FYI: Sources of composting tools, machinery & software

[ganja din]

@ all,

I want to offer some links to tools/machinery in case anyone else is looking for use in personal, or small-scale commercial composting:

1. Compost turner: I found a great windrow compost turner in the style of the "Sandberger" compost turners designed for Controlled Microbail Composting (created by Siegfried Luebke and family). There are very few compost turner options for the small scale, high quality compost operator. Supposedly, tow behind Sandberger turners for small operators are available in the US but I couldn't find any. I did however find two options. This spring/summer I am going to buy a Frontier "Mighty Mike" PTO-driven drum/paddle compost turner. Although, it can only do windrows 42" high. I would prefer to make 4-5 foot high windrows, but 3.5 feet is fine if the C/N ratio is correct. I REALLY like the turner mounted water sprayer! I will use it for water, humic acid, etc. Also, the paddle design is said to further reduce particle size. Ideal speed is around 900 ft/hr, a tractor should have a "creeper gear".

A) Here is a link for the Mighty Mike, I am also buying other equipment from Frontier, and the compost monitoring tools/software. Check out the description of the "Turborator" drum/paddle design on the following link, and the bottom of this post[1]: http://www.frontierindustrial.net/new.htm

B) Here is the US contact for Frontier. Check out all the other compost monitoring tools, probes/software(!) and other cool machinery (I have my eye on that screener). The "Scout" series is the 'big brother' tow-behind compost turner to the Mighty Mike: http://www.turnandscreen.com/Composting.html

C) Here are the blue prints to build your own PTO-driven drum/paddle compost turner. Its bigger and cheaper than the MightyMike. However, it has no watering option and I think the Frontier drum/paddle desing is suppiror: http://www.highfieldsinstitute.org/windrowturner.htm



2. This is a 'walk behind' compost spreader. Very useful for smaller applications where compost spreading machinery is over-kill: http://www.ecolawnapplicator.com/index2.html



3. Here is a great chipper/shredder. Its rated for 2.5" sticks. However, its perfect for shredding compost feedstock. Shredding is required for high quality compost IMO. Ordering a couple of 5 bushel bags is a good idea for shredding straw: http://www.patriot-products-inc.com/csv-3065bdetails.htm

And if one only needs an electric shredder, check out the other Patriot chipping/shredding options: http://www.patriot-products-inc.com/wood-chipper-electric-chipper.htm



Good composting!

[1]

The Heart of the machine is in the patented Drum and Paddle design, (US Patent # 5,586,731). Our paddles are extremely abrasion resistant and weigh 7 to 10 lbs. each, making them impervious to small rocks and debris; saving you time and money. The processing action of these paddles has proven to be far superior to rotor-tillers, conveyors, augers, knives or flat paddle designs. Frontier's patented feature aerates material as it mixes - left to right - right to left - top to bottom - bottom to top and inside out.

-Particle size reduction without pulverizing.

-Mixes by turbulently throwing material in two predetermined crossing patterns.

-Creates two CO2 purging circulating airflows, (15 cu.ft. of air for every 1 cu.ft. of material.)

-The combination of airflow and physical throw of the paddles shape the windrow into its optimum shape and porosity.

-The resulting 100% AERATION and 100% MIXING, yields extreme microbial population growth producing rapid odor-free composting.

-Your benefit from owning a Frontier will continues for years. They are rugged, strong, and maintenance-friendly. Frontier's ability to continue making you money is based on the proven record of our customers' success and satisfaction.

-Fewer turns = less operating costs.

-More material through the screen = more material available for sale per cycle.

-Simplicity & heavy-duty engineering = less maintenance.

-Bottom Line = Frontier Makes You Money!

Our complete line of turners range from Tow-Behind Type models (80", 10', 12' 14', drums are PTO or engine-driven) to fully self-propelled straddle-type models (10'- 22'). Frontier has just the right model for you at just the right price.

Options such as self-trailering (US Patent # 5,586,731), four wheel drive, and stainless steel tunnel are all available too, to make the Frontier fit every situation, even yours.

 

[VerdantGreen]

one good quick way to shred material up to about half an inch thick is to lay it on the path and run a good rotary lawn mower over it.

also when turning compost (if you have old fashioned heaps). slice it downwards with a spade and pile it in the new heap - this helps mix the layers and chop up twigs etc that were lying horizontally on the fiest heap

 

[ganja din]

hey v,

Thanks, but those methods don't produce what is considered high quality compost (IMO). Besides, a proper traditional pile is not only at least a cubic foot, but the bulk density should be 800-1200 pounds (800-1000 lb is ideal). That is the size of my traditional piles and I turn them with a pitch fork. IMO initial and thorough mixing of feedstocks is very important and should happen before the pile starts heating up. I could not [sic] 'slice the pile with a spade', nor could He Man I think.

I'm glad those methods work for you. And they do work for traditional piles as you mentioned, however, it does not produce what is considered high quality compost. If one is using the compost only for ACT then a less than high quality compost is fine, all we want is the microbes in that case.

My piles weigh around a half ton each, which I currently turn by hand every two days. I have at least two piles going at any point. That's not so easy and takes a while. And when I have to apply water while turning (to increase % moisture content to 50-55%) the process can take hours.

The reason to use the turner if using a windrow is that turning and watering should be very frequent until the maturation phase. Using a turner makes this possible and very efficient. Every two days is my schedule. And once a day in the first 7 days to if the pile is getting overly hot (into the "hyperthermophilic" range).

IMO the lawn mower method doesn't work well enough. Its not consistent enough. I could not imagine shredding all feedstocks it would take a while I assume and isn't possible with many feedstocks. To shred dry straw I use a chain saw. To shred horse manure and to pre-mix feedstocks I use a rototiller in a big plastic circular water container for horses.

Here's a neat link to build you own compost feedstock shredder from a lawn mower:

"Build a common sense compost shredder"
From Mother Earth News
http://www.motherearthnews.com/Do-It-Yourself/1984-03-01/Build-a-Commonsense-Compost-Shredder.aspx

Thanks

 

[ganja din]

I forgot to say: when using a turner one can layer the windrow as dry/wet/dry/wet/... Then spread rock powders, clay/zeolite/etc, on top of the windrow. Then simply mix the windrow at least once with the turner to fully mix. Done and done.

 

[VerdantGreen]

yeah gd, im sure your method produces 'high quality compost' as you call it, but there are many other methods too. whether or not a lawnmower works depends on what you are trying to chop. i tend to put garden waste and fine prunings, staw and fresh chicken manure etc. often i first put this in the bin in layers and then chop and properly mix it on the first turn with the spade - i find that layering in grass clippings when you turn it helps it re-heat very well. not sure what my heaps weigh but i find 1 metre cubed is a good size. probably takes longer to compost this way but i dont really use compost till it is at least a year old anyway. chopping and turning compost with a spade is excellent excercise!

in UK decent compost tumblers cost about £500 so i'll stick to my 3 compost heaps for now

V.

p.s. i think it's important for people to know they can make good compost for free with a simple system and a bit of elbow grease

 

[jaykush]

i like the lawnmower shredder link, mother earth news always has great stuff.

but i still prefer the one man powered version, i get high quality compost in a matter of weeks with little effort. it all about the details and the materials for the best compost.

i doubt anyone here needs a windrow turner, specially one that involves a tractor or cost as much as those monster ones.

p.s. i think it's important for people to know they can make good compost for free with a simple system and a bit of elbow grease

ditto...

 

[ganja din]

You guys are not talking about high quality compost. Think humus management and high nutrient levels. The methods you guys are butting into my thread ( ; ) will produce compost, but it will not be high quality by most judgments (ie. Luebke compost quality).

High quality often infers high input along with very specific temps, moisture and aeration control. CEC and humus increase far past traditional compost and high quality compost can be considered a true fertilizer. High quality compost retains most of the initial elements. Ideally my finished compost is usually around 1.5-2/0.5-1.5/0.5-1.5/0.5-1.5. (%N/P/K/Ca).

We are talking about two different end products. I don't see why you guys feel you have to 'stand up' for traditional methods, I never even mentioned them nor 'dissed' them. This thread is for small-scale composting opertations and small scale personal compositng.

There are too many assumptions here. Why wouldn't a IC member who can afford these great tools not be interested if they compost? A 10 foot long windrow can fit in most backyards...

Particle size is very important in relation to bulk density and % air porosity. Not to mention greatly incrwased microbial availability by grater surface area.

Initial mixing is also very important. But most important for high quality, hot, dynamic aerobic compost (not forced air) is C/N, C/P, % moisture content, pile size and very importantly, thorough and often pile turning.

Most backyard composters don't even care about C/N, or even % moisiture! They usually apply the old (and super inaccurate) ratio of 50% brown and 50% green. Hell, most composting methods suggested in "The Rodale Book of Composting" such as the methods from US universities like the "Indore" and "University of California" methods don't suggesting mixing the feedstocks! (That's just silly for high quality compost operation).

Like I mentioned I too currenlty use 'arm strong' methods like manual turning with a pitch fork every two days, manual mixing of feedstocks before building pile with a rototiller, etc. But its far from ideal...



@ jaykush,

I thought you would like that. But, if you'd spend just a little more than the cost of parts and time, you could get a bad ass Patriot electric chipper/shredder. That lawn mower method still is FAR from ideal. Considering how important particle size is for high quality compost I would not use it in place of a real shredder. Just my 2 cents.

 

[ganja din]

@ v

Those aren't tumblers. They are turners, big difference between the two. I would never use one of those tumblers. However, the turners aren't cheap. The Might Mite is thousands and thousands of dollars depending upon features and purchase quantity.

Maybe you guys will find my composts (fungal, bacterial and non-specific), vermicast, and soilless medium for sale someday in the future...

Oh yea! I found a screener which can handle OM like sewage sludge to 70% moisiture content and its made for small commercial use. If buy eventually buy it I can seriously start processing OM with BSFL and screening the BSFL castings will be easy. Then experimentally feeding them to vermicast bins for a specially PGR and microbe rich vermicast sounds fun.

 

[DARC MIND]

There are too many assumptions here. Why wouldn't a IC member who can afford these great tools not be interested if they compost? A 10 foot long windrow can fit in most backyards...

ganja, if i could afford these tools, i would use them. Big thank you on this, one day maybe ill get one these but most of these tools are too big. Even a 10 foot windrow would be too much for my small home. My lady would flip out on me

Most backyard composters don't even care about C/N, or even % moisiture! They usually apply the old (and super inaccurate) ratio of 50% brown and 50% green. Hell, most composting methods suggested in "The Rodale Book of Composting" such as the methods from US universities like the "Indore" and "University of California" methods don't suggesting mixing the feedstocks! (That's just silly for high quality compost operation).

i think most composters do care about c/n ratio and moister. both of these dramatically increase or decrease decomposing rate and effect odor, witch im sure is a main concern to most who compost.
I my self dont use the 50/50 method and tend to use more brown then greens and turn when ever I get the chance.
i think many people suggest the 50/50 and simple methods, because it actually does work. It may not be the best , fastest way to compost but its a start.
I love seeing more and more people compost and some methods of composting are just too complicated or too big of a task for most common folks. I believe this is why these simple yet effective methods are passed on.
High quality compost operations are for the big boys but small scale composting shouldnt be complicated especially when we really need to lower the amount of waste pilling up in the land fills.

 

[VerdantGreen]

yeah ive just taken another look at some of the links - nice machines but way over the top for most applications imo.

nice chipper! - i have one but it cost me £20 so not quite in that league

so gd do you buy ingredients for making compost? - you have a commercial compost making operation going??

 

[jaykush]

oh ganja......i am talking about high quality compost. nutrient dense, biologically rich, top quality compost. don't take what i said as a bashing towards the methods or machinery, you always jump there. just the fact you don't think high quality compost can come from another method. specially from a home, which is silly. my compost is far from a traditional "pile it, set it, turn it every now and then" way of thinking. anyone who gives a damn does care what goes into there piles, i am almost religious what i use and what just gets fed to the chickens of BSF. not just the wealthy composters strive for perfection. where there is a will there is a way

you don't think the 50/50 ratio works good for people who have never made compost before let alone even know what it is? you have to start somewhere, and some people are completely clueless as far as using micro organisms to turn waste into compost. start telling them about air porosity percentages, C/N ratios, and everything else we want to know. tons of people will be put off....trust me i know. and of course its not ideal, i shouldn't even have to say that. but it works.

hey now i said i liked the lawnmower shredder, i didn't say it was ideal or even that i was going to make one. i have a 700$ chipper/shredder i got for free. all i had to do was fix the engine, it took me 10 mins. works amazing, specially when chipping garden scraps to make biochar.

 

[ganja din]

@ jk,

I'm think this is my last post to you on this topic, no offense, its just not going anywhere. You came in here with preconceived notions. Nuff said.

I didn't think you we're bashing me, and I could care less if you were. My point is you are thread-jacking (still).

I didn't write this thread to have a traditional vs high quality compost argument. I was only offering links for people like me and darkmind. I said nothing about traditional compost.

Have you even taken the time to read about Luebke compost? My method is superior to it, IMO, but it does provide clear definitions of what is considered high quality compost. If you think a traditional method will produce what I and others consider quality compost I would be hard pressed to agree. Good compost? Yes. Great compost? Not very likley. Chemistry is one main concern. Like I said, I am not claiming this is relevant for ACT, but otherwise it is.

Please read the following links. You will enjoy them I promise! And at least read an example of my point of view:

"Good Compost Made Better - The Rodale Institute takes “black gold” one step further"
By Christine Ziegler Ulsh with Paul Hepperly, PhD
http://www.rodaleinstitute.org/20060413/ulshhepperly



"Controlled Microbial Composting and Humus Management: Luebke Compost"*
by Steve Diver
Fayetteville, Arkansas ©2004
http://www.ibiblio.org/steved/Luebke/Luebke-compost2.html



Have a good one

 

[ganja din]

@ DM,

Good points, thanks.



@ v,

Check out the temp and O2 probe and software, I'm totally getting it!

I am not a commerical producer, yet...

Here is what I buy for composting:
I calculate my compost starting % N/P/K/Ca (among LOTS of other qualifications and quantifiacations). Most composts with high elemental % are made using synthetic nitrigen (ex. mushroom compost).

Wheat straw (I pre-treat with white rot fungi to reduce lignin and cellulose (to a lesser degree))

Alfalfa meal (for N)

Oat meal (for fungal compost conatining more ammonium nitrate, good for growing mushrooms,trees, shrubs, etc. Add it at end of thermophilic stage)

Azomite (for Ca to bind N, micro-elements for microbes and to form the 'Ca-clay-humic-aggragte')

Colliodal phosphate (for C/P ratio)

Gypsum (to mix with horse manure to bind ammonia via Ca and S to a lesser degree)

Zeolite (to mix with pile for CEC, binding elementns helps prevet loss during composting and 'Ca-clay-humic-aggragte')

Humic acid powder and liquid



What I don't buy:

Horse manure (my main feedstock)

Wet spent brewers grains (wet SBG for N and hemicelluose)

HTH

 

[Microbeman]

Thank you for your presentation Mr. Din. In my limited exposure over the past 5 years to the compost tea brewing crowd, I've noticed a profound misunderstanding of what compost is and should be. Very much of it is called woody compost. Huh? Even Dr. Ingham (if I understand correctly) is of the opinion that compost is just something which has been microbially heated and remains microbially active and therefore is usable to propogate microbes in CT. This is simply not the case IMO. A finished good quality compost should be 99.9% stable and there should be no recognizable plant or matter tissues remaining. This is the only type of compost and vermicompost/cast which I use.
Jay, if you are producing compost of this quality in weeks and you don't mean 'at least' 16 weeks, I'd sure like to bear witness to that. Even my vermicompost/cast cannot be considered finished before 9 months in the winrow and 6 months in the bin.

 

[ganja din]

Your very welcome and I am glad you agree. That's a good point about Elaine. Pretty much the same can be said for the compost section of Jeff and Wayne's book.

I like reading about your vermiculture setup. I hope to have something similar. I hope to have large bins large in the future. I will probably pick your brain at that point if that's OK.

It seems we both had to, and still have to, cobble together our knowledge from many scholarly articles, websites and scientists. Sadly, this info is just not found in a laymens book (I am aware of). I really appreciate your knowledge and dedication. I like that you know a lot I do not, I can't wait to dive into microscopy! My semester ends in about a month and a half and then I am taking the next semester off...

I like the Cornell U. and Washington U. compost sites a lot.

Sincerly, ganja

 

[jaykush]

ganja, i don't want to gummy up your thread. and my intentions are not to do traditional compost vs high quality compost argument (or even to argue at all i fuckin hate it more than anyone). you just seem to have the preconceived notion that i don't know what high quality compost is? or anyone else for that matter, that your shit is above everyone else. thanks for those links. i read them, and have read them before your not the only one who can use google. nothing seems special about them other than the leubkes seem to take care, consideration and a little thinking ahead of time into there process( which everyone should). rather than piling and turning organic waste matter when you "feel like it". i still don't get how compost is considered "high quality" other than the results when applied to your crop.

Jay, if you are producing compost of this quality in weeks and you don't mean 'at least' 16 weeks, I'd sure like to bear witness to that. Even my vermicompost/cast cannot be considered finished before 9 months in the winrow and 6 months in the bin.

by a few weeks i mean 4-8-ish depending on the season. compared to a "traditional" pile that sits for almost a year or more. i am sure about the quality as i have purchased commercial compost and homemade up and down california, biologically tested and everything and results speak for themselves. one problem i have with commercial compost is it is almost always (but not always) bulk material based( ex manure + straw = compost). half the time the compost still smells like manure! or like you said, you can pick out what was composted because it is still recognizable. my worms take a bit more time, there not as fast but they produce quality castings.

 

[ganja din]

I don't know what else to say jay, except I already wrote all relevant info, as did MicrobeMan. I have yet to see compost from a backyard which is high quality (including mine at present), but granted, I have not seen many backyard composts. I have not found any commercial compost that is high quality. If you reread my posts, and those links you should see what's staring you in the face. Reread the tests Steve describes, like CEC (from "potential pH"), humus, etc. Biology is only part of high quality compost. Also, the link to the Rodale Institute studies are pretty important. Its similar to Luebke compost, while adding humic acid, no rock powder, etc. I posted those two links because they are both trying to achieve the same goal. Each has much to learn from, at least I did. FWIW, there is much scholarly info on lowering the amount of nitrification, nitrogen loss as ammonia, etc.

I hope this helps clear up any confusion. Ganja

 

[jaykush]

yes that does clear it up some, maybe my take on what you meant by high quality was a bit much, i guess i just wanted to hear it from you what high quality compost was not some data/writing from someone else. just one thing though, if this is not commercial or backyard where does it come from? the best compost i have come by was always from old organic farmers, ones who have been doing it for years and years and years.

basically, we have the same view of what high quality compost is. i just call it compost with care. and not a lot of people care.

yea those links are great, i loved them when i read them a while back and learned much( they might even be posted here somewhere the luebke one anyways). they were somewhat of a tipping point for me wanting to have a higher quality compost along with a few other things. those are the kind of links that should go in the organic fanatic collective thread.

now....do you got a link to that bad ass screener?

 

[ganja din]

@ all,

I forgot to mention a great (tho possibly insignificant) environmental benefit from compost made from the mind set of humus management: not only will compost like the kind I describe greatly lower nutrient runoff (ex. into streams) and instances/runoff of E.coli, but an often unstated benefit is the reduction in atmospheric Co2:

It seems a benefit to humus management as in high quality/high input compost is the atmospheric carbon (Co2) reduction. The increased humus content (eg. the "humusphere") in high quality compost* acts as a greater carbon 'sink' than unamended compost, sequestering more Co2 then without mineral and humic inputs.

Here's some interesting reading:
http://www.sare.org/sanet-mg/archives/html-home/9-html/0038.html

 

[maryjohn]

Ganja if you have to buy things to do it I don't buy the carbon argument. Commerce required co2 these days.

If you go into business, expect people to challenge your claims and ask to see your footprint.