Best soil to use and where to get it.

[chef]

Damn, I actually think I posted in the wrong thread or the guy deleted his post?

People had him so noided out on things, he was going to eliminate perlite from his mix, he didn't want to screw up his grow. Sry, it kinds pissed me off & made me feel sry for the guy. Perlite is huge, probably the most important part of a soil mix, air is everything.

I truly felt like apologizing until I reread the thread & saw ol VF's original input.

Ignore the troll.

LOL ya that is what I was thinking. Anyhooooo, coco is a great ADDITIVE to our peat grows. I find it help with the CEC. And BTW....I have no problems and run it mixed to50% peat and 50% coco and my organic additives.........no cal\mg problems but I have only been growing for a couple of months. LOL

V

Mmmmkay, this after I had said

Screw coco, stick to peat until you get a few grows experience. A lot less problems.
This stick to peat is really good advice for a beginner, have many grows with that crap in the mix & know this as fact!
I ran a dirt shootout & the coco mix finished last with the usual coco curse yellowing. Yes I know how to prevent it, but why? see below...
Personally, I'm not changing one damn thing in my methods or recipes simply to accomodate some waste product in my soil mix.
Hell, 1/2 the infirmary issues are coco curse related lol Its a real simple fix... Throw it back in the trash where it came from.
If you do choose to use coco? Better buy stock in Cal-Mag lol
Anyone with any coco experience, should at least get a small chuckle outta that & I didnt even bring up all the N/K & potential lockout issues.l

A couple months experience & its a great ADDITIVE???

I did learn 1 thing tho... Never say "Screw Coco" amongst a bunch of coco groupies lol This shit is more flammable than PC vs Mac debates

 

[DankByNature]

Ingredients:
• 1 Bale ProMix BX w/ Mycorrhizae
• 20-50 lbs. Worm castings
• 16 Quarts Perlite
• 4 Cups Dolimitic Lime
• 4 Cups Greensand
• 4 Cups Kelp Meal
• 4 Cups Bat Guano (High N for Veg, High P for Flower)
• 2 Cups Gypsum
• 2 Cups Rare Earth
• Beneficial Microorganism(water in with a gallon of water each time soil is turned)
Innoculaid and beneficial bacteria mix

Mix all ingredients in a large tarp until all ingredients are evenly distributed throughout the soil. Pour or Spray a gallon of beneficial microorganisms on the soil mix and turn several times. After a week, turn and pour another gallon of water on the mix. Mix 2-3 weeks prior to soil use.

 

[vonforne]

A couple months experience & its a great ADDITIVE???

That was a joke dip shit.



And I do not believe any one said NOT t use perlite.

Now stop trolling.

And if you do not choose to do it on your own we will see if someone will help you out.

Goodbye

 

[ganja din]

hey

I think maybe this big post I just made about all kinds of issues to consider when designing a soilless media. IMO, it's def worth reading, and will for sure allow one to make the best soil designed specifically for cannabis

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showpost.php?p=2787669&postcount=174

HTH

 

[chef]

Now its name callin' time aye?

It is kinda hard to argue with good solid advice ain't it?

what a fucktard

 

[JJScorpio]

Now its name callin' time aye?

It is kinda hard to argue with good solid advice ain't it?

what a fucktard

If you have something positive to add to the discussion, so be it, but if not, move along....

 

[chef]

no prob JJ I'm done for good lol

 

[VerdantGreen]

weighing out your soil is anal!

chef - it's not weighing the soil but the additives - you have to measure them in somehow so weighing is quicker for me.

ive seen your posts elsewhere on the forum and you are clearly not without some intelligence. you run a big grow - why not make a positive contribution here instead of just trying to wind people up?

sure anyone can grow weed, but we want to grow weed well, and in that attention to detail is essential. if thats not what you want to do then stick to the tokers den mate.

V.

p.s. sorry JJ i didnt see your post

 

[VerdantGreen]

lol,...agreed....and dont forget worm castings, i posted in another thread, "you will never regret buying worm poop..." and i think the same will apply here. another thing i've discovered is mixing rocks or gravel in your mix, you can find it anywhere and usually for free, it helps with drainage and judging from my last grow, i wouldnt be surprised if your plant actually gets some trace minerals from the rocks themselves..i could be wrong about this but it definitely made a difference.

you should look into rock dusts which are fine enough to (slowly) add some minerals - especially if you re-use your soil. just plain rocks will not do this without being ground up (or the effect will be negligable)- they've sat there for millions of years and if they were soluble they would have disappeared by now. what you are doing by adding rocks is reducing the volume and thus the fertility of your soil. stones and rocks are dead space ( but if you are over feeding your plants then they may help) they will add drainage but perlite or sand does this much better. the weight of rocks can also compact your soil.

V.

 

[jaykush]

and I used to think Organics was simple......

it is...people make it complicated.

 

[ganja din]

Hey,

Please take no offense. Here is what imo is ideal for cannabis. IMO, all pre-made soilless media are FAR from ideal, the same goes for every DIY soilless media mix for cannabis I have ever read. Those which rely upon peat or coir, or other material with lots of particles smaller then 1/8 inch, or that compresses easily, are far from ideal. For in depth info I wrote yesterday on these measurements and other necessary info, like DIY methods for the measurements, please see the URL (to my big post) which I posted a few posts up ^^^.

Cannabis roots are fibrous, so they can withstand a lower % air porosity than fleshy roots.

ideal for cannabis roots:

(No drainage layer! Ex. Layer of rocks, perlite, etc, at bottom of container)

- % air porosity = 25-40%

- % water holding porosity = 15-25%

- % total porosity = >50%

- % moisture content = 50-55% (45-60% is ok)

- CEC = ~ >50 meq/100g

- pH = 5.5 to 6.5

- Water release rate = should be good, >60 or 70%

- Media particle pore size = 1 micron (< and >1 micron is ok)

- Particle size = 1/8 inch to 1/4 inch

Reasons for screened particle size:

Smaller than 1/8 inch particle size will stop water from draining thus creating, or raising the perched water table (PWT).

Larger then 1/4 inch particle size and microbial communities have a hard time forming. Especially bacteria, the gaps between particles hinder the formation of bacterial colonies and bio-film.

Re: coir and peat: They both have many particles smaller then 1/8 inch, and they compress which further reduces the effective particle size for % air porosity, thus creating, or increasing PWT.

I have used this mix with great success:

IMO this is the best mix for cannabis, that is, when apply organic ferts at watering (ex. hydrolyzed fish, humic and fulvic acids, kelp extracts, etc). I have yet to send soilless media samples for bio-assays, I will when I can, but in my research, and experience, the mix I propose is a fine 'home' for microbes.

(Screened from 1/8 inch to 1/4 inch)

- 50-60% Aged pine bark fines

- 25-35% Axis regular (pre-rinsed)

- 2-4% Straw based compost (fungal and bacterial) [not screened]

- 2-4% Vermicast [not screened]

- Zeolite powder (for CEC)

- Azomite (volcanic rock powder for microbes and eventually the plant)

- Calcitic lime (micronized for pH and Ca)

- Dolomitic lime (micronized for pH and Mg)

- Tween 80 as surfactant when initial moistening media.

HTH

 

[chef]

@ VerdantGreen
I said I was done, but I can't NOT reply to such a level headed post.

Nothing personal, was more just frustrated with this whole trainwreck of a thread lol
Bad attempt at trying to get the guy (in the missing post lol) to lighten up a bit & not worry so much. Jaykusk's post above nails it.

I am truly intrigued about your idea of adding topsoil to your mix. I've always wrote it off as too risky for introducing pests/pathogens. The thing I am really wondering about, is the ability of topsoils to actually impart their distinct flavors to the final smoke?
Case in point, was some really good spicy brick that would show up occasionally years ago. Every time we'd fire some up, I'd swear you could taste the "Red Dirt" in it. It was a really nice compliment to the spicy flavor.
IMO, these sweet & fruit strains nowadays are damn near perfection the way they are, but I think it could really add some character to those that lean more towards the spicier side of life?

If you want to start off a new "Topsoil" thread & post up what you already know/discovered about it, I'd be more than happy to contribute on this flavor slant.
I have a nice layer of bright red soil right up the road, have been wondering about this for a long time. Time to run a side by side & see?

I have a thai cross that might work?
I would think that the hash from a good hashplant might benefit from the flavor too?

I'll keep a cork in it lol

 

[vonforne]

Now its name callin' time aye?

It is kinda hard to argue with good solid advice ain't it?

what a fucktard

Sorry for the name. It is unbecoming of me. If you have some good info then post it up. Like V. said you have a nice grow going and could have some info to add.

I am always open to advice.

V

 

[getawaycar]

"ability of topsoils to actually impart their distinct flavors to the final smoke"

id like to read a discussion on if this is possible...

seen hydroponic additives that claim to impart flavors in the flowers and fruit bodys (berry, citrus) but think its debatable if "flavorings" can enter a plant by the root system.

possibly just certain ratios of npk and trace minerals that in combination with the genetic pattern of the plant brings out the undertoned tastes that were already predispositioned to the buds to begin with?

im trying to understand it.

 

[chef]

At first I thought... Fk, now every person I've had a run in with lately is in this thread lol
Then it dawned on me, good place to put this shit to rest

@ Ganja Din
Just like the other uber grokked microbe thread, do you have a shred of evidence on how anything relates to cannabis?
I admire your passion & can hang with you thru the vast majority of it. but damn! See jaykush's post above.
Personally, when I get onto a subject, I have cuts/seeds going within hours to prove/disprove my latest whatever. << I almost typed hypothesis lol feeling kinda anal retentive today

Anyway, you evidently have this stuff grokked? so lets see you put it to some use & in a form that the average cannabis grower can really use.
That & you ignoring the same question on the other thread is my only beef whatsoever.

Something keeps compelling me to type "Put up or shut up" but I wont lol

Seriously, hats off for all your hard work

P.S. Aged forest bark aye? Been wondering when a bark based grow medium like rapid rooters would appear? You got me intrigued now too.

 

[ijimunot]

I love chunky coco insted of pearlite but its a pain in the a** to find in most of the country and cost more to ship than its worth. Same with chunky pearlite, guano and castings. If you can find lava rock or pumice at your local retailer it will work just fine. Pro mix and Espoma ferts are easy to find and work quite well. Urin is free and a half bucket of manuer, fresh grass and weed clippings toped off with water and left to steep a couple of weeks will supply you with most of the weekly ferts and goodies. Lights, fans and all that stuff will robb you of your cash quickly. Tons of cheap soil n ferts out there you dont have to follow those with deep pockets. Its a weed grow it.

 

[chef]

Sorry for the name. It is unbecoming of me. If you have some good info then post it up. Like V. said you have a nice grow going and could have some info to add.

I am always open to advice.

V

Likewise vonforne hope you will accept mine as well.


@ Getawaycar
Its mostly voodoo at this point, totally breaking my sig rule lol
I simply based it on observations I've made over the years, that had no other explanation. I'm also guessing that the micro nutes are the culprits, if there is anything to this at all? I based that on very basic knowledge of Red dirt = high iron content, blue/green = high copper etc. & that you could simply taste "dirt" but in a good way.
What brings my theory full circle is I grew up racing motoX, have probably tasted every flavor of dirt in the PNW A lot of'em are unique! lol

 

[ganja din]

@ chef,

A couple of quick notes:

--> I find it odd you believe you speak for the majority of people in this sub-forum.

--> See the title of the thread, "Best soil to use and where to get it". I am responding directly to the OPs question. If the thread title was about "simple" media would not have posted...jeeeze!

--> I find it odd you would pass judgment on what I propose with taking the time to read the link I referred to. All you issues should be addressed there.

--> Because what I'm writing is heresy I will write a thread on the subject, the issues I am writing about are critically important to build a soilless media which offers the best environ for roots and microbes. Especially the % air porosity, % water holding porosity, particle size and pore size, etc. I realize I am stating most understanding about ideal cannabis soilless media is wrong (well, mostly all understanding by many cannabis growers at least).

--> If you want the best mix (imo) and according to soil science, then just use the simple recipe I posted at the bottom of my last post.

--> If you want to understand why the mix I propose is superior to peat and coir bases mixes please read my long post re: perched water table (which I already linked to). The science I am using is solid and has been around for decades. I cite most info from the now defunct Cornell U. Ornamental Horticulture Soil Science. I provide links to wayback machine

-Read this first, you need to read the two must read links I provide (to Cornell U. and Al from gardenweb): https://www.icmag.com/ic/showpost.php?p=2787669&postcount=174

-Then read this: https://www.icmag.com/ic/showpost.php?p=2787669&postcount=175

-And one last measurement method: https://www.icmag.com/ic/showpost.php?p=2787669&postcount=176

--> Perched Water Table (PWT) is a very important concern if using peat or coir. Please see my previous comments in the post. Also, the first link above has the main info for PWT issues. (From Al)

--> The reason this info is accurate for cannabis is that cannabis has fibrous roots and otherwise similar to other C3 grasses and plants. One must remember, cannabis plants follow the same rules as other similar plants and grasses. Cannabis aint no alien.

Anyway, you evidently have this stuff grokked? so lets see you put it to some use & in a form that the average cannabis grower can really use.

Already done. Did you even read my post you are referring to?

(Once again...)

I have used this mix with great success:

IMO this is the best mix for cannabis, that is, when apply organic ferts at watering (ex. hydrolyzed fish, humic and fulvic acids, kelp extracts, etc). I have yet to send soilless media samples for bio-assays, I will when I can, but in my research, and experience, the mix I propose is a fine 'home' for microbes.

(Screened from 1/8 inch to 1/4 inch)

- 50-60% Aged pine bark fines

- 25-35% Axis regular (pre-rinsed)

- 2-4% Straw based compost (fungal and bacterial) [not screened]

- 2-4% Vermicast [not screened]

- Zeolite powder (for CEC)

- Azomite (volcanic rock powder for microbes and eventually the plant)

- Calcitic lime (micronized for pH and Ca)

- Dolomitic lime (micronized for pH and Mg)

- Tween 80 as surfactant when initial moistening media.

HTH

That & you ignoring the same question on the other thread is my only beef whatsoever.

I have no idea what you are referring to.

 

[chef]

@ chef,

A couple of quick notes:

--> I find it odd you believe you speak for the majority of people in this sub-forum.

Just for myself, maybe a few on the other thread?

--> See the title of the thread, "Best soil to use and where to get it". I am responding directly to the OPs question. If the thread title was about "simple" media would not have posted...jeeeze!

How long did this take you to compile?
You spent 2 whole weeks (your words) compiling the myco is bogus info, but serve it up like an unquestionable authority on the subject?
My problem is, I KNOW for a fact from side by side runs, Myco innoculated soil (using Great White ATM) outperforms non-innoculated when it comes to Cannabis Flower production...Fact!
Great White is simply the biggest shotgun I can find at the moment.

--> I find it odd you would pass judgment on what I propose with taking the time to read the link I referred to. All you issues should be addressed there.

I can't help but find the way you point to links & white paper data as fact in relation to MJ laughable. We're talkin Cannabis Flowers here, not Wheat Heads

--> Because what I'm writing is heresy I will write a thread on the subject, the issues I am writing about are critically important to build a soilless media which offers the best environ for roots and microbes. Especially the % air porosity, % water holding porosity, particle size and pore size, etc. I realize I am stating most understanding about ideal cannabis soilless media is wrong (well, mostly all understanding by many cannabis growers at least).

Pretty big claim that a simple trial run would confirm. I might have to agree with the basic statement tho.
I am truly intrigued by the Bark...
Is it similar to Rapid Rooter plugs?
Any reason for Pine?

--> If you want the best mix (imo) and according to soil science, then just use the simple recipe I posted at the bottom of my last post.

Have my own, just spent the last year dialing it in.
Still going to try Pumice Rock as a Perlite replacement @ $50 a dump truck load. My latest tweak is pumped up EWC/Perlite ratios using 3 kinds of EWC for a diverse microherd population. Definate performance gain & all my strains have a "sugar lip" aftertaste now. Most noticeable on my Trainwreck hybrid, probably because it was the most unsweet of the flavors. So sweet they should smell like a burning sugar cube. I'm amazed.

--> If you want to understand why the mix I propose is superior to peat and coir bases mixes please read my long post re: perched water table (which I already linked to). The science I am using is solid and has been around for decades. I cite most info from the now defunct Cornell U. Ornamental Horticulture Soil Science. I provide links to wayback machine

The PWT measurement is cool I see how having at least a baseline measurement would be handy for dialing in optimum drip rates.
Axis sounds really cool too, no way am I screening 150gals of soil a month tho lol
I plan on really looking over all your PWT info.

-Read this first, you need to read the two must read links I provide (to Cornell U. and Al from gardenweb): https://www.icmag.com/ic/showpost.php?p=2787669&postcount=174

-Then read this: https://www.icmag.com/ic/showpost.php?p=2787669&postcount=175

-And one last measurement method: https://www.icmag.com/ic/showpost.php?p=2787669&postcount=176

--> Perched Water Table (PWT) is a very important concern if using peat or coir. Please see my previous comments in the post. Also, the first link above has the main info for PWT issues. (From Al)

--> The reason this info is accurate for cannabis is that cannabis has fibrous roots and otherwise similar to other C3 grasses and plants. One must remember, cannabis plants follow the same rules as other similar plants and grasses. Cannabis aint no alien.

Again, it ain't no Wheat Head either

Already done. Did you even read my post you are referring to?

(Once again...)

I have used this mix with great success:

Any pics at all?

IMO this is the best mix for cannabis, that is, when apply organic ferts at watering (ex. hydrolyzed fish, humic and fulvic acids, kelp extracts, etc). I have yet to send soilless media samples for bio-assays, I will when I can, but in my research, and experience, the mix I propose is a fine 'home' for microbes.

We are for sure on the same page regarding nutes, sounds spot on to me.

(Screened from 1/8 inch to 1/4 inch)

- 50-60% Aged pine bark fines

- 25-35% Axis regular (pre-rinsed)

- 2-4% Straw based compost (fungal and bacterial) [not screened]

- 2-4% Vermicast [not screened]

- Zeolite powder (for CEC)

- Azomite (volcanic rock powder for microbes and eventually the plant)

- Calcitic lime (micronized for pH and Ca)

- Dolomitic lime (micronized for pH and Mg)

- Tween 80 as surfactant when initial moistening media.

HTH

I have no idea what you are referring to.

I was referring to this... http://www.icmag.com/ic/showpost.php?p=2742010&postcount=46

I got caned once already for suggesting a simple side by side lol not interested in going back or making any amends over there.

Its real simple to run a side by side for both your myco & soil theories, make a believer outta everyone

 

[maryjohn]

hey ganja,

I keep a tray under my containers that is filled with pebbles. I have more or less lc's mix with some coco from my vermicompost (yes I said it ). Usually when I water, I do so by putting water in the tray, just over the pebbles. if it drinks fast, I add more, and I keep it going until it stays steady. Then I don't water again until the pebbles dry out. Meanwhile, I have a water bottle with a clay spike that just sweats.

So does having the drainage layer outside the pot help, since the pot has good contact with standing water without risk of root rot for a time?


Just trying to do what I can as I can't get that kick ass DE amendment you refer to.