alternatives to dolomite lime??

[DARC MIND]

i dont know if another thread have been put together like this but i wanted to know about alternative amendments to help with ph.
First i know dolomite lime is used by many, i seen a lot of mixes that add dolomite lime to ther media.
But i wanted to know, does any buddy have experience using other ph buffering amendments??
i have used oyster shell lime, dolomite lime and im thinking of using gypsum in a few runs.
IMO i think they all pretty much work the same, except i was advised by a highly respected horticulturist to switch to gypsum because if applied at the right amount 2-3 TBSP to a gallon, that the ph will stay in a range for great plant growth..??

he didnt give me a exact number on were the ph will be buffered too but explained that its a chicken and egg thing, saying that the microbe life in organic soil are in control of ph and gypsum gives them what they need to keep the ph between 5.5-7.5?
that was his explanation, by the way he grows all kinds of container plants that require all kinds of different ranges of ph.
to him gypsum is the best,
so what do you guys think, is dolomite lime over rated.
is it the only rock dust that works on buffering ph for growing pot?
has any one experimented or experienced any good results or bad results when using alternatives to dolomite lime?
and if so can you please explain the rate or % you used to your soil or soilless mix..

i used both dolomite lime and oystershell @ 2 tbsp per gallon to peat based mixes.
ill be running coco this run and im advised to use only 1 tbsp to the gal..
so lets here it

 

[Koi]

Gypsum will work, It might even work better than lime.

 

[ganja din]

Nope.

Gypsum does not increase pH. In fact, it (S) will lower pH in "sodic" (alkali) soils. Gypsum is important in sodic soils, high quality compost, etc, to "flocculate" particles. Its also important (for its' Ca) to use with raw OM (Organic Manure) manures and digested/active sewage sludge. The Ca (and S to a lesser degree) greatly lowers ammonia nitrogen volatilization (nitrification), and thus increases N (as ammonium nitrogen) "reclamation" within the OM.

FWIF: Fresh manure will loose up to around 40-60% N within the first few days do to N volatilization. Along with adding Ca, increasing CEC (ex. via. zeolite) will greatly lower N volatilization (by ~ 90% ).

To increase pH I prefer "microzied" calcitic lime, which IMO is ideal. The other option is "hydrated" lime, but its dangerous and not suggested.

HTH

 

[ganja din]

Edit: OM is Organic Matter

So no, gypsum does not buffer pH either. The horticultural expert you got this info from is not too much of an expert IMO, if she/he believes that about gypsum.

You should test media pH after applying lime to find the correct amount to add. I have posted a link to the Cornell U. Compost Science site, which shows how to test pH. You should be able to search with my nic to find it. If not, I can post it in a bit.

Its wise to mix and wet your media and test pH after a couple of days, not immediately after initial wettening.

GL

 

[ganja din]

Dbl post.

 

[DARC MIND]

OM is Organic Matter

So no, gypsum does not buffer pH either. The horticultural expert you got this info from is not too much of an expert IMO, if she/he believes that about gypsum.

GL

i dont believe i typed that the horticulturalist is an expert nor did i type that he said gypsum will buffer ph..??? IMO he is just educated and experience in growing a hell of lot of plants of all types.
expert maybe, experienced definitely..

the man told me that ph is mostly controlled by the microorganisms in the soil, who interact with our plants and organic matter, minerals etc in the soil/media. As an organic grower i too believe its the microbes who control my soils growing qualities, making nutrients, minerals, vitamins etc available for my plants by adjusting ph to were they need it to be, to get (break dwn) nutrients, minerals etc to plant available forms..

Gypsum was said to help keep ph between 5.5-7.5 witch to me means it doesnt effect ph but is able to feed our soil microbes and plants (ca, & a lil S)..
mg can be added with epson salt and i was advised to add a bit more mg then ca, when growing most herbs and vegetables.. and its been working so far
other nutrients can be added with other amendments but most ca amendments effect ph,(from my understanding) while i believe gypsum doesnt.
http://hubcap.clemson.edu/~blpprt/bobweb/BOBWEB12.HTM

a peat based soil may need a ph adjustment for growing pot but i dont think coco needs ph adjustment (when growing pot).
i believe the great burn1 said that when you add dolomite lime and compost to peat based mixes, you wont need to worry about ph when growing ORGANIC.
Im thinking a coco based soil just needs compost or EWC and what ever soil amendments or liquid nutrients for the plants needs. no ph adjustment but I could be wrong, I will have to see

FWIF: Fresh manure will loose up to around 40-60% N within the first few days do to N volatilization. Along with adding Ca, increasing CEC (ex. via. zeolite) will greatly lower N volatilization (by ~ 90% ).

To increase pH I prefer "microzied" calcitic lime, which IMO is ideal. The other option is "hydrated" lime, but its dangerous and not suggested.

HTH

thanks for the info but how much calcitic lime would you add to your soil, and is your soil peat based or coco?? or none of the above...

also i would never add fresh manure to my soil, compost yea but not my soil, especially my container soil..but thats just me

 

[ganja din]

i dont believe i typed that the horticulturalist is an expert nor did i type that he said gypsum will buffer ph..??? IMO he is just educated and experience in growing a hell of lot of plants of all types. expert maybe, experienced definitely..

I took "i was advised by a highly respected horticulturist" to mean he/she is an expert, my bad.

the man told me that ph is mostly controlled by the microorganisms in the soil, who interact with our plants and organic matter, minerals etc in the soil/media. As an organic grower i too believe its the microbes who control my soils growing qualities, making nutrients, minerals, vitamins etc available for my plants by adjusting ph to were they need it to be, to get (break dwn) nutrients, minerals etc to plant available forms..

Gypsum was said to help keep ph between 5.5-7.5 witch to me means it doesnt effect ph but is able to feed our soil microbes and plants (ca, & a lil S)..

What you just wrote says to me you think gypsum will buffer pH. And no, gypsum does not help with pH, period (unless driving it down). Lots of OM act as microbial food and has Ca, but don't affect pH like lime.

And yes, microbes affect pH. Bacteria prefers higher pH, and fungi prefers lower pH (generally). Microbes will change the pH of the *rhizosphere*, not bulk media. And besides, a starting 'acceptable' pH (eg. ~5-8) should be reached for most microbes to thrive. One must add pH adjusters to peat based mixes, I even add it to my aged pine bark fine based mix...

mg can be added with epson salt and i was advised to add a bit more mg then ca, when growing most herbs and vegetables..

Cannabis requires more Ca (its a macro) than Mg (its a micro). Adding epsom salt to media is not advised if you want a strong microherd. I would suggest you apply it via folair. However, OMRI amino acids of Ca and Mg is the best folair option.

and its been working so far other nutrients can be added with other amendments but most ca amendments effect ph,(from my understanding) while i believe gypsum doesnt.

Its more that lime affects pH, not Ca.

a peat based soil may need a ph adjustment for growing pot but i dont think coco needs ph adjustment (when growing pot).

Possibly. I would test the pH for sure...

i believe the great burn1 said that when you add dolomite lime and compost to peat based mixes, you wont need to worry about ph when growing ORGANIC.

I don't know who that is. But he/she could be correct. One must add pH adjusters to peat based mixes, regardless of if compost is also added or not.

Im thinking a coco based soil just needs compost or EWC and what ever soil amendments or liquid nutrients for the plants needs. no ph adjustment but I could be wrong, I will have to see

It depends, it could be OK. You need to test pH as I mentioned, the Cornell U. method is sound and easy.

thanks for the info but how much calcitic lime would you add to your soil, and is your soil peat based or coco?? or none of the above...

Add the same amount of c.lime as you would d.lime. The best thing to do is test the pH, see my previous notes.

I use a unique mix, I posted it, along with other important considerations in the last 3 pages of the "best soil" thread. I use aged pine bark fines and Axis regular as the base.

also i would never add fresh manure to my soil, compost yea but not my soil, especially my container soil..but thats just me

I would hope not. I wrote that for use with compost. When using fresh manure as feedstock its important to limit the N losses to volatilization, etc.

Hth

 

[DARC MIND]

What you just wrote says to me you think gypsum will buffer pH. And no, gypsum does not help with pH, period (unless driving it down). Lots of OM act as microbial food and has Ca, but don't affect pH like lime.
Can you please give me a reference to claims that gypsum lowers ph?? I don’t believe this to be true, if properly used, but I may be wrong..

And yes, microbes affect pH. Bacteria prefers higher pH, and fungi prefers lower pH (generally). Microbes will change the pH of the *rhizosphere*, not bulk media. And besides, a starting 'acceptable' pH (eg. ~5-8) should be reached for most microbes to thrive. One must add pH adjusters to peat based mixes, I even add it to my aged pine bark fine based mix...

If you agree that micro life affects ph and Im pretty sure its micro life that breaks down gypsum, then gypsum like everything we add to our soil will effect micro diversity (who effect ph). I believe certain microbes buffer ph not gypsum, IMO gypsum feeds the microbes what they need to interact with our plants growth requirements. peroid
So I don’t think gypsum buffers ph, NO
I believe it feeds the right microbes, to get what our plant needs without effecting ph.
In my grows ph can swing were it wants, just as long as my plants or crops are growing great I really don’t care were my ph goes. This is why I don’t stress on ph, when growing soil organic.
My plants look good and healthy and that’s all that matters to me..

Cannabis requires more Ca (its a macro) than Mg (its a micro). Adding epsom salt to media is not advised if you want a strong microherd. I would suggest you apply it via folair. However, OMRI amino acids of Ca and Mg is the best folair option.

Again can you give me a little more then your word that cannabis requires more ca then mg. I love concrete information a hell of a lot more then he said she said.. im not saying your wrong, just would like more information or images of side by side test..
I was led to believe that Ca and Mg need to be balanced @ around 3:1 for good growth on most organic crops. this balance, I believe helps both nutrients stay available to plants and prevents plants from the lack of the two (locked up in soil)..
Here’s a little study on strawberries
http://www.actahort.org/members/showpdf?booknrarnr=708_69

as for Epson salt and micro herd, you may be right....
But the micro life to my soil is added by compost tea’s, manure tea’s (bat, sea bird) and organic matter. Also but Not limited too mixing/creating my soil.
I top mulch with compost, EWC,& or wheat grass/clover/oat meal etc who im sure increase my soils micro diversity.
Epson salt is for Mg and microbes are always being added to my soil when I feed my soil who feed my plants & especially now that I recycle my soil, im sure a strong microherd is the least of my worries.

FYI
Burn1, LC and the 3Lb’s are some of the great organic growers I have been following since I started to grow cannabis. Im surprised you don’t know who burn1 is, im sure he is a member here and one of the reasons why I joined IC.

Add the same amount of c.lime as you would d.lime. The best thing to do is test the pH, see my previous notes.

I use a unique mix, I posted it, along with other important considerations in the last 3 pages of the "best soil" thread. I use aged pine bark fines and Axis regular as the base

Thanks for the help with c.lime, but I doubt ill use it thought.
I tend to use products I can find locally and reframe from ordering foreign products.
I have yet to see calitic lime at any of my local garden centers but ill keep an eye out if & when I need ph adjustment.
As for your mix, it sounds interesting but a little to hard to find some of the products you mentioned. I like to keep things simple, local and reframe from shipping=pollution, but that’s me..

Question for you bud,
I noticed the cornell U link on some of your post here, also the axis recommendation & you sounds like this guy that has been posting in the compost_tea yahoo group..
Is that you?? You sound a lot like this guy
peace

 

[ganja din]

Editing: come back soon

 

[ganja din]

Hey

Everything I've written is accurate, tho microbes will affect bulk media pH, just not in relation to communication with plants (generally, re: rhizosphere).

Just google sodic soil + gypsum, and read. There are plenty of journal articles on this stuff. I don't have time to source them for you. Regardless, the info I write is accurate, you will see.

Sulfur can/will hinder microbes in soil, that's one big reason its also not suggested, besides, azomite or c.lime offers plenty of Ca.

You are misunderstanding some issues. Initial pH is important and adjustment is needed with peat. Once the microherd is strong they and the plant controls pH, esp. In the rhizosphere. Once you have a strong microherd the pH of water and ferts like h.fish should not be adjusted. This is basic stuff.

If you know the ratio of Ca to Mg is 3:1, then why ask me to prove cannabis is more in need of Ca than Mg (in general)?

I would not assume you have a strong microherd, you need to have it assayed, or buy a microscope. I think you could have a weak microherd depending upon how much bird shit you add. And BTW, the bird shit doesn't add microbes per say, that's generally the job of ACT. While on that subject, if you are not testing your ACT I would not assume you are brewing a complete soil food web, nor ensuring nutrient cycling. Most people misunderstand issues and are not brewing ACT correctly, ex. do you know the DO (dissolved oxygen) you brew at?

I don't know those people you mentioned, I have learned from different sources than you. However, I think the 3lbs are those whom I can blame for the wayyyy over use of carbs like molasses, and the myth they increase flower smell or taste(?).

You can use d.lime too. But the items I use are not foreign, do you reuse your media over and over? Peat nor coir lends themselves to a long life.


GL

PS, no I don't go to that list. But I have some close friends who do.

 

[DARC MIND]

If you know the ratio of Ca to Mg is 3:1, then why ask me to prove cannabis is more in need of Ca than Mg (in general)?

i wanted to know if you may read or heard that cannabis needs more then the recommended 3:1 ratio, but im guessing not

I would not assume you have a strong microherd, you need to have it assayed, or buy a microscope. I think you would have a week microherd depending upon how much bird shit you add. And BTW, the bird shit doesn't add microbes per say, that's generally the job of ACT. While on that subject, if you are not testing your ACT I would not assume you are brewing a complete soil food web, nor ensuring nutrient cycling. Most people misunderstand issues and are not brewing ACT correctly, ex. do you know the DO (dissolved oxygen) you brew at?

im pretty sure bird or any poop, like guano’s adds microbes, we will have to agree to disagree..
as for assuming im brewing quality aerated compost tea, yea i assume. But its my plants amazing growth, smell of ACT(smells good, not bad), lots of air bubbles and the KIS method recommended by Elaine Ingham, that makes me assume my ACT is brewing a nice tea for my plants.
My herbs, veggies and other plants are looking great, so im not going to go out and buy an expensive microscope, nor am i going to pay to get my compost tea or potting soil tested, when my plants are growing fine.
I follow directions by what others (who i look up too) recommend i should do, and every thing is working great, by assumption.

I don't know those people you mentioned, I have learned from different sources than you. However, I think the 3lbs are those whom I can blame for the wayyyy over use of carbs like molasses, and the myth they increase flower smell or taste(?).

i followed the birds and i personally think they helped me & my grow a whole lot. as for the carbs and molasses i believe they were trying to advise people that molasses is used in a lot of big boy company products and that it is easier/cheaper to just use molasses from the health store. If people want to use carbs like mad, and assume better taste ect, then let them. Its all about the end products and if its working for them, then keep on keeping on. I personally dont use mollases to much, execially when im trying to help my fungi microherd. but complex carbs, yes i do use a nice amount and ill continue till something goes wrong but with organics i tend to follow the less is best rule and thats how i role.

You can use d.lime too. But the items I use are not foreign and I guarantee its more 'green' than your media, do you reuse your media over and over? Peat not coir lends themselves to a long life.

yes i reuse my media, thats what recycling soil means, bud.
as for yours being greener then mine, thats cool too bro. im not trying to compete...
i just dont like buying a whole lot of amendments when i can grow, collect or compost many my self, with out having to much shipping being done.
I believe you said you spent more on shipping then amendments?? could of been some one else.. but either way, I as in me will most likely have to get most of your recipe shipped to me..
i doubt i can find your recipes ingredients locally from my knowledge. again ill keep an eye out but im not going to change everything i do, to copy what works for you, when i already have a nice thing going.

It seems you are not considering what I am writing, but intent on telling me why its wrong. That's cool, but your only hindering yourself.

Again, agree to disagree, i here you bud & no im not telling you ur wrong. when did i type that?? i ask for more proof beyond your word. period
i grow herbs and veggies with my mix just fine, it works for me..this thread was to hear of any alternatives to dolomite lime, thats it.. you are telling me gypsum isnt a good alternative, when i believe it does add Cal and i can add mg like i usually do..epson salt or plant matter.. PH is only a problem IMO when building soils with things like peat, im running coco this run, along side of LC peat based amended mix..i will see what happens
and im only hindering my self to your methods, not growing in general. i harvest just fine with what I do, just looking for alternatives to some of the amendments i use..

thanks for your help

 

[Microbeman]

Darc mind; just fyi black strap molasses is a good fungal food. There is a myth floating that it only feeds bacteria/archaea.

 

[ganja din]

Hey MM,

I believe Elaine is the source. I'm pretty sure she didn't say it only feeds bacteria, tho I could have missed something.

However, I have always been under the belief molasses is far better as food for most bacteria than fungi. For example, most white rot fungi do not respond especially well to molasses. I understand fungal microbes do use molasses, as does yeast, etc,, but is it as efficient or effective as other more fungal foods? Tho, malt extract agar is a common type used in mycology...

Humm. I'm gonna do some research on this topic. I'd be happy to learn molasses is all one needs, but right now I'm don't feel that way. You have definitely peaked my interest, thanks.

 

[ganja din]

Hey DM,

I wanted to say thanks for providing your point of view, many of which are very valid. You seem to be doing great and definitely seem to know what your doing. I was not trying to imply otherwise. I hope I didn't come across as rude, I've been a little sick (I hope its not H1N1!), and after re-reading my posts I think a few are kind of rude, sorry.

And I didn't mean to come across as challenging about a 'greener' mix, it came across wrong, and was rude. I edited out that stuff but you beat me to it

Thanks for being cool, I try to act as you have been in this thread, sorry for being rude. I'm a bit gun shy here...

 

[Microbeman]

Raw experience in the petri dish; molasses on compost = fungal hyphae also Stamets uses it to grow out hyphae from caps in water.

Elaine says it feeds fungi when used at over 5% which is not necessary from what I've seen. (as I recall)

 

[ganja din]

Hey MM,

Thanks for that. Any idea of the effectiveness of molasses vs other fungal foods? I would prefer to use only molasses if that's an option. Have you done test brews of ACT with molasses v other fungal foods?

In my understanding, a major reason molasses is used with mushroom compost is for "linoleic acid", in lue of vegetable oil, flax and rape seed oils. (Flax and rape seed oils are ideal)

The linoleic acid will greatly increase mycelium growth, compost colonization rates (eg. "spawn run"), and mushroom yield over many breaks (aka flushes). When I make mushroom compost I apply molasses, but only after the thermohpilic stage because molasses can hinder the de-ligninization by white rot fungi (WRF), and even by brown rot fungi (esp. for cellulose). I highly depend upon WRF to pretreat wheat straw to de-ligninfy the straw so it can be further, and more easily, microbially processed as a carbon source. Another benefit of adding molasses after the thermophilic stage is it can increase numbers of actinobacteria (as will application of saw dust).

I definitely prefer pale malt extract (PME) as a glucose source over molasses for mycological work, agar, liquid cultures, etc. It has been rare to find use of molasses use in mycology, in my experience. I have some read some works by Stamets regarding molasses, thanks for reminding me, I will have to re-read it to refresh myself. Have you read his current books? Corn sugar is a cheap dextrose source.

I have added PME, and dark ME to compost pile (in water), I had good results. My fear with applying molasses and other such items to compost piles is it can mess up the microbial balance. I think use for specific purposes is good. When I applied the carbs I also applied kelp extract and hydrolyzed fish.

(Here is an example, there's lots of studies out there)

"YIELD RESPONSE OF SELECTED MUSHROOM STRAINS TO VEGETABLE OIL SUPPLEMENTATION"
Author(s): L. C. Schisler and T. G. Patton, Jr.
Department of Plant Pathology, The Pennsylvania State University, University Park, Pennsylvania, U.S.A.

Thanks as always

 

[ganja din]

@ DM, I forgot to write that calcitic lime is commonly known as agricultural lime. It can be found in powder form at many big box harware stores, and also agricultural stores like 'seed and feed' stores.

 

[Microbeman]

Thanks for that. Any idea of the effectiveness of molasses vs other fungal foods? I would prefer to use only molasses if that's an option. Have you done test brews of ACT with molasses v other fungal foods?

I have not done any tightly run trials to discern this. I had used molasses previously to do comparisons with Great Pacific Bioproducts fish hydrolysate and the hyd. won out but molasses still grew good hyphae. Often when I do testing in my little containers molasses grows out both fungi and bacteria/archaea (B/A) and often the B/A munches on the hyphae. If I don't want so much B/A in order to observe the hyphae over time, I use hydrolysate rather than molasses. Last Spring I did some short tests with CT Guy and he was surprised that the black strap molasses grew out the hyphae.

 

[DARC MIND]

Ganja
Thanks for the apology, I hope you get better.

I understand fungal microbes do use molasses, as does yeast, etc,, but is it as efficient or effective as other more fungal foods?...

Diversity my brother, molasses will feed fungi but be creative on the foods. I think a diverse fungi diet will be more effective then any just one fungi food.
Id throw every fungi food at them, but that’s me. NO microscope, just crop/plant results…

@ DM, I forgot to write that calcitic lime is commonly known as agricultural lime. It can be found in powder form at many big box harware stores, and also agricultural stores like 'seed and feed' stores.

Agricultural lime I have used, I thought it was dolomite lime. I didn’t check the ingredients so I may have used calcitic lime before.. thanks for the feed back, again ill keep an eye out

Microbeman
I too believe it was Elaine that said, when molasses is added, the tea’s lean towards the more bacterial side. Im sure % of molasses, other ingredients, type of compost, time etc etc all play a part on the end product, so the claims are not an exact science.
She also said something about simple carbohydrates help bacteria while more complex carbs breeds fungi.. IMHO diversity is key, so I don’t only use molasses for carbs, there are plenty of materials to choose from..
But I’d put my money on, that if you have a fungi dominant compost to start, then its fungi who will use the benefits of molasses.
Here’s a quote I found,

Foods to feed beneficial fungi are things like coco-fiber (a renewable material), wood (also renewable), shredded paper, peat moss (but too expensive anymore and not a sustainable material; yes it can be renewed, but only if you leave large areas in swamp and leave it alone for oh, 100,000 years), oat flour, bran, corn gluten, dead leaves, humic acids, fulvic acid (although some bacteria compete pretty well with fungi in using fulvics).... .........
<><><><><><><><><><><><><>
Dr. Elaine Ingham
Soil Foodweb, Incorporated
info@soilfoodweb.comhttp://www.soilfoodweb.com/phpweb/

all can be added to compost to make a fungi dominant compost (no turning) and some can be added to tea’s.

also here’s a nice read
http://bama.ua.edu/~ksuberkp/bsc472/lectures/Fungal%20nutrition.htm
some good stuff

 

[DankByNature]

Gypsum is an excellent ammendment to add Ca and Mg while being pH neutal. It is used to alleviate compaction and it also neutralizes salts.

Dolomitic and calcitic lime would be best choices.

Does anyone have experience about using the above together, or does everyone stick to the either/or?

Would there be any benefit to 2 cups calcitic and 2 cups dolomitic to the regular 4 cups of just one of those?

Thanks