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CDPHE Emergency

fatigues

Active member
Veteran
Worrying about control and what aspect that would have on things is entirely reasonable.

What we have right now, however, is the illusion of "anything goes" - when really, what we have is "nothing goes" -- so as long as you want to risk jail, it's "anything goes".

I guess the point is what you want to contrast a proposed scheme to.

If you contrast a proposed scheme to a situation where legally, anything goes, then the scheme is very likely to look "bad" and a scheme which inherently limits options or raise prices or otherwise interferes in a "free market".

If you contrast a proposed scheme to the current sitution, then virtually anything is better than what's available now. That's a rather illusory way to assess how GOOD a scheme could be however, as in almost any case, a bad scheme is better than no scheme.

For my part, I'd suggest the usefulness of a scheme be assessed only as a stop-gap measure. Once it pretends to be a "final product" in this current prohibition market, it tends to highlight things poorly.

For example, let's go back to government monopoly weed for a moment. Let's suppose that the state decides it will put out a tender for a grow op to grow 12 tons of weed annually and supply it the state government dispensary. Weed must be in 12 different strains, in varying strengths (assume for a moment that product mix is at least defenceably "reasonable").

Assume that state government purports to say that the grower can only grow for the government - nobody else. Strict controls put in place so supply only goes to state. Chances of diversion are GREATLY reduced (though never eliminated). Prosecution under current Federal regime are ZERO under such a scheme for the forseeable future. (Conspiracy theorists can stop reading now.)

State Gov further stipulates that the maximum bid they will consider receiving a tender for is $30 an ounce.

Companies can bid less than that to win tender. Ok?

Assume that a bunch of companies bid and somebody wins a tender for supplying that quantity of weed for an average price of $14 an ounce.

State dispensary sells weed at $30 an ounce (average) to patients. There is no physical retail dispensary. All weed is instead delivered by courier to the patient's home.

Assume the grower makes a reasonable return on investment capital with that price, call it 20%. Risk of loss is nil, provided that costs can be contained.

What will happen in this scenario?

1. Most patients will buy the weed they need, cheaply.
2. Many patients will buy more than they need, cheaply. Most of those who do, will share it with friends, but sizeable numbers will not.
3. A sizeable number will still seek to flip that weed on the market. They will make money, more than paying for their own supply with some extra $$ left over, too. Because their risk is small and their supply regular and guaranteed, they will be prepared to flip it for less than market price. This will increase the supply of weed and put a downward price pressure on the black market.

Initial result - patients get the weed they need cheaply, some patients make a black market profit, weed growers make less.

Interim result - some patients see the potential for gain. They will pressure their doctor to increase their dosage and some of those will do so. They will divert even more cheap weed to the black market as the scheme progresses in time. Prohibitionists loudly complain - and those with a vested interest in current black market do too. Essentially, every ounce grown by the legal monopolist is sold. Supply increases, downward price pressure on black market results somewhat. Growers complain. Mexican Cartels are a little pissed.

Final stage: A certain portion of public is "outraged" that gov't weed is being sold and flipped to black market. Many patients making increasing demands for unreasonable dosages just to make a buck. Most patients acting within confines of rules without flipping it say their cheap and fair supply is being threatened by a few bad apples (which, in fairness, is a lot higher a number of bad apples than the legal patients would prefer to admit). Downward price pressure in market makes illegal growers and sellers annoyed.

Assume monopolist grower can adjust his supply upwards as needed at that price, to respond to increasing demands of the system and to eliminate shortages in the medium term (shortages of product to legal patients caused by demand for cheap products to be bought and flipped is the supply problem inherent in this scenario I think. That's the part where the free marketers predictions of doom will bear some fruit.).

Isn't it most likely in this whole scenario that the only thing that is likely to happen is that as long as the government can withstand public pressure, the supply of cheap marijuana goes up - forcing black market prices downwards somewhat, patients who need the price break are happy - and the world carries on? Isn't that the most likely scenario?



Some would say that the problem of flipping the MMJ is depriving the grower of his "fair" price, but so what? Nobody is forcing him to bid at that price. He chose to do it and is making a ROI which is essentially guaranteed (like all regulated monopolists under Public Utility Price Regulation, I might add). Wouldn't that be a good thing, overall, compared to what we have now, from the patient's perspective?

Assuming you aren't a grower complaining about a somewhat reduced price for your existing product, that is.
 

Balazar

Member
IMO the ideal situation would be where the government just issues licenses to growers and distributors just like alcohol and tobacco producers and serving establishments. Let capitalism push the market down through competition. They will probably have heavy taxes on it just like alcohol and tobacco and move it to schedule II so that insurance companies would insure patients that cant afford it. Then it would be just like any other pharmaceutical sold today.

I see a few blocks on this so let me lay out the obstacles.

1st pharmaceutical companies would lobby against it cause it would take a huge chuck out of there profits.
2nd the DEA would do anything they could to oppose it because their funding would be cut and many jobs would disappear.
3rd tobacco companies would jump all over it and local growers would become the equivalent of micro brewers offering exotic strains and better potency for a little bit more money.
4th insurance companies would have a nightmare paying out for all of the people that are just getting high along with the patients in desperate need. (im already paying for a bunch of junkies with painkiller and bennie addictions ATM so I could care less about this)
5th the black market would go to hell because everyone would try to get a prescription.
6th if it got that far pharma and insurance companies would start lobbying for full legalization so they could label it a recreational drug and not have to pay for so much abuse of the system. Patients with vast needs for medicine would take THC pills and tinctures instead of eating fatty foods and inhaling smoke from a pipe.

No matter how you go with this there is opposition that will loose money on legalization thats why it has been in limbo for so long.
 
Health Canada supplies middle of the road weed which they pay the princely sum of $10 per OUNCE to their "monopolist" grower. (A grower which turns a PROFIT at that price, too, I might add.)

I´m not sure about that price. Short of throwing some seeds out in the field behind the house then throwing the unmanicured buds in a paper sack I don`t see how you can produce a quality product for anywhere near this price. Possibly there are hidden subsidies that Health Canada is keeping under wraps?

I saw a news story recently how Holland is seeing demand falling for it´s state-produced medicinal cannabis. It seems the price is lower in the coffeeshops and the quality is much higher with much better variety. The coffeeshops sell the medicine to cardholders for €5 a gram, about $7.42 at current exchange rates.

I imagine those prices are closer to reality for now.
 

fatigues

Active member
Veteran
I´m not sure about that price. Short of throwing some seeds out in the field behind the house then throwing the unmanicured buds in a paper sack I don`t see how you can produce a quality product for anywhere near this price. Possibly there are hidden subsidies that Health Canada is keeping under wraps?

It's possible, but given the nature of the Information requested and published...I doubt it.

It's amazing what not having to pay to hide your operation and being able to grow in the open - paying fairly low wages - will do for your costs, hmm?

The prices noted above were obtained under a Access to Information Act request by a large Canadian newspaper. The link to the original article is here.

The quote is as follows:

Records obtained under the Access to Information Act show that Health Canada pays $328.75 for each kilogram of bulk medical marijuana produced by Prairie Plant Systems Inc.


The company currently has a $10.3-million contract with Health Canada, which expires at the end of September, to grow standardized medical marijuana in an abandoned mine shaft in Flin Flon, Man.


Health Canada, in turn, sells the marijuana to a small group of authorized users for $150 – plus GST – for each 30-gram bag of ground-up flowering tops, with a strength of up to 14 per cent THC, the main active ingredient. That works out to $5,000 for each kilogram, or a markup of more than 1,500 per cent.
 

funkfingers

Long haired country boy
Veteran
Look at what has happened to the other industries the government has taken control of ie, the farming industry. Now is it not only difficult, but it's damn near impossible for a farmer to make any money, let alone pay for his land to live on and propagate. Not only do I think this is a bad idea, I think it's outright horrible, I mean we are talking about the same people who on a consistent basis have got caught in outright lies and purposeful misconceptions to work to their advantage. I am sick of the way america has become run by corporate greed,the rich get richer and the poor get poorer.

I also feel that the quality of medicine would be greatly compromised, as well as the care that is given to each individual patient. We all know that the care that is required to take care of 20 plants, and still get quality medicinal herb, is realistically not possible when talking about gigantic farms of it. There is no way that this is possible, as there are few places where it can be left to grow on it's own and still produce a quality product. I'm all for lowering prices so that it is affordable for sick people, but I still believe that these people(myself included) would rather procure their medicine from someone who knows exactly what goes into it.

We the people need to make our voices heard on this issue and let our government know what we want from them. After all our taxes are what's paying for their high-end health care, and hefty retirement plans. Let's make our government work for us, these people are supposed to represent what we the people want, not tell us what we need.

sorry for the rant.

funk
 
Let's make our government work for us, these people are supposed to represent what we the people want, not tell us what we need.

The whole thing about the Canadian medicinal cannabis is a joke, just like the Canadian government itself. They don´t care about helping people, they are obligated to produce it because of court cases that went against the government.

Look at how many different types of headache relievers are on the shelf at your local pharmacy. If one single medical problem requires so many different options to alleviate it does it make sense that EVERY medical problem can be alleviated by ONE option (strain) of cannabis?

If you read the article about Canadian production you will see they are producing schwag shake poorly grown in an abandoned mineshaft in Manitoba and sold at 1500% markup by a government who doesn´t want to do it in the first place.

Medicinal cannabis patients deserve MUCH better.
 
IMO the ideal situation would be where the government just issues licenses to growers and distributors just like alcohol and tobacco producers and serving establishments. Let capitalism push the market down through competition.

absolutely agree! it's always 'we need free market capitalism in this country'...until AIG and GM need our money, or until a bunch of entrepreneurial ganja smokers and connoisseurs figure out a way to market their goods and expand their industry...then we need to shut it all down.

license me, tax me, and leave me the f$%k alone.
 
The whole thing about the Canadian medicinal cannabis is a joke, just like the Canadian government itself. They don´t care about helping people, they are obligated to produce it because of court cases that went against the government.

Look at how many different types of headache relievers are on the shelf at your local pharmacy. If one single medical problem requires so many different options to alleviate it does it make sense that EVERY medical problem can be alleviated by ONE option (strain) of cannabis?

If you read the article about Canadian production you will see they are producing schwag shake poorly grown in an abandoned mineshaft in Manitoba and sold at 1500% markup by a government who doesn´t want to do it in the first place.

Medicinal cannabis patients deserve MUCH better.

Thank you, using Canada's medical system is a joke. Let the people control it, over the years we have seen the drastic increase in potency of marijuana not because of government intervention, but pure capitalism.

Keep the government's hands outta my life and the fuck outta my medicine.

:joint:
 
absolutely agree! it's always 'we need free market capitalism in this country'...until AIG and GM need our money, or until a bunch of entrepreneurial ganja smokers and connoisseurs figure out a way to market their goods and expand their industry...then we need to shut it all down.

license me, tax me, and leave me the f$%k alone.

:joint:
 

BiG H3rB Tr3E

"No problem can be solved from the same level of c
Veteran
The whole thing about the Canadian medicinal cannabis is a joke, just like the Canadian government itself. They don´t care about helping people, they are obligated to produce it because of court cases that went against the government.

Look at how many different types of headache relievers are on the shelf at your local pharmacy. If one single medical problem requires so many different options to alleviate it does it make sense that EVERY medical problem can be alleviated by ONE option (strain) of cannabis?

If you read the article about Canadian production you will see they are producing schwag shake poorly grown in an abandoned mineshaft in Manitoba and sold at 1500% markup by a government who doesn´t want to do it in the first place.

Medicinal cannabis patients deserve MUCH better.


I have to seriously disagree, canada is holding its own, far beyond what we have done in USA. Goverment always grow shitty weed, its because they have better shit on thier list to do, on the other hand, fellows like us who are devoted to the ganja plant can produce some seriously top notch cannabis. Canada is the only country that has a cannabis sales system run by its goverement, it may be over priced shitty weed, but whens the last time uncle sam sent you some cannabis? Also, in canada, providers are given cards so that if they were pulled over by the RCMP (the equivilant of USA's drug enforcement agency) that you can show them this card and not have any trouble. Ive heard people being pulled over with multiple pounds of hash and not being arrested or have it confiscated because of having their card.

ps. Seed sales are completly legal in canada!!!!
 
I have to seriously disagree, canada is holding its own, far beyond what we have done in USA. Goverment always grow shitty weed, its because they have better shit on thier list to do, on the other hand, fellows like us who are devoted to the ganja plant can produce some seriously top notch cannabis. Canada is the only country that has a cannabis sales system run by its goverement, it may be over priced shitty weed, but whens the last time uncle sam sent you some cannabis? Also, in canada, providers are given cards so that if they were pulled over by the RCMP (the equivilant of USA's drug enforcement agency) that you can show them this card and not have any trouble. Ive heard people being pulled over with multiple pounds of hash and not being arrested or have it confiscated because of having their card.

ps. Seed sales are completly legal in canada!!!!


I don't want Uncle Sam mailing me weed, its not in the federal governments job description.(and they don't need to screw anything up more than it already is.) Just because their system is slightly better than ours does not make it a good model for this country. Pure unadulterated Capitalism will always beat a government monopoly.

Also i don't want to get into an argument but the RCMP is far from being the equivalent of the DEA. Go to wikipedia and you can educate yourself on how the RCMP function. They are the entire nation's police force, whether it be municipal police, provincial, or federal. Unlike the DEA the RCMP enforce laws ranging from jaywalking to speeding to murder.

The Drug Enforcement Agency's mission statement is here:
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]The mission of the Drug Enforcement Administration (DEA) is to enforce the controlled substances laws and regulations of the United States and bring to the criminal and civil justice system of the United States, or any other competent jurisdiction, those organizations and principal members of organizations, involved in the growing, manufacture, or distribution of controlled substances appearing in or destined for illicit traffic in the United States; and to recommend and support non-enforcement programs aimed at reducing the availability of illicit controlled substances on the domestic and international markets. [/SIZE][/FONT]

Whereas the RCMP's mission statement can be found below:
The RCMP is Canada's national police service. Proud of our traditions and confident in meeting future challenges, we commit to preserve the peace, uphold the law and provide quality service in partnership with our communities.


SO as you can see the DEA does not equal RCMP in any way.
 
K

Kola Radical

Someday the people will get fed up with being over regulated and over ruled by rich, criminals and put a stop to fascist governments.

It wouldn't be that hard to to. Our government still congratulates itself daily for winning World War II. It is time to bring it up to date and reorganize the whole fucking, broken, mess.
 

fatigues

Active member
Veteran
Goverment always grow shitty weed, its because they have better shit on thier list to do, on the other hand, fellows like us who are devoted to the ganja plant can produce some seriously top notch cannabis.

Look - we can beat about the bush but...why bother. What you said? That's crap.

First of all, it's not like they called a janitor on Parliament Hill to transfer over to their "Indifferent Weed Division" at Health Canada. They contracted a third party to grow it: a capitalist grower. That third party knows how to grow weed - and they've been doing it for quite a while now, too. They do it efficiently and cheaply -- and deliver their product on time.

Moreover, it's carefully tested and monitored with spectography giving precise measurements, with multiple randomly selected samples, from each batch. It would be a fair comment to say that Health Canada's weed is among the most, if not the MOST carefully monitored and rigorously laboratory-tested weed in the world. No other commercial grower goes to such exceptional qualitative analysis of their crop. (No other commecial grower has the vast governmental lab resources to do what Health Canada does to randomly test test all of these samples).

Prairie Medical delivers their weed to meet the exact specifications of the client. And that's the only "problem" with their weed.

It's pre-ground weed, so by design, that tends to knock off some trichs that most would would rather were knocked off only in your grinder just before you were about to smoke it. But that's what the client (in this case, Health Canada) has asked for. Many MS and palliative care patients can't really use a grinder very well. The packaging choice is Health Canada's - not the grower's.

The real issue, however, is the choice of strain and its deliberately selected middle-of-the-road strength. That's not a function of "better things to do", in the sense that indifferent product is a result of not caring about what the product is. They do care. A LOT. And that's WHY it's middle-of-the-road weed. It's a strain specifically and carefully selected to be indifferent, middle-of-the-road weed. It's because they care about the product that they selected this strain (Believed to be NL #5, by the way). If they wanted to grow a variety of strains with differing strengths, they could easily do so. But they don't want to. For political reasons, they deliberately choose not to do this. The grower has a profit motive, but the reseller does not. They have another agenda at work.

They grow middle-of-the-road weed because the government WANTS to grow middle-of-the-road weed. This is because if they were growing top-notch high THC strains, the Government fears the weed would be flipped on the market for a profit by medical marijuana card holders. It would then be a story in the press - and that's a story the government does not want voters reading about. The Canadian Government is much happier to read stories in the press about most MMJ patients who don't want to buy their weed. This is for the very good reason that Health Canada only grows it because the courts gave them no other choice.

There is no inherent magic in capitalism. There is no "make it more dank" switch that a large illegal commercial grower has to just "flick on" that another large commercial grower (who happens to be legally growing for sale to Health Canada) mystically loses and can't "flick on" anymore.

Growing MMJ for resale is an application of scientific techniques and practices from the field of botany in general and horticulture/agriculture, specifically. It's not casting a spell. The buds don't telepathically check to see if you're a strict constructionist in terms of the grower's constitutional interpretation bias.

Jeez. Some of you guys could benefit from more dank weed and a little less dank ideology.
 
Look - we can beat about the bush but...why bother. What you said? That's crap.

First of all, it's not like they called a janitor on Parliament Hill to transfer over to their "Indifferent Weed Division". They contracted a third party to grow it: a capitalist grower. That third party knows how to grow weed - and they've been doing it for quite a while now, too. They do it efficiently and cheaply -- and deliver their product on time.

It's pre-ground weed, so by design, that tends to knock off some trichs that most would would rather were knocked off only in your grinder just before you were about to smoke it. But that's what the client (in this case, Health Canada) has asked for. Many MS and palliative care patients can't really use a grinder very well. The packaging choice is Health Canada's - not the grower's.

The real issue, however, is the choice of strain and its deliberately selected middle-of-the-road strength. That's not a function of "better things to do", in the sense that indifferent product is a result of not caring about what the product is. They do care. A LOT. And that's WHY it's middle-of-the-road weed. It's a strain specifically and carefully selected to be indifferent, middle-of-the-road weed. It's because they care about the product that they selected this strain. If they wanted to grow a variety of strains with differing strengths, they could easily do so. But they don't want to. For political reasons, they deliberately choose not to do this. The grower has a profit motive, but the reseller does not. They have another agenda at work.

They grow middle-of-the-road weed because the government WANTS to grow middle-of-the-road weed. This is because if they were growing top-notch high THC strains, the Government fears the weed would be flipped on the market for a profit by medical marijuana card holders. It would then be a story in the press - and that's a story the government does not want voters reading about. The Canadian Government is much happier to read stories in the press about most MMJ patients who don't want to buy their weed. This is for the very good reason that Health Canada only grows it because the courts gave them no other choice.

There is no inherent magic in capitalism. There is no "make it more dank" switch that a large illegal commercial grower has to just "flick on" that another large commercial grower (who happens to be legally growing for sale to Health Canada) mystically loses and can't "flick on" anymore.

Growing MMJ for resale is an application of scientific techniques and practices from the field of botany in general and horticulture/agriculture, specifically. It's not casting a spell. The buds don't telpathically check to see if you're a strict constructionist in terms of the grower's constitutional interpretation bias.

Jeez. Some of you guys could benefit from more dank weed and a little less dank ideology.

Im still trying to see the benefit in forcing a government that doesn't want to grow weed into doing just that then selling that to people that are not happy with it?? Your trying to say this system is better?!?!?!?

I mean come on your saying you want the government to grow sub-standard medicine for the people who need it the most?!?! (MS/pallative care pts)

This is one of the most ridiculous arguments i have ever heard.

next.

p.s. i got all the locally grown dank i need my friend.

:joint:
 

sac beh

Member
There is no inherent magic in capitalism. There is no "make it more dank" switch that a large illegal commercial grower has to just "flick on" that another large commercial grower (who happens to be legally growing for sale to Health Canada) mystically loses and can't "flick on" anymore.

Growing MMJ for resale is an application of scientific techniques and practices from the field of botany in general and horticulture/agriculture, specifically. It's not casting a spell. The buds don't telpathically check to see if you're a strict constructionist in terms of the grower's constitutional interpretation bias.

fatigues is right on here. Its important to understand these processes and not just blame government for this or that reason. It is not the fault of socialism or the government machine per se that they don't produce premium, high-THC cannabis. There are specific political motivations for this.

This is an argument for non-government produced cannabis in order to provide more variety, more strains, and more potent medicine. BUT, as fatigues points out, the government does and can employ the knowledge of experts to produce a good product, even though it be mid-grade. If the political and PR-related motivations were removed, we could imagine an affordable, effective government distribution of varied types of cannabis.

I mean come on your saying you want the government to grow sub-standard medicine for the people who need it the most?!?! (MS/pallative care pts)

This is one of the most ridiculous arguments i have ever heard.

I think--correct me if I'm wrong--what fatigues is trying to say here is not that the government system is necessarily hands-down better, but just that the out-of-hand dismissal of a government program without good understanding of the politics behind it doesn't doesn't make sense.
 

fatigues

Active member
Veteran
Im still trying to see the benefit in forcing a government that doesn't want to grow weed into doing just that then selling that to people that are not happy with it?? Your trying to say this system is better?!?!?!?

Slow down.

I didn't say this specific program was a model to follow -- other than with respect to costs. However, I did say earlier that this specific program delivers weed to patients more efficiently and at a cheaper cost to the patient. And that remains true, too. This weed could be sold to patients for $30 an ounce, and the government would STILL make money on it. That is a VASTLY different price than would be set by an unregulated market.

The only knock on the program is that the politics involved have motivated policy choices which restrict product selection and strengths and cause it to increase the cost of the weed by 1500% at retail. But those are mere policy choices. Some gov't official CHOSE to do that to meet a politically motivated request that had in mind something other than the interests of the patient. You can fix those policy choices in 10 seconds if you wanted to.

Is selling government grown weed to MMJ patients at VASTLY below black market prices economically viable? Damned right it is. Would that serve patients needs better than going to "caregivers" and dispensaries? Damned right it would.

Would it serve the needs of those who seek to profit from growing weed - either generally, or specifically MMJ?

No. It most certainly would not. But let's not confuse the interests of MMJ patients with the interests of MMJ growers and resellers; those interests are most DEFINITELY not the same.
 

sac beh

Member
But let's not confuse the interests of MMJ patients with the interests of MMJ growers and resellers; those interests are most DEFINITELY not the same.

Good point. Also remember that rights of people to grow the plant is a separate issue also. In other words, saying that in the debate about distribution of meds to patients the patients are most important is one issue. A separate issue is allowing people the right to grow a natural plant! Remembering this really helps to untangle the issue of government vs. private medical cannabis distribution. The benefits to private growers should certainly not be a deciding factor for a program whose goal is to provide affordable, quality medicine to patients.

IF it turns out that private dispensaries can provide more affordable higher quality medicine to patients, then that is a good argument for them. But be careful to separate the growers'/distrubters' profit-motive in deciding that and put the patients' intereset first (something that, btw, corporate drug distributors and pharmaceuticals certainly do not do).
 
I have stated earlier in this thread what benefits I think could be gained from government intervention but to have the government producing and delivering the medicine as Canada is currently doing is not the answer.

To throw a completely different tack, I think the better way to think of medicinal cannabis is along the lines of organic foods and herbs with medicinal properties.

Rather than treat cannabis like a pill from the pharmacy I think a better model is more like a farmers market and being able to add cannabis to a holistic view of health like you would add healthy organic vegetables to your diet for overall health.

Just like you can state the health benefits from fresh fruits and vegetables, and the health properties of certain herbs, you can state a list of the benefits of medicinal cannabis. The list of benefits will continue to grow as clinical studies come forth from universities and medical testing labs.

At that point products delivering measurable doses of certain cannabinoids used to treat a specific condition can be developed, while allowing the overall general health and wellbeing and currently recognized medical treatments to be handled through a caregiver/coop/dispensary model.

This isn´t a zero sum, either-or situation we´re in. It´s a wide open opportunity to get medicinal cannabis correct and we can mix and match as we see fit.
 

BiG H3rB Tr3E

"No problem can be solved from the same level of c
Veteran
I think some of you need to put down the weed and step away from the computer.... none of you even realized the point I was trying to make, and it certainly had nothing to do with pressuring goverments into producing medical grade cannabis for legitimate patients....
 
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