newbie nutrient question

[billy571]

Hey IC gang! First time growing ANYTHING... and I want to thank you guys for being here and teaching rookies like me. You guys are a freaking gold mine of info.... thanks!!!

I have three seedlings (anonymous bag seed) at the moment (more coming today hopefully), and I have them in 2 in. sq peat moss pots filled with a 50/50 perlite/potting soil (as unferted as I could get it) mix. I am using a 4ft shoplight with two 6500K tubes. The veg closet is at about 75-80F, and at about 55% RH. This is day two, and one seedling has appeared and the other two are still lightly buried. I just sprayed some root & grow root stimulator (4-10-3) on the three cubes at half strength.

My question is a choice of two nutrients.
- Miracle Gro Miracid (acid loving plant food) 30-10-10
or
- Miracle Gro All Around Plant Food 20-20-20

Which one do you think will be better? I was leaning toward the 30-10-10 because of it's higher N, but will the P and the K being less than the all around food hurt the plants? What do you guys think is the best NPK ratio for rookie not to get into trouble with?

Thanks so much in advance and good luck to you all in your grows.

B

 

[Mr.Piff]

Hey billy, welcome to ic, many of the people here will agree with me when I say: Dont use Miracle Grow, dont do it!!! lol anyways its very acidic and almost impossible to flush completely out of your soil. Im pretty new here too, but Ive had to learn it the hard way.

 

[billy571]

Thanks, MP for the reply. Is it an issue with MG 30-10-10, or the MG 20-20-20? Or is it just something in this particular brand? Now MP, I have heard not to use MG potting soil due to it's already being fertilized, but I have not heard any issues about the plant foods... anyone else got an opinion? Please remember that this is my first time ever.

Thanks,
B

 

[EvilTwin]

billy,
Miracle Grow has a bad reputation but most of it is un-earned. The one characteristic that MG has that others don't is that the N is almost all urea based. That makes it easy to burn a plant by overnuting.

Use the 20-20-20 but you're a long way from needing nutrient. And why did you spray with root stimulator? Seedlings naturally are all about developing roots and don't need any help. Hopefully you didn't burn your seedling with the root stimulator.

Wait until you have the first true set of leaves. The smooth round ones called cotyledons and are for food storage. They'll die off as the stored food gets used up. OK...where was I....

Once the first set of true leaves are up, you can very gently start feeding. Mix the 20-20-20 @ 1/4 tsp/gallon. Use that for the first feeding but it's actually a good idea to wait till you see a little slight yellowing. That's the sure sign that they need feeding.

That will also get you into the habit of watching the plant and giving what it needs rather then just doing it by rote.

Don't overwater and allow the soil to dry out a bit before feeding again. Use the pot weight to determine need for watering. That's enough for now...
ET

 

[billy571]

Mr. ET, thanks for the help. Day two: Two of the three seedlings are doing good, one has not broken the surface yet, maybe I planted too deep. I will not water them again until they get really dry.

I just planted the other 6 germ'd seeds today, but unfortunately I didn't read your post until after. I sprayed down the jiffy pots pretty good with the root grow stuff... but at least I'm only using it at about 50% strength. So one more time just for clarity, I am supposed to drown the germed seeds with water one time initially when I put it in the jiffy pot, and then just put it under the lights and let it do it's thing? I have about 10 more seeds to germinate, so hopefully I'll have a total of about 5-7 more seeds to plant in the next two days. When I put these in the jiffy pots, I won't use the root stuff and then hopefully I will be able to tell the difference between the two groups.

Thanks again for the help... you guys are the best.

B

 

[EvilTwin]

billy,
Ya, it's best to not use any chemicals on the little seedlings. Nature provides them with all they need.

There are all sorts of threads and tutorials on starting from seed. I was really giving you advice on seedling management once they sprouted.

People do the actual seed sprouting different ways. Most people are very particular about how they do it because they may be sprouting expensive seeds that cost then over $10 a seed. Best to practice on bagseed till you get good success. I'll tell you how I do it...but I suggest reading some tutorials. I don't like the paper towel method because you can get the seed tail tangled in the towel.

First I soak the seeds overnight in water. Some people soak till the hull cracks open. Then gently plant into either the little 1" rockwool cubes or jiffy peat pucks.

Prepare the peat pucks by soaking in water till saturated. Then gently squeeze so it's not sopping wet but still very moist.

OK, when putting the seed into the peat...I use a chopstick to make a hole (1/2" deep). Drop the seed in and fill hole with peat.

Use a sprayer to keep the peat damp. You don't want seeds to dry out. Once the head emerges....make sure that the pod was shed as it emerged from the peat. Coming up through the peat, it's usually knocked off. Give it a day and if it's still there...pick it off with a toothpick. With seeds, I'll go ahead and plant into a beer cup with holes in the bottom for drainage. Get into the habit of marking the cups. You want to keep track of what is what.

As you plant the seedling into well draining soil (no nutrients)...give it a good watering. As the seedling grows...allow the soil to dry a bit but not totally dry. The surface will be dry but if you were to stick your finger into the dirt...it would be damp underneath.

As the plant gets bigger...then the moist/damp cycle is more important. the tiny seedlings need more attention.

From there...follow my previous post.

ET

PS: Your comment " I will not water them again until they get really dry" is incorrect. Really dry is too dry. Go from wet to damp...not really dry.

 

[billy571]

ET, thank you for your help. Keep following this for a minute, will ya please? You have been very helpful. I will try to keep them moist, but not soaking wet. Is it okay to mist the little seedling, or should I be careful to keep it as dry as possible and only wet the soil?

 

[EvilTwin]

billy...
Misting seedlings occasionally to wash dust off the leaves is OK but I don't believe in overdoing it. Why would you need to do that? I try and do things that make sense. If you're talking about occasional overspray while moistening the peat. Not to worry. It isn't critical either way. These are plants that grow wild in nature.

Now with clones...I generally don't believe in misting.

And while we're on that subject...you should have a good quality sprayer that has an adjustable spray pattern. When moistening Jiffy pucks I adjust to a stream. That makes it easier to control where the water goes to.

And now that I'm subscribed to your thread...I get an email every time you post. so I'll check in. Today I'm drinking tequila so I'll be here at my computer. Right now I'm watching a very intense movie called Babel. Brad Pitt and Cate Beckensall...
ET

 

[billy571]

Right on, ET. Shoot one for me, and yeah, that movie was intense... good word for it. I appreciate your help. Have a good night.

B

 

[datura_kid]

also a tip about beer cup...before you put any soil/meduim in, cut it verticaly from top down (just one side) and i do bottom also, then use little duck tape over the cut...so when you are transplanting into bigger pot just remove the duck tape and open the cup, this way you wont damage the root or stress the plan as much.

 

[billy571]

Thanks for popping in, D!!! I appreciate you coming in and trying to help me out, I really do. That beer cup idea sounds great, but for this grow I'm using the peat moss cups because they seemed to be the least stress method for future transplantation to a bigger pot, and the pack of fifty only ran me like three bucks at Lowe's. Maybe next time I'll risk trying to transplant them physically, but the thought intimidated me when I made my decision on which way to go. I plan to move these plants to 2-3 gallon pots when they need it. I have read that the idea is to allow for about a gal for every foot of expected height. I am thinking I will veg 24/0 until the plant gets about a foot to a foot and a half tall(hopefully I can get em there!), then start 12/12. I also plan on topping two of the plants, just to get an idea of how that will benefit my (cross your fingers!!!) ladies.

Gotta go, just wanted to say a simple thanks and been rambling. Thanks, D. Hang out with me a sec, eh?

Good morning ET, hope that Cuervo (or maybe you're a huge baller and it was Patron Gold.... ahh, yes.) is treating you OK today.

Peace,
B

 

[datura_kid]

im no expert but i'll stick around and help if i can billy...

i wouldnt do 24/0 for manny reasons; unnatural (except close to the poles, but then again thats where ruderalis came from with its autoflowering), equipment never cools down, plants never get rest from light, electric bill, and if you go directly to 12/12 its a stress...

i like to do something like 20/4 -> 18/6 -> 16/8 -> 14/10 -> 12/12, some will say this is too much hastle but i really don't see a problem, it takes less than a minute to change few timers. If this sounds too much you can also do something like 20/4 -> 18/6 -> 12/12...you might think that it would logicaly go 16/8 instead of 18/6 but in this kind of schedule it go with 18/6 just because of more light = more growth, but 16 would be fine too...as you see the point is to provide as close as possible to natural conditions...

 

[EvilTwin]

Mornin' Billy...
Nope...Cuervo Gold for me. Tried the Cuervo Black but didn't like it. Feel good this AM.

Datura...I won't knock your desire to keep things as natural as possible for the plants...but we are creating a totally un-natural environment for them. My point? It's very rare for people to mess with the light schedule like you do. And what you're probably doing is to slow or delay the onset of flowering.

Going straight from veg lights (be they 18, 20 or 24 hours) to 12/12 gives an unambiguous signal to the plant...time to flower!
ET

 

[datura_kid]

i agree with that, like some sativas wont easily flower even with 12/12, but need 11/13 to start...

back to subject - but for example, if one is using feminised seeds (i am at the moment (s#1), and these are my first ever) so i'll pay attention to stress them as little as humanly possible, cuz we all know what stress could do with fem seeds...

 

[billy571]

Hell, I don't even have a timer yet... just two shoplights blazing away in a 3 foot by 2.5 foot spare closet. I figured since this was a newbie trial run and all, 24/0 would be simpler. I ain't worried about electrical costs, my temps are about 74-80 and my RH is about 50%. Two of the three pots I first planted are doing great, one has not shown his head yet. The other six I planted yesterday afternoon have yet to do anything yet. My goal is to get about 12-16 little seedlings going, choose the best and hardiest looking four and grow those out. I plan on buying a 250w hps or a 400w hps to flower with, they both seem to be the same price basically but I am leaning towards the 250w because of heat. I plan to flower in a different closet about the same size and I am already sweating the heat and ventilation issues... but that is much, much further down the road it seems. I was remarking in someone else's thread that I don't remember stressing about the 3 day growth of my first child like this....LOL.

You guys have a great day.

Peace,
B

 

[Harvest Time]

hey man congrats on your decision to join the community! i have been lurking and learning for 1-2 months now just taking the time to learn as i tryed my bagseed to practice, the things i learned, AKA topping, LST, flowering, watering, light...ect and am also ready. i wish you great luck on your journey and i will be watching because i will be doing this "with you" as my 6 just went into beer cups last night and 4 have sprouted. which meathod do you plan on growing?

 

[billy571]

Hey HT, what's up my man? I plan on just using soil for my first grow. Simple, basic stuff. I'm just trying to grow a personal stash of good buds, not trying to be Tony Montana or nothing. My longterm goal is try a few different methods to find the one that gives me the most bang for my buck. I figured soil would be the most simplest and cheapest to start off with. Eventually I will get hooked up with some bomb seeds, but for now I am practicing with some various bagseeds that I had accumulated.

Peace,
B

 

[billy571]

What do you guys think of superthrive as an aid to rooting and first theee days of seedling growth? I was gonna pick some up and try it to see if it will help my seedling success rate. I do have to remind myself that I'm dealing with anonymous, crappy seeds here, but it is frustrating to see 2 of my first three take off like Usain Bolt, and the other 6 are still chilling. Just wanted to get some opinions.

Thanks,

B

 

[billy571]

I broke down and got the technaflora starter nutrient kit for 30 bucks today. I put the thrive alive red on the seedlings and SHAZAM!!!!! In like five hours I can see a big difference in how they seem to be doing... maybe it's just my imagination, but seriously it seems to be going much better. Out of the first nine seedlings, it looks like 6-7 of them will sprout and grow for me and the original two have developed their cotyledons and their first leaves... I feel like a proud papa. This growing stuff is so cool....

Just to clarify, at what point do I start feeding them the veg nutes? I thought it was when the second node develops... and then at half strength, right?

Thanks, and eventually I'll get some pics. My digi cam really sucks, and I want to get a new one.

Peace,
B

 

[billy571]

Update with pics...11/10/09

Update with pics...11/10/09

Just wanted to update Mr. Evil Twin on my progress, he was very nice and helpful to me in getting set up and answering q's. Sorry about the crappy pics, no digi cam atm. Used cell phone.

The ghetto grow room w 4 four foot T12 tubes (20w, 6500K) and one 2ft. 17w 7800k tube shoe horned in between the two shoplights.


The average temps and humidity taken at plant top level...


My very first seedling... you never forget the first one of anything, I guess. She's special to me. She's in a 1.5 gal sand pail, growing in my 50/50 soil/perlite mix. Using technaflora sugar daddy/root 66 to encourage root growth every third feeding. When she gets to three leaf sets I will start weak veg nutes.


The next four seedlings I transplanted from the tiny jiffy cups to hempy cups. Using just perlite (didn't have any vermiculite), filled up the cup and cut a hole about an inch up from the bottom. This method seems really simple and easy and CHEAP!!! I figured I'd try it, and so far I'm down with it. I fed them the sugar daddy/root 66 mix... it is okay to water them everyday. right? I don't have to, but I read somewhere that more fresh water equals more oxygen to roots equals more better roots... right?????? I plant to only nute them every third day or so.


The rest of the sprouted seedlings. At this point, I think I am going to go Hempy method with these too. The Hempy cup sprouts are doing good I think, at least they seem happy.


Thats it for now... My goal is to get at least three or four vegging females going under my coming 400w HPS.... that's next. I'll try to keep this thread going with pics as often as I can. My old lady has been having terrible back spasms, so I gotta care for her.

Peace,
B