rocksteady
Member
thanks man , very usefull
-
Happy Birthday ICMag! Been 20 years since Gypsy Nirvana created the forum! We are celebrating with a 4/20 Giveaway and by launching a new Patreon tier called "420club". You can read more here.
-
Important notice: ICMag's T.O.U. has been updated. Please review it here. For your convenience, it is also available in the main forum menu, under 'Quick Links"!
A Complete Guide to Topping, Training and Pruning
- Thread starter Kodiak
- Start date
M
mna
Looks like tying down is the best way for me , ill deff try that out
Farmer Stealth
Member
Yo Kodiak, great info and a BIG help to us noobs. Big thanks and MAD PROPS!
I'm just starting my third grow, five Super Lemon Haze(fem) and five Alaskin Ice(fem) in 4gal buckets under a 600w.
Any opinion on toping Haze plants or should I just LST?
I'm just starting my third grow, five Super Lemon Haze(fem) and five Alaskin Ice(fem) in 4gal buckets under a 600w.
Any opinion on toping Haze plants or should I just LST?
nice thread somewhat helpful eventhoug i knew most anybody know howlong a plant can survive without getting any water cause friend o mine has a plant but screwed up bij not watering and all .
it's completly dry leaves were a bit moist still gave it some water and light going to get it in a few days and hope it makes it thnx again
it's completly dry leaves were a bit moist still gave it some water and light going to get it in a few days and hope it makes it thnx again
mountainNick
Member
Kodiac great thread bro, I have a 'chrismas tree' super silver haze in my garden and wish i had trained it. Does anyone know if a deep chunk cross (mountain high mix) would respond well to training?
Will LST my double kush as soon as she gets some height
Many thanks for the info Kodiac, very interesting and a good to read
Peace
Will LST my double kush as soon as she gets some height
Many thanks for the info Kodiac, very interesting and a good to read
Peace
Thanks guys, I appreciate it.
Farmer Stealth, I would top and train the Haze extensively for some time before flowering her. Training sativas takes a long time. Four weeks of veg, at least, in order to get good results. Some plants do not like to be topped so LST'ing is the safer bet. You just have to try and see what happens. Good Luck!
bigtower, some plants have amazing regenerative power. I have managed to save plants from what looked like certain doom. One plant was down to a very short stem, no leafs or nothing and it still grew back to full size. Every green part of the plant is capable of photosynthesizing, including the stem. Give it some water and wait, it might take a while for the plant to recover if there is some life left in it.
..but if it's dead, it's dead.. you can probably tell by looking at it.. How people can forget to water their plants escapes me. There is a growing guide in my sig that might be of some help to your friend. It pretty much explains everything.
Good luck with your grow mountainNick, sounds like you have some good plants there
Farmer Stealth, I would top and train the Haze extensively for some time before flowering her. Training sativas takes a long time. Four weeks of veg, at least, in order to get good results. Some plants do not like to be topped so LST'ing is the safer bet. You just have to try and see what happens. Good Luck!
bigtower, some plants have amazing regenerative power. I have managed to save plants from what looked like certain doom. One plant was down to a very short stem, no leafs or nothing and it still grew back to full size. Every green part of the plant is capable of photosynthesizing, including the stem. Give it some water and wait, it might take a while for the plant to recover if there is some life left in it.
..but if it's dead, it's dead.. you can probably tell by looking at it.. How people can forget to water their plants escapes me. There is a growing guide in my sig that might be of some help to your friend. It pretty much explains everything.
Good luck with your grow mountainNick, sounds like you have some good plants there
cricketychronic
New member
comprehensive indeed. nice post.
H
hukkahtokes
awesome thread man i learned alot from it
Thanks guys
Hermaphroditism is genetically determined. Some distinction should be made between hermaphrodites that occur spontaneously and normal dioecious females that are forced into the condition by environmental stress. One could even agrue that any female that turns hermaphrodite was not a true female in the first place. If your normal female plant has no disposition towards it, it will not turn hermie on you no matter how much you stress it out. On the other hand, hermaphroditism is probably present in all plants to some degree since it is an ancestral trait. I just like to keep it simple.
This is the reason why it is a good idea to stress-test your plants in order to find out if they are prone to this dual-sex condition. I would rather grow and breed a plant that showed no signs of hermaphroditism than a plant that throws out nanners under stress.
On the other hand you might find a plant that has awesome traits but also some hermaphroditic tendencies. Then you might have to consider growing and breeding it nonetheless because it is a great plant in every other way. I think that's the case with East Coast Sour Diesel for example. There was an accidental hermaphroditic pollination somewhere along the genetic line which means that ECSD is somewhat prone to hermaphroditism in late flowering but that pollination was also partly responsible for making the plant what it is today. In some cases the pollen is sterile, so it really makes no difference. Pure Sativas are also known to throw out a few nanners in late flowering, another reason why they are more difficult to work with than indicas.
But generally speaking, plants that turn hermaphrodite are no good for breeding purposes because the trait is apparently dominant in cannabis plants. You can't make regular seeds with them and you cannot make good feminized seeds with them either because they will mostly yield hermaphroditic offspring.
Good feminized seeds come from a female that has almost no natural tendencies towards hermaphroditism. Then colloidal silver is used to poison the plant, which places it under so much stress that it puts out a few nanners. There are however more natural alternatives to achieve this, like messing around with light schedules, applying plant hormones and so on. The offspring will not be hermaphroditic because the mother resisted dual-sexuality under normal conditions. Feminized seeds can be made either by allowing the plant to self-pollinate or by pollinating a regular female with a hermaphroditic one. I think that the latter would be a better choice as you would also get genetic recombination instead of "inbreeding" the same genes. Naturally the normal female would also have to be a strong individual which has been properly stress tested and proven to be stable.
Unfortunately it seems like some seed companies like to cut corners and use any unstable plant that they can find. The result of this less than perfect breeding job is offspring that turn hermaphroditic in say 50% of the cases. Considering how much some of these seeds cost, it is a shame to say the least that they did not take the time to do the job properly. Others do take the time to ensure that only the most stable and genetically strong plants are used and the result is high quality feminized seeds that consistently produce normal female offspring.
Hermaphroditism is genetically determined. Some distinction should be made between hermaphrodites that occur spontaneously and normal dioecious females that are forced into the condition by environmental stress. One could even agrue that any female that turns hermaphrodite was not a true female in the first place. If your normal female plant has no disposition towards it, it will not turn hermie on you no matter how much you stress it out. On the other hand, hermaphroditism is probably present in all plants to some degree since it is an ancestral trait. I just like to keep it simple.
This is the reason why it is a good idea to stress-test your plants in order to find out if they are prone to this dual-sex condition. I would rather grow and breed a plant that showed no signs of hermaphroditism than a plant that throws out nanners under stress.
On the other hand you might find a plant that has awesome traits but also some hermaphroditic tendencies. Then you might have to consider growing and breeding it nonetheless because it is a great plant in every other way. I think that's the case with East Coast Sour Diesel for example. There was an accidental hermaphroditic pollination somewhere along the genetic line which means that ECSD is somewhat prone to hermaphroditism in late flowering but that pollination was also partly responsible for making the plant what it is today. In some cases the pollen is sterile, so it really makes no difference. Pure Sativas are also known to throw out a few nanners in late flowering, another reason why they are more difficult to work with than indicas.
But generally speaking, plants that turn hermaphrodite are no good for breeding purposes because the trait is apparently dominant in cannabis plants. You can't make regular seeds with them and you cannot make good feminized seeds with them either because they will mostly yield hermaphroditic offspring.
Good feminized seeds come from a female that has almost no natural tendencies towards hermaphroditism. Then colloidal silver is used to poison the plant, which places it under so much stress that it puts out a few nanners. There are however more natural alternatives to achieve this, like messing around with light schedules, applying plant hormones and so on. The offspring will not be hermaphroditic because the mother resisted dual-sexuality under normal conditions. Feminized seeds can be made either by allowing the plant to self-pollinate or by pollinating a regular female with a hermaphroditic one. I think that the latter would be a better choice as you would also get genetic recombination instead of "inbreeding" the same genes. Naturally the normal female would also have to be a strong individual which has been properly stress tested and proven to be stable.
Unfortunately it seems like some seed companies like to cut corners and use any unstable plant that they can find. The result of this less than perfect breeding job is offspring that turn hermaphroditic in say 50% of the cases. Considering how much some of these seeds cost, it is a shame to say the least that they did not take the time to do the job properly. Others do take the time to ensure that only the most stable and genetically strong plants are used and the result is high quality feminized seeds that consistently produce normal female offspring.
For future reference, this is what the incomplete pollen sacks look like on a hermaphroditic female.
You can see why they are called "bananas"..
You can see why they are called "bananas"..
D
djam
excellent info Kodiak . I'm learning allot reading through this thread
Young Pumpkin
Member
Wow........
Wow........
Kodiak
A Fine Read Indeed. I'm slowly learning how to search better but I did a lot of manual looking but not in soil.....oh well......Thought I'd find it in a more general area, lol. (Old Fart but forum noob but I'm learning)
I'd like to ask about something that got batted around a bit by Wade County, zenoonez, and yourself. Timing. This was a question or thought I posed on a "Topping Question" Thread............(then I found this, 2 days late as normal lol)
I agree with and top at least 1 week before 12/12. Gotta give those branches some fill time. Been doing it for years. But then I saw a vid (I'll spare the details) where he topped at 7 days exactly, 4 single stemmers, FIM or darn close. Amazing. I'm trying it as we speak. Even (got lucky) 1 fimmed, and 3 control plants. To see in more detail what this does for yield and height.
I won't repeat my self from the other thread, it might be worth looking at. But I'm so curious if anyone has heard of this, or knows a name, or even a bit of theory behind this idea. Why 7 days??? What if more or less days??? I picked my jaw from the floor many times.
I'm really taking a liking to this idea. At 6.5 weeks the oldest group will be the first indicator soon but visually the FIM is gonna out do the controls. I've done some normally branched ones recently. I do a rotating grow. Anyway food for thought I hope. The idea still sorta freaks me out. Strange, I agree.
Wow........
Kodiak
A Fine Read Indeed. I'm slowly learning how to search better but I did a lot of manual looking but not in soil.....oh well......Thought I'd find it in a more general area, lol. (Old Fart but forum noob but I'm learning)
I'd like to ask about something that got batted around a bit by Wade County, zenoonez, and yourself. Timing. This was a question or thought I posed on a "Topping Question" Thread............(then I found this, 2 days late as normal lol)
I agree with and top at least 1 week before 12/12. Gotta give those branches some fill time. Been doing it for years. But then I saw a vid (I'll spare the details) where he topped at 7 days exactly, 4 single stemmers, FIM or darn close. Amazing. I'm trying it as we speak. Even (got lucky) 1 fimmed, and 3 control plants. To see in more detail what this does for yield and height.
I won't repeat my self from the other thread, it might be worth looking at. But I'm so curious if anyone has heard of this, or knows a name, or even a bit of theory behind this idea. Why 7 days??? What if more or less days??? I picked my jaw from the floor many times.
I'm really taking a liking to this idea. At 6.5 weeks the oldest group will be the first indicator soon but visually the FIM is gonna out do the controls. I've done some normally branched ones recently. I do a rotating grow. Anyway food for thought I hope. The idea still sorta freaks me out. Strange, I agree.
Thanks
Yeah, I guess you are right. I should have posted this thread in the general growing forum instead of here in soil. Dunno, maybe I could ask the moderators to move it at some point..
Frankly, I do not know why he chose to top the plants 7 days into flowering. There is little evidence to support this theory but then again Monster Cropping also goes against what has been said about taking clones during flowering, with great results, so there is certainly room for discussion.
Generally speaking though, I would not recommend topping the plants once they go into flowering nor do I see how topping the plants seven days into flowering could be more effective than topping the plants in veg. The main shoot sends suppressive hormones down to the lower branches which stops them from growing. This is called apical dominance. By removing the main shoot, the lower branches become free to grow at full rate, which is why topping the plant causes the lower shoot to grow in order to take its place.
By removing the main shoot you are messing with the hormonal balance of the plant which is why it is best to top the plants in veg so that the plant has time to adapt and relocate energy in order to compensate for the lost tissue. This is why plants show stunted growth for a short period of time after being topped.
Flowering in plants is triggered by two things. The first part of the system is called the Circadian rhythm which is basically an internal biological clock that is closely tied to photosensitive pigments or phytochromes in the leafs that can tell the length of the day. The second part involves hormones, messenger molecules and specifically encoded proteins that tell the plant to start budding based on the information that it receives from the environment. The apical meristem or main shoot plays a large role in this hormone signalling so I do not honestly believe that removing it during flowering will be any better than doing it in veg.
I do suspect that removing the main shoot during flowering could only result in stunted growth since the plant will not be able to regulate its hormonal activity until the job has been reassigned to the lower shoots.
Call it a state of confusion for the plant. It stops all activity until it can figure out what is going on.
All speculation aside, I would say that if you have applied proper training beforehand in veg, there is no reason to wait until the plant is in flowering. Any potential benefit between the two approaches will be buffered out by more training in veg.
It is a safer bet to complete the training during veg as there are no guarantees that the plant will respond well to being topped in flowering.
I could be wrong and there migh be some scientific reason for doing this but in my experience vegetative growth slows down when the light schedule is changed and flowering is triggered. This also means that if you remove any shoots at this point, they will not be replaced by new growth at the same rate as if you do this during veg.
In order to find out if it really makes a difference, I think that you would have to top some of the plants during veg and some of the plants during flowering and compare the results. If the control plants are left untopped, you might not get clear results for comparison because topped plants behave differently from untopped ones. The plants would also have to be clones from the same mother plants in order for the results to be accurate.
Perhaps someone has more information on this theory and can illuminate the subject.
Yeah, I guess you are right. I should have posted this thread in the general growing forum instead of here in soil. Dunno, maybe I could ask the moderators to move it at some point..
Frankly, I do not know why he chose to top the plants 7 days into flowering. There is little evidence to support this theory but then again Monster Cropping also goes against what has been said about taking clones during flowering, with great results, so there is certainly room for discussion.
Generally speaking though, I would not recommend topping the plants once they go into flowering nor do I see how topping the plants seven days into flowering could be more effective than topping the plants in veg. The main shoot sends suppressive hormones down to the lower branches which stops them from growing. This is called apical dominance. By removing the main shoot, the lower branches become free to grow at full rate, which is why topping the plant causes the lower shoot to grow in order to take its place.
By removing the main shoot you are messing with the hormonal balance of the plant which is why it is best to top the plants in veg so that the plant has time to adapt and relocate energy in order to compensate for the lost tissue. This is why plants show stunted growth for a short period of time after being topped.
Flowering in plants is triggered by two things. The first part of the system is called the Circadian rhythm which is basically an internal biological clock that is closely tied to photosensitive pigments or phytochromes in the leafs that can tell the length of the day. The second part involves hormones, messenger molecules and specifically encoded proteins that tell the plant to start budding based on the information that it receives from the environment. The apical meristem or main shoot plays a large role in this hormone signalling so I do not honestly believe that removing it during flowering will be any better than doing it in veg.
I do suspect that removing the main shoot during flowering could only result in stunted growth since the plant will not be able to regulate its hormonal activity until the job has been reassigned to the lower shoots.
Call it a state of confusion for the plant. It stops all activity until it can figure out what is going on.
All speculation aside, I would say that if you have applied proper training beforehand in veg, there is no reason to wait until the plant is in flowering. Any potential benefit between the two approaches will be buffered out by more training in veg.
It is a safer bet to complete the training during veg as there are no guarantees that the plant will respond well to being topped in flowering.
I could be wrong and there migh be some scientific reason for doing this but in my experience vegetative growth slows down when the light schedule is changed and flowering is triggered. This also means that if you remove any shoots at this point, they will not be replaced by new growth at the same rate as if you do this during veg.
In order to find out if it really makes a difference, I think that you would have to top some of the plants during veg and some of the plants during flowering and compare the results. If the control plants are left untopped, you might not get clear results for comparison because topped plants behave differently from untopped ones. The plants would also have to be clones from the same mother plants in order for the results to be accurate.
Perhaps someone has more information on this theory and can illuminate the subject.
Young Pumpkin
Member
Thanx for your reply,
Perhaps soon I'll have a tad bit of some idea...hehe....But so far I've done 7 or 8 and I'm leaning more and more toward this idea. It just goes so much against my grain and experience too. Some singles, some branched, almost 7 weeks and younger. I'm about 75% sold on this but time will tell. At the top tho, its the oddest looking thing 'til you see its a cluster. The first 1 is getting fist sized.
Again, great read and thanx..............
Perhaps soon I'll have a tad bit of some idea...hehe....But so far I've done 7 or 8 and I'm leaning more and more toward this idea. It just goes so much against my grain and experience too. Some singles, some branched, almost 7 weeks and younger. I'm about 75% sold on this but time will tell. At the top tho, its the oddest looking thing 'til you see its a cluster. The first 1 is getting fist sized.
Again, great read and thanx..............
WhiteShark
New member
very good guide
wow never seen red pistals before on bud !
wow never seen red pistals before on bud !
