Growroom Electricity and Wiring

[praisehim.]

madpenguin:: just trying to be safe here, but does it matter what shape the holes in the receptacle are ? cause the panels running 240 plugs AND 120 plugs.. so im guessing it would need a receptacle with an "L" shaped hole at the bottom ? or does it really matter ?
im gonna take pics tomorrow of everything an post it up just to make sure im doing everything right...thanks for your help , much appreciated.

 

[madpenguin]

Madpenguin,

First, before I begin... A huge thank you! This is definitely the toughest part to figure out for us as far as the construction of our room is concerned. Building walls, hanging rock etc. is no problem, but running the wiring is still eluding us. I hope that I am using terms correctly below for you.

Here goes....

So here is a pic of the breaker box where we will be drawing the power from:

The pic is a little blurry, but there are a couple of open double pole 50 amp breakers installed.
http://www.icmag.com/ic/album.php?albumid=11034&pictureid=214922

Counting all bends, we will need to run the power about 50' or less to the sub panel.

Here is a list of equipment that we will be using:
4 1000w digital ballast (they can be either 220 or 110)
3 oscillating fans Amps: .54-1.10 Watts: 63-114
4 total fluorescent light fixtures 64w each
1 648w t5 fixture
3 8" Fans that say that max watt is 184w each

So I get 1798w on the 110 side and 4000 on the 220 side.

In the future, I am not 100% sure, but to give you an idea for overkill.
AC 13amp 220volt at max
2 400 watt ballasts
1 648w t5 fixture
1 184w fan
1 Dehumidier 850w
2 pumps about 350w each

So for our extra I get another 13amp on 220 and 3182watts on 110 - That should be overkill numbers, as I don't intend on using this actual equipment right now, but looked up some number and overshot on all the size of equipment. I doubt that we will ever get close to that but I wanted to try to think of everything because I know that there is somethings that I wont think of.

When I was talking about the breakers that I saw at lowes earlier by the way, here is what i was talking about:

But I will basically do whatever you tell me. Just let me know what type of wire, box, and fuses that I want and I will get it done and post some pics!

Thanks again!!!!!

Ok. I haven't see a quad breaker in quite awhile. As long as that takes up 4 spaces, which I'm pretty sure it does, you can use that in your sub. Looks like a murray breaker by the type designation so if you get that particular one, make sure you get the right sub panel. Actually, That breaker may only take up 2 spaces. They are slimline breakers but the way they stab onto the hot bus gives you a 30A DP and 2 20A single pole breakers. The first 20 and 30 are on phase LI and the second 30 and last 20 are on phase L2. Because the handles are joined on the 30A section, if you get an over load, arc or ground fault, both 30's will trip like they should.

I don't see too much of a point with those quad breakers except for the fact that it automatically balances out your panel as far as return load on the feeder neutral goes, which is a good thing. Just make sure you get the right loadcenter that matches that breaker.

If you say you have a couple spare 50A double pole breakers back in the main panel, then I would go ahead and use one of them to feed your new sub panel. You would need #6 AWG copper romex for your feeder cable if you used a 50A main breaker in your main panel to feed the sub. That would be 6/3 with ground romex. It will have a red, black, white and then bare copper conductor in it.

I've went into great detail about how to wire up a sub panel on this thread so all the information you need is already here.

I will say that that breaker probably won't cut it for you. You should run your 4 1kw lights at 240v. That will be about 20A. If your going to add an AC thast draws 13A at 240v, that 30A breaker will trip every time the AC comes on. My 8k btu draws somewhere around 8-10 amps at 120v if I'm not mistaken. Make sure you have your specs right. If your AC draws 13A at 240v that's a pretty beefy AC unit.

If your calcs are right your drawing 40A at 120v and 30A at 240v..... Did you say you only had a 70A main breaker back in your main panel? You need to trim some stuff out man. It's just not going to work. Not only is the breaker you mentioned not going to work, but you'll be tripping your main disconnect at the main panel.

Sit down and brain storm some more and see what you can cut out of the equation. That or get your landlord to spring for a service upgrade but good luck on that one.

Your best bet is to spring for a regular loadcenter that can accommodate atleast 6-8 breakers. I'd forget about using that quad breaker personally. the guts of a Siemens loadcenter are kinda cheaply constructed but atleast they use a copper hot buss. Buy a 125a MLO Siemens loadcenter. Should be listed as 8/16 for the breaker capacity or something along those lines.

http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?action=productDetail&productId=12561-1318-ELC125ML8S&lpage=none

$25 bucks at lowes. Then stick with regular single pole and double pole breakers for your receptacles in the grow room.

That's what I would do anyway. Your still going to need to reduce your load demand somehow for the grow room. For a 70A main back in the main panel you will. Or rather, if you can get your total amperage below 50A for your grow room, that will still leave you with 20A for the house. But when a fridge compressor kicks on, that can draw quite a bit. If you happen to be nuking some food in the microwave, the fridge kicks on, plus your bloom and veg rooms are running at full capacity, don't be suprised if you throw your 70A main....

 

[madpenguin]

madpenguin:: just trying to be safe here, but does it matter what shape the holes in the receptacle are ? cause the panels running 240 plugs AND 120 plugs.. so im guessing it would need a receptacle with an "L" shaped hole at the bottom ? or does it really matter ?
im gonna take pics tomorrow of everything an post it up just to make sure im doing everything right...thanks for your help , much appreciated.

I've posted all the NEMA receptacles here on this thread. If you are able to plug a 120v appliance into a 240v receptacle, your going to fry that 120v appliance. So if I'm understanding you correctly, yes. It does matter. Post some pics or go back a few pages and tell me what receptacle designations you are talking about and whether they are 120 or 240v fed.

 

[madpenguin]

@mad penguin. I would have taken pics but my camera wasn't working for a minute. But I will be back with pics tomorrow. I looked up on knob and tube wiring and haven't seen anything like it at my house. But idk. I will have pics. I think i may have found some "knobs" running along my basement ceiling. But they are vacant and no cords are running through them. But anyway I will bring back pics.

Someone could have retrofitted your house and ripped all that crap out. You really have to start pulling every receptacle to see what type of wire is feeding it. If it's black cloth wire then you still have K&T in the walls.

And what i meant in my last post was. What I wanted to do was. Take one outlet that runs on a different fuse then the one I am already running on, and tap into that outlet and run the new outlet up to my room.

Sure. If the bottom screw terminals of the receptacle are free, just fish a new piece of romex in the box. Black to brass and white to silver. Then run that new piece of romex to your grow room and old work a new receptacle outlet.

And I wanted to know what the best way to do that was.

I have a dedicated post on this thread about how to old work a circuit. It's all here on this thread.

I've heard of the "pigtail" method, but wasn't sure if that was safe or how any of this works.

It's just personal preference.



That's pigtailing. The guy has 2 incoming white wires and 2 incoming black wires. There was no need to pigtail in this instance because the receptacle has 2 brass crews and 2 silver screws. He could have just attached both incoming wires to the receptacle and avoided the wirenuts and pigtails all together.

One benifit of pigtailing is that if you get a loose connection at a receptacle, any downstream receptacles will not loose power. Just the receptacle that you pigtailed to will loose power. Makes it ALOT easier to trouble shoot when receptacles stop working if you pigtail. You must pigtail on a Multi Wire Branch Circuit as has been stated on this thread numerous times. But you are not working with a MWBC to my knowledge so do whatever you wish.

I have an outlet the runs on the opposite side of a wall that happens to be the inside of my closet. I'm going to map out the aprox. location of the outlet from the attic and drill a hole and run the line down. Now if everything is correct I can cut a hole into the wall in my closet and wire up into the existing outlet. Does this sound like a reasonable idea?

Sure. Just look at the post I made about old working circuits.
http://media.rd.com/rd/images/rdc/family-handyman/2002/11/moving-electrical-boxes-01-af.jpg

 

[growclean]

@mad. No worries, we are in a commercial space and have a couple of hundred amps free, we can take whatever we need from the main. I still am not sure 100% that I get the double pole thing? Does that only give me 50amps total?

 

[madpenguin]

@mad. No worries, we are in a commercial space and have a couple of hundred amps free, we can take whatever we need from the main. I still am not sure 100% that I get the double pole thing? Does that only give me 50amps total?

Wait... Are you on 3 phase power? I just assumed you were in a house. Please state how many incoming hots feed the panel, and if you know how to safely use a multimeter that is rated for atleast 600v, tell me what the voltage potential is between each hot phase and the neutral.

This changes things dramatically.

Yes, a double pole 50A breaker will only give you 50A at 240v. You don't get 50A per leg for a total of 100A. The 50A DP breaker will trip when it see's a maximum of 50A (or slightly more).

 

[madpenguin]

I looked at that fuzzy pic of your panel again. Looks like single phase service and it's a sub panel to boot. Your neutrals and grounds are isolated so that means you have to have a main disconnect further upstream.

What is the breaker that feeds this panel rated for? Go back to the main panel that feeds the one in the pic and find the breaker that feeds the sub panel in the pic. Need to know what that breaker is rated for ampacity wise....

 

[growclean]

Ok, not out their at the moment. But they had a bunch of compressors, etc, that they ran off this panel previsously. That is where the empty double pole 50 come from. They were formerly hot, but are now not.

 

[madpenguin]

Would still help to get a voltage reading between both hot phases along with phase A to neutral and phase B to neutral.

Sure looks like a single phase 120/240 service to me tho.... I hate to guess however.

When you get back out there, tell me what the breaker rating is that feeds the panel.

Also, look at the conductors that feed the panel. Tell me what they say on them. If they have no writing on them, then look for the cable sheath that contains them all and tell me what the writing says on that.

BTW, all those breakers that don't have any conductors attached to them? They are in the "on" position. Please turn them off. ;-)

 

[growclean]

Ok. Running out there in a bit. Will check that out and let you know.

 

[praisehim.]

hey MADPENGUIN, heres the main breaker in my room.. i realized that the 240 v plug..which is 4 feet below it isnt even running..theres no breaker for it. see how theres that empty slot ? how do i install a new 2 pole breaker ? an then what wires do i need to hook up the subpanel ?



heres a pic of the sub panel..my frined gave it to me.. i'used it an it works great..



and this right here is the 240v plug..which is hooked up to that empty slot i belive....it only has 3 wires also...all 6 gage..

any ideas or help is really really appreciated.. thanks a million !

 

[praisehim.]

plug didnt show.here it is..

 

[madpenguin]

Personally, I'd abandon the receptacle and fish new wire down to the outlet box. Mount the sub panel right over the outlet box so the wires come thru the knockout on the right hand side of the panel. Try to find a grommet or NM connector to use for that large knockout.

I have so many people asking questions, I'm getting confused. It looks like you should have a disconnect further up stream. Why feed 2 small sub panels when you can just rip all that shit out and replace it with a 12/24 Main Breaker Panel?

Go find a disconnect up stream and tell me what those feeder wires say that fire up the first panel. I can see white writing on the black conductor and if I'm not mistaken it also looks to be copper.

Looks like 6 AWG THW copper oil resistant conductors. A 70A main breaker is the highest you can go with those conductors. Altho, it's assumed that anything 100A or less should be rated for 60 degree celcius and anything over a 100 is rated for 70 degree Celsius.

Were it me, I'd rip that out and replace it with a 100A MLO 12/24 and backfeed a 70A breaker for the disconnect. Knock the drywall out more to accommodate the larger panel and reframe it out, then do some spackle work. But if you have no main disconnect upstream then doing such a job is going to be pretty dangerous. You'd pretty much have to have the meter pulled to de-energize that panel if there was no disconnect between the meter and that first panel.

You may not have a main disconnect upstream because you have both neutrals and grounding conductors terminated to the same buss bar. That kinda posses a problem.

 

[praisehim.]

md: thanks for the help. so are you saying, i should add a new 70 amp 2 pole breaker an run new wires from that down into the sub panel ?

 

[madpenguin]

Personally, I'd abandon the receptacle and fish new wire down to the outlet box. Mount the sub panel right over the outlet box so the wires come thru the knockout on the right hand side of the panel. Try to find a grommet or NM connector to use for that large knockout.

I have so many people asking questions, I'm getting confused. It looks like you should have a disconnect further up stream. Why feed 2 small sub panels when you can just rip all that shit out and replace it with a 12/24 Main Breaker Panel?

Go find a disconnect up stream and tell me what those feeder wires say that fire up the first panel. I can see white writing on the black conductor and if I'm not mistaken it also looks to be copper.

Looks like 6 AWG THW copper oil resistant conductors. A 70A main breaker is the highest you can go with those conductors. Altho, it's assumed that anything 100A or less should be rated for 60 degree celcius and anything over a 100 is rated for 70 degree Celsius.

Were it me, I'd rip that out and replace it with a 100A MLO 12/24 and backfeed a 70A breaker for the disconnect. Knock the drywall out more to accommodate the larger panel and reframe it out, then do some spackle work. But if you have no main disconnect upstream then doing such a job is going to be pretty dangerous. You'd pretty much have to have the meter pulled to de-energize that panel if there was no disconnect between the meter and that first panel.

You may not have a main disconnect upstream because you have both neutrals and grounding conductors terminated to the same buss bar. That kinda posses a problem.

One panel. Rip the flush mount panel out of the wall and reframe for a larger Main Breaker panel. Toss your second subpanel in the trash. One panel. That is ofcourse depending on whether or not you have a main disconnect upstream from the first panel.

I seem to be repeating myself. Maybe I should just say "hire an electrician"....

Read my posts throughly. I usually do a pretty good job of explaining everything in detail. What you want to do is feed a sub panel off of a subpanel. Redundant. If there is a way to kill the feeders that come into the first flush mount panel, I personally would rip it out and expand to just have one panel.

Go find a main disconnect upstream of the first flush mount panel.

 

[TryComb]

Got a ?? for all you sparkys out there. I have a lithonia lighting Z-strip dual T5 2ft set up I wanted to get some high output T5s but I want to make sure the ballast would be able to is capable. The 2 bulbs that would go in are 24w each the set up currently has 14w the balast says 28w 120v. So good idea bad idea???? Thanks everyone!!
TC

 

[praisehim.]

One panel. Rip the flush mount panel out of the wall and reframe for a larger Main Breaker panel. Toss your second subpanel in the trash. One panel. That is ofcourse depending on whether or not you have a main disconnect upstream from the first panel.

I seem to be repeating myself. Maybe I should just say "hire an electrician"....

Read my posts throughly. I usually do a pretty good job of explaining everything in detail. What you want to do is feed a sub panel off of a subpanel. Redundant. If there is a way to kill the feeders that come into the first flush mount panel, I personally would rip it out and expand to just have one panel.

Go find a main disconnect upstream of the first flush mount panel.

MP: im sorry to be buggin man... i just wanna be safe.. an cant have anyone go in my room anymore due to the ladies being there.. : (

i understand what your saying an will do that... but just curious.. is it possible that i just use the sub as a main ? just replace them basically... ? an can you maybe show me what wire goes where if i do that ? and yes there is a main disconnect luckily.. took me a while to find it.. but did.

 

[madpenguin]

If you have a main disconnect upstream of your flush mount panel, then I say your best option in the long run is to rip out the flush mount panel and replace it with something bigger.

You can squeeze 70A out of those conductors feeding your first panel. What does the main disconnect breaker say? What is it rated for?

 

[TryComb]

Are you talking to me? Cause I was not talking about sub panels. if not sorry could one of you please answser my question. Thanks!!
TC

 

[growclean]

Ok, so we just completed our electrical today. I hope that we did everything right, but I know it works!

Here is what we did do:

We installed a 100 amp double pole breaker in our main. We then wired 2-2-2-4 aluminum wire out of the wall from the breaker through 1" pvc and back into the wall near our sub-panel. We purchased a flush mount panel that could accommodate up to 8 spaces. We ran 12-2 for everything except for our 240 to our light controller, for that we used 10-2. We tested all the outlets, lights, etc. and it all worked! The only thing we did not test was the 240 receptacles as we did not have anything to test them with.

Anyways thanks for all the help and info that I received in this thread. If anyone is interested, I will be posting some more pics in a new thread about our build.