:
week 1 - water only
week 2 - water only (maybe light N feeding)
week 3 - water only then empty the res at the end of the week
week 4 - veg tea once medium is dry
week 5 - water only
week 6 - water only then empty the res at the end of the week

Flower:
week 1 - flower tea once medium is dry
week 2 - water only
week 3 - water only then empty the res at the end of the week
week 4 - flower tea once medium is dry
week 5 - water only
week 6 - water only then empty the res at the end of the week
week 7 - flower tea once medium is dry
week 8 - water only
week 9 - water only then empty the res at the end of the week

That looks very good. Just remember that flower tea won't always be the same. OBBTs seem to benefit greatly from differentiating 'flower' and 'stretch'. Just because you have switched them to 12/12 light doesn't mean they are flowering. Build a flower tea around the 1/2/1 ratio during stretch, the beginning of flower. This period is where the plants grow massively, doubling or tripling in size. There is a definite 'line' where they go from focusing on branch/leaf expansion to focusing on flowers. You want to maximize this process! There is no other single stage of cannabis development that can positively effect yield/time as much as stretch.

So if you thwack the plants with mega-heavy P doses early in flower you can discorage heavy stretching. This is a good strategy if you vegged to long and you worry about them getting too big for your enclosure. But if you have timed things right, veged your plants to account for big stretch, doing it right will save you a lot of time. N is the devil in later bits of flower, you wish to minimize its use, but do not be afraid to continue to employ decent levels of it in the first few weeks that follow the switch to 12/12. As mentioned, a ratio of 1/2/1 (N/P/K) is favorable for early flower.

As you get later on and make it through starve #2 you will switch to a more P-heavy diet, with a ratio resembling 1/3/2, possibly even up to 1/4/2 depending on how voracious your ladies get.

3. how often do you foliar feed? every day? every other day?

thanks in advance!

Buhh. This is one I lack absolute comfort in answering for Lady L on. These days, I'm sure we'll disagree. I used to massively play up the importance of foliar feeding, considering it a method for increasing growth performance in all cases, no matter what. The more my horticultural knowledge grows the less I'm sure about that. I became a big proponent of foliar because of real-world results that I saw with my own eyes, an easiy perceived big difference. But I am finding the benefits we saw may have had much more to do with the shortcommings of our hot, cramped and crude early grow style than the universal benefits of foliar treatment.

A thick, dense, bushy plant with a well-mixed and highly bio-active OBBT is not short on nutrient uptake capability. Yes, scientifically, the stomata are capable of absorbing nutrients literally hundreds of times faster and more efficiently than the roots. The key word there is capable. Just because they can doesn't mean they need it. Supercropped cannabis especially has tremendous water uptake capacity. I now think that foliar treatments should be mainly relegated to highly efficient delivery of hormone treatments. Stuff like Nitrozyme and Natural Kelp Extract are high in beneficial hormone content. Proper use of them sees no benefit in delivering the substances more often than once or twice a week. Lady L and I maintained religious daily foliar regimes, but this was because we where leveraging Bonide's Tomato Spray to generate false females for massive lady ratios from mixed, un-feminized seed. Lady L has already forsaken this practice, there are some ugly pictures that show the downside of what we where playing with.

Anyway, that about covers it I think. If anybody has un-addressed questions I don't think that the Lady would object to a few re-posts so that I can have a better look at them. I'm not sure what's up with her, but I know she'll be pleased with me being her answering machine until she pops up again.

Good luck, and happy gardening!

-DM

 

[rrog]

Well DM! How are ya man? Very nice to hear from you!

 

[rrog]

This question is why other existing OBBT users have suggested that if you are gonna go with a 1-hole design skip the drain hole and go with the venerable, ever-useful sight-tube/overflow.

If that was me you were referring to, I had observed that for the few flushes needed, a small hose could be inserted into the overflow / sight tube and a small aquarium pump could empty the res. I have a lot of pumps and hose from my last (only) hydro grow.

Having said that, next build I would have a sight / overflow as one hole, and a drain as the second hole.

BTW Thanks again for bringing this to all of us. Still exciting.

 

[Organixx420]

Thank you so much DM!!!

you answered my questions perfectly!!

and i am aware of the need for N during the stretch, thanks for making sure though!

here are my tea recipes.. (and yes i know there is quite a bit of ingredients.. but hey.. i treat my girls like royalty, and the reciprosity is worth every cent)


Veg:
Mexican Bat Guano
Peruvian Seabird Guano
Earthworm Castings
Arctic Humus
Alfalfa Meal
Kelp Meal
Azomite
Trinity
Nutritional Yeast
Hemp Protein Powder
Hemp Oil
Liquid Gold
Bio-Silicone
Hygrozyme
Thunder

Photo Transition/20 Day Stretch:
Peruvian Seabird Guano
Earthworm Castings
Arctic Humus
Alfalfa Meal
Kelp Meal
Azomite
Trinity
Nutritional Yeast
Hemp Protein Powder
Hemp Oil
Banana Manna
Liquid Gold
Bio-Silicone
Hygrozyme
Thunder

Early Flower:
Indonesian Bat Guano
Peruvian Seabird Guano
Earthworm Castings
Arctic Humus
Alfalfa Meal
Kelp Meal
Azomite
Trinity
Nutritional Yeast
Hemp Protein Powder
Hemp Oil
Banana Manna
Liquid Gold
Bio-Silicone
Hygrozyme
Thunder



Mid Flower:
Bloom Sea Minerals
Indonesian Bat Guano
Earthworm Castings
Arctic Humus
Alfalfa Meal
Kelp Meal
Azomite
Trinity
Nutritional Yeast
Hemp Protein Powder
Hemp Oil
Banana Manna
Liquid Gold
Bio-Silicone
Hygrozyme
Thunder

Late Flower:
MBF Sanctuary Blend
Jamaican Bat Guano
Earthworm Castings
Arctic Humus
Alfalfa Meal
Kelp Meal
Azomite
Trinity
Brix+
Nutritional Yeast
Hemp Protein Powder
Hemp Oil
Banana Manna
Liquid Gold
Bio-Silicone
Hygrozyme
Thunder

Pre-Flush Cleanse:
Earthworm Castings
Arctic Humus
Alfalfa Meal
Grapes
Yerba Mate
Cacao
Cranberry
Cilantro
Young Coconut Milk
Wheat Malt
Epsom Salts
Azomite
Trinity
Hemp Protein Powder
Hemp Oil
Brix+
Banana Manna
Hygrozyme
Thunder

Flush:
Molasses
Epsom Salts
Citric Acid
Humic Acid
Cilantro
Hygrozyme
Thunder

Bio-Innoculants:
IMO Culture
EM
Azos (RTI)
Mykos (RTI)

Veg Foliar:
Kelp (Ascophyllum Nodsum and Durvillaea Potatorum)
Alfalfa (steeped, aerated and fermented blend)
Hemp Oil
Liquid Gold
Co2 (RTI)
Thunder

Transition Foliar:
Kelp (Ascophyllum Nodsum and Durvillaea Potatorum)
Alfalfa (steeped, aerated and fermented blend)
MBF Sanctuary Blend
Hemp Oil
Liquid Gold
CO2 (RTI)
Thunder

Bloom Foliar:
MBF Santuary Blend
Kelp (Ascophyllum Nodsum and Durvillaea Potatorum)
Alfalfa (steeped, aerated and fermented blend)
Hemp Oil
Liquid Gold
Purple Maxx (at 2-3 weeks)
Co2 (RTI)
Thunder


the nutritional yeast is for b-vitamins, the hemp oil and protein powder is for amino acids, the MBF sanctuary blend is a local fish emulsion (P-K rich), the alfalfa is for triacantonol (plant steroid), the arctic humus for biology and humus, the trinity (from roots organics) is for carbs, chelators, amino acids and wetting agents.. the azomite is for trace minerals, the banana manna, cacao, grapes, cranberry, yerba mate, coconut milk and wheat malt are for essential oils and brix.. and the cilantro (chelating properties), humic acids, molasses, citric acid, and epsom salts are to help get the flush off on the right foot...

o and last, but certainly not least, is the thunder.. this is a product a good friend of mine makes.. it is 3 components.. silver, for electrical conductivity.. humic acids.. and a crazy ass clay from an ore rich in high spin state monoatomic elements or ORMEs (orbitally rearranged monoatomic elements) and RRE's (rare earth elements).. now im not gonna really get into this stuff.. if you want info, google ORMEs.. but long story short, it is magical stuff. and i dont use that term lightly. the guy who makes it applied it to an avocado tree and it hasnt stopped fruiting.. FOR 3 YEARS!!! and the are softball sized avos!! not to mention he harvests sativas in september!!!

the hemp protein/oil is sorta experimental.. since it has every amino acid on the planet, not to mention omega 3, 6 and 9 (which supposedly act as wetting agents) and a whole other mess of phytochemical goodies, i figured it would be a good additive.

i am also curious to see if it has any insecti/fungicidal properties do to the omega oil content..

and keep in mind these teas are results of many hours of brainstorming, so any input or critizism is much appreciated!