War breaks out within the marijuana legalization movement

[fatigues]

CCi is in danger people.. California people need to understand we are the people and unfunded.

If we don't get the signatures you won't have a choice..

Prop 215 would not have got the necessary signatures to qualify either if the money and pros didn't climb aboard and hire the people to get those sigs -- and then fund the initiative through to completion.

Being right -- or the "best" -- isn't enough on its own. The CCI needs $1 million to get off the ground. And even that probably won't be enough to get it out of the first heat and on to the ballot.

Richard Lee has already pledged that kind of money; Omar Figueroa does not and has not.

That doesn't make Lee right and Figueroa wrong. It doesn't make people here who are passionate about CCI wrong and TC2010 the be-all and end-all of rightness.

But it does mean that one of these initiatives has a significantly stronger chance than the other of actually succeeding.

Do keep that in mind.

 

[JackTheGrower]

Yeah but the one that still sends up to prison? I don't see your all that.

You don't even live here. Gawd man..

 

[decrimCA]

funny enough...

funny enough...

Keep in mind that Prop. 5 failed in 2008.

But, I do agree with you that the amnesty clause in the CCI does not automatically make it "politically defective." To win over voters, we should remind them how much money would be saved by releasing non-violent pot smokers and dealers.

I was just on another board that had a similar conversation going on. Though I'd repost that with the response I gave. Money really is what makes the world go round, isn't it?

New Orleans -District Attorney Leon Cannizzaro says moving some misdemeanor cases out of criminal court would speed up the prosecution of violent crime cases.

There are 2,200 open cases in Orleans Parish Criminal District Court - 700 of those are simple marijuana possession cases.

And some say that's clogging the system.

"This is a court that is designed and its main purpose is to handle the serious and violent offenders, the crimes that are in the City of New Orleans. If we could remove one-third of that docket out of the criminal district court and place them in the municipal court, where all the other misdemeanor cases are handled, then it frees up some of our resources to concentrate on the more violent offenses," says District Attorney Leon Cannizzaro.

Cannizzaro's idea to move simple marijuana possession cases to municipal court gets strong backing from criminal justice watchdogs at the Metropolitan Crime Commission.

"This isn't about being soft on crime. This isn't about legalizing marijuana. It isn't about not taking enforcement action because it's still a criminal offense in municipal court just as it would be in criminal district court," said Rafael Goyeneche.

While moving simple pot possession cases from Tulane and Broad a block away to municipal court may sound simple, it has become a complicated issue.

The move affects almost every division of the criminal justice system financially especially when it comes to criminal court.

"It's all, almost always about the money, almost always," says former Chief Judge Calvin Johnson.

The current chief judge at criminal court claims it's not about the money but declined to do an interview. But Johnson talked candidly on the topic.

"The actual needs of the community should drive funding, not funding driving or defining what the needs are."

Cannizzarro says criminal court would lose about $300,000 that comes from fees and fines imposed on marijuana possession offenders. If the cases move to municipal court, so does the money.

Johnson admits that is a hardship for criminal court judges, but says the city's criminal justice leaders need to look at the bigger picture.

"The city is going to have to come to the realization that the city council is going to have to look at how the criminal justice system is funded in New Orleans. No one really wants to talk about it from this perspective, but it's time now for us to do so," said Johnson.

Councilman James Carter heads the the City Council's Criminal Justice Committee. He's studying Cannizzaro's idea and doesn't believe money is an issue.

"I would hate to think that's the motivation here. I think that the people on our criminal justice system are more so concerned about the safety of the citizens than any monetary issues," said Carter.

There's another dynamic included in this $300,000 criminal court budget loss. That money comes from fees and fines paid by simple marijuana possession defendants. Those fees are imposed by the judges, and some believe that's a conflict of interest.

"You can't as a judge sit up there and depend on your court operating based on the fines that you access against the person who's in front of you. It kind of makes us look bad. It made us look bad as judges to say that if I have an opportunity to pose a sentence and if probation is available, or I can impose fines and it means I'm going to get the benefit of those fines," said Cannizzaro, who used to be a criminal court judge.

A spokesman for Cannizzaro's office says under state law the DA can move the simple marijuana possession cases to municipal court without input from other parts of the criminal justice system, but Cannizzaro says he'd rather have everyone on the same page.


NewsHawk:
Source: fox8live.com
Author: Val Bracy
Copyright: 2009 Louisiana Media Company, LLC

MY RESPONSE:


This is the eternal debate - can the government still make money if criminals aren't criminals anymore. And while this certainly does have some merit (or we could go into the idea that the government needs to learn how to spend the money it does have, rather than just charging people ridiculous fines...), I think the government needs to realize that opening up marijuana to legalization can be a financial boon as well.

Think about what would happen if the government were to legalize and then they could tax the living daylights out of it. This would most certainly recoup the losses they might have in the court system. Plus, if marijuana was legal, then the government could create a system of licensing for people to become growers - which might also cost money. Those without licenses to grow (just like in any business) could also be fined if they are not doing what they are supposed to do.

Really, all legalization would do would create more opportunities for governments to make money. At least, that's what I think would happen. But it seems until the 'drugs are bad' motto is brainwashed out of society that pot is just going to be in the middle of a ridiculous battle.

Most of the pharmaceuticals that are legal are way more dangerous than pot. Heck, cigarettes and alcohol are legal and they are horrible on the human body when used in excess - and even when not used in excess.

*steps off soapbox*

Thanks for posting this. Ridiculous, but something that will hopefully promote more discussions.

 

[ChronJohn]

if Cali's gonna do it, they gotta do it right. this is a voter initiative.. no amending that shit without another initiative. Oaksterdam's initiative is no bueno. A wolf in sheep's clothing. If it passes, cannabis consumers and growers will still be criminals! There is no possession limit on tobacco, or alcohol, why the limit for cannabis? Why the grow space limit? We cannot allow it to pass! As bassackwards and twilight-zone as it sounds, we CANNOT "legalize" by passing the Oaksterdam Initiative. Sadly, the ignorant and uninformed majority of cannabis consumers and legalization-friendly non users will just vote anyways, not realizing the implications of doing so. It's heartbreaking.

 

[Pythagllio]

CCi is in danger people.. California people need to understand we are the people and unfunded.

If we don't get the signatures you won't have a choice..

Money talks, bullshit walks.

Total waste of effort and resources anyway. CCI = DOA

 

[fatigues]

Money talks, bullshit walks.

Total waste of effort and resources anyway. CCI = DOA

Keeping one's words soft and sweet in case you are forced to eat them, is a worthwhile thing to keep in mind.

I wouldn't characterize anyone's beliefs that are obivously important to them and which arouse such passions in them as being "bullshit" or "a waste". They may be imprudent, and they may be impractical - but I'll never spit on them or denigrate what motivates a guy like Jack to go out and collect signatures. I think, deep down, that not bullshit at all; to the contrary, I think it's rather noble, actually.

I don't agree with the strategy perhaps, but I do admire his passion. I suggest you do as well.

We do need to remember we really are on the same side of this thing.

 

[skunkluber]

yeah, I have no desire to see marijuana being commercialized, even the medical marijuana scene at the moment is a farce.. all the cultivars are high thc street type cannabis and the prices are just insane, legalizing personal cultivation is the way to go, for those who don't have the space or equipment to grow it, they could rent space in dedicated growshops.. I know I don't want to see it taxed or commercialized. There's also a need for regulation, just like natural health products with outlandish claims, there are a bunch of naturalists going crazy over fda regulations on 'natural' cancer cures.. which have not been proven effective, snake oil is bad, consumer protection is needed..

Man if you want a job in Washington State your hired. If your not the Guy I am thinking of I would also like to Offer a Job to Denis Peron as a lobbyist against the taxations of cannabis. I am not really on either side of this issue but I have to say that Jack Herer is My hero in the Hemp/Cannabis scene and anything he believes in that passionately I will follow and support. If this makes me an enemy of people that really sucks because I really like everyone I know in the med community and I want us all to get allong. I am sure there is someway for this issue to be negotiated/debated in an appropriate venue. Maybe Ic Mag would host it and we could have a cannabis cup to support it. I know that I would be down to participate and donate to that cause. I want all of us that are anti prohibition in any way no matter if your medical or recreational or cash cropping, or a hemp industrialist and dont even smoke. I believe that we can work together on this and that we need too. this is a classic case of divide and conquer. I know we cant always agree on everything and that some times gets in the way of our goals. I pray and hope that we can find some kind of middleground here. If not I fear that big tobacco is going to take all the cash croppers business, Big pharma is going to make some extract that might be missing a few active or inactive ingredients that may be what actually helps people like me such as CBD CB1 and CB2, or Bio and polyflavanoids. I am sure that those are beneficial to human health. Not to mention the fact that our government here in the USA is fighting against industrialized hemp (that contains 1 percent cannabinoids or less) from being grown here when the U.S. shure needs some kind of gross domestic product to bring us out of this energy crisis/economic crisis. What other substance known to man can solve almost every existing problem the country of the Republic of The United States of America currently faces. I would like to make clear I am not a nationalist, I just dont know enough about any other countrys problems to speak on them truthfully and with sources. Is anyone here concerned that all of the cannabis genetics are currently being patented so that we medical patients will have to take what we are given or go back to being illegal niether of which I will accept.

 

[maxxim]

I seriously don`t know where you people come from with your no taxing the sale and purchase of MJ.....

Do you seriously believe that dope growers and weed dealers shouldn`t have to pay taxes but firemen, teachers, and everyone else in the country do pay their taxes? Where is the logic in that?

Why should we let MJ growers and sellers drive on the streets, call 911, or use any public services that they are not paying for?

 

[texsativa]

I chuckled when I read this.....

Look the truth hurts. Everyone on this site is a wannabe pot millionaire. Everyone on this site is going to be growing their weed to sell in their bodega and get rich right.... Everyone on this site thinks they have a leg up because they are in the game early.

I`m not on this site trying to stop everyone from being able to grow their own or fulfill their dream of becoming rich. I just want to help you secure the ability to reach those goals without being crushed by huge faceless corporations destroying the market.



The taxes would only apply to the weed bought and sold in shops. Although outdoor growing may require a permit just like a yard sale now costs something like 10 bucks.... Is that too much to ask?



America is full of stupid people to the point that they said "WalMart" is the company that best represents America.... Put that nugget in your pipe...

See you all when I`m back from work...

Well I can't let this one pass without sticking my 2 cents worth in.

I can see several aspects of the push for legalization in either an all out form where everyone can possess cannabis or even with the medical marijuana end of it. And much of that is because of the people who are representing this movement. By this I mean whenever there is a march in Austin where I live it looks one of the hippy marches that I saw as a child in Washington DC during the vietnam war. Tie-die and white boys with dreadlocks does not play well with the mainstream voting populace. If we want to be taken seriously they (the people who don't smoke, but are not sure how to vote) need to see the normal everyday people who are using cannabis. The mainstream, hard working, community contributing people that most of us are is the image that we should be trying to promote.
Don't get me wrong, I don't care how you wear your hair or how many piercings you have, but the primary voter base does. And with the older voter base of people in their late 50's to late 60's, the baby boomers, which are the largest and stongest voter base in this country. The hippy image brings back many bad memories of a bad time in this country's history. I know that most of you youngsters see it as some happy go lucky party time, but it wasn't and there was a lot of hurt that came from it and is still lingering.

My second issue is some of the dumb ass shit that the people writing these innitiatives and bills are putting into them. Take for example the bill for legalization in Alaska several years back where one of the things in their bill was for the people who had been arrested during the time that it was illegal be released from prison because what they had done was nolonger illegal. LOL, well it was illegal when they did it. They knew it was illegal and broke the law anyway. So why should they be let out. It was ridiculous. The voters read the bill and voted a resounding NO. Which takes me to another thing that really bothers me about much of the legislation that is being written sounds like it was written by a bunch of pipe dreaming potheads and that is because it is being written by a bunch of pipe dreaming potheads.

The last thing that bothers me is this push for no taxation on a product that will be sold. This doesn't apply to someone who grows their own of course. But the idea that you can grow a product and sell it for a profit and not pay any takes on said product is just stupid. I bred boas and pythons for years and when I sold at shows I had to pay sales tax just like anyone that is selling a product has to do. So if they are selling cannabis at a dispensary of course they should be paying taxes. If you grow it at home and sell it to people and make your income on it. You should pay taxes. You think those people at your local farmers market who are selling their produce don't pay taxes? Well they do.
If you want to grow your own weed and smoke your own weed or give it to friends and patients to smoke then you woud have no need to pay taxes.

These are my opinions so please don't go pissing on them as you don't want the government pissing you your rights and opinions.



Happy Growing.

Well said.

Allows people 21 years old or older to possess, cultivate, or transport marijuana for personal use. Permits local governments to regulate and tax commercial production and sale of marijuana to people 21 years old or older
.
.
.
Section 11300: Personal Regulation and Controls
(a) Notwithstanding any other provision of law, it is lawful and shall not be a public offense under California law for any person 21 years of age or older to:
(i) Personally possess, process, share, or transport not more than one ounce of cannabis, solely for that individual’s personal consumption, and not for sale.
(ii) Cultivate, on private property by the owner, lawful occupant, or other lawful resident or guest of the private property owner or lawful occupant, cannabis plants for personal consumption only, in an area of not more than twenty-five square feet per private residence or, in the absence of any residence, the parcel. Cultivation on leased or rented property may be subject to approval from the owner of the property. Provided that, nothing in this section shall permit unlawful or unlicensed cultivation of cannabis on any public lands.
(iii) Possess on the premises where grown the living and harvested plants and results of any harvest and processing of plants lawfully cultivated pursuant to section 11300(a)(ii), for personal consumption.
(iv) Possess objects, items, tools, equipment, products and materials associated with activities permitted under this subsection.
http://taxcannabis2010.org/initiative.php

The oaksterdam initiative is not a compromise, it's one man's effort to make mj quasi-legal according to his terms and for his financial benefit. I'll never vote for that piece of shit, even if it's the only initiative on the ballot!

Marijuana is legal enough in California right now. If we have to wait two years for decent legislation, so be it. If growers/users in the other 49 states don't like it, I'd suggest you start writing checks to the CCI folks to make sure that that initiative has a better chance. But, please, don't expect those of us here to saddle ourselves with bullshit laws just so that mj is quasi-legal here.

PC

So what happens if I have 2 ounces, or two pounds? Let's say I grow my little 25 sq.ft. patch and get four pounds, what am I supposed do, throw away 63 ounces and keep one?

TC2010 is a piece-of-shit law that we are better off without!!!!

Anyone who says, "Oh, let's just pass the law and worry about fixing the bad parts later is either ignorant, stupid or lying. That simply isn't the way things work in California.

PC

My friend, keep up the good fight.

A recent article comparing and contrasting the various initiatives underway describes the CCI in this fashion:

As I predicted, even the alternative media has latched onto the issue of retroactive amnesty and mass prisoner release immediately. That's before the Republicans and the Forces of Darkness have even come out swinging about the initiative -- as they are certain to do.

I don't dispute that getting the CCI passed would be a bolder and a more complete marijuana legalization ballot initiative. I don't dispute that those who are pro-Marijuana in California would be better off if the CCI was passed, as compared to TC2010. No argument on that issue at all.

That said, for those who think the CCI does not over-reach in how it deals with prisoner amnesty, you need a severe reality check. The presence of the retroactive amnesty provisions in the CCI results in a fundamentally politically defective ballot initiative which is higly unlikely to succeed at the polls.

Wake up guys. I'm not at all disputing about what the law should be, or what would be best. I am pointing out that some law is better than no law. And as drafted, "no law" is where CCI is headed politically. This is a defeat waiting to happen.

The Republican Right Wing is simply going to have a field day with the amnesty proposal. It makes defeat of this initiative, assuming it can even get enough signatures for certification, very likely.

I agree, I don't see this going anywhere with the amnesty clause.

I seriously don`t know where you people come from with your no taxing the sale and purchase of MJ.....

Do you seriously believe that dope growers and weed dealers shouldn`t have to pay taxes but firemen, teachers, and everyone else in the country do pay their taxes? Where is the logic in that?

Why should we let MJ growers and sellers drive on the streets, call 911, or use any public services that they are not paying for?

The firemen, teachers, and everyone else in the country are already paying taxes out the wazoo, taxing them even more for marijuana consumption makes them dig deeper in their pockets. Although, I agree if marijuana is to be sold out of commercial enterprises, then it should be taxed like everything else. Let the tax money go to social improvements such as school, drug rehab programs, science, a new space ship, you know those space ships we are still flying in are getting pretty old...etc.

Edit - Personally, it will not bother me at all if the initiative that passes includes the amnesty clause, but there are a lot of people who will care...for instance, think of all the law enforcement officials who have died or been injured arresting people for marijuana, do you think they would want that done in vain?

As well, having limited amounts of a substance, ie one ounce, gives law enforcement something to enforce. It also allows for the potential for more business to be done at dispensaries. What is the use of a three month grow if you can only keep one ounce legally? That is not very efficient at all.

 

[SpasticGramps]

I understand the anger behind taxation and for the government, but I really think it's a non-issue. It's going to be taxed and regulated like every other product on the market. It's going to be commercialized like every other product on the market. It's going to loosely follow existing business models. Although, the repeal of prohibition of MJ is going to be far more complex and interesting than it was for alcohol. MJ is going to be a monster once the stigma is gone and it becomes the new "trend."

 

[JackTheGrower]

The cultural impact is astounding from California's legalization "Church Bell" ringing these past few months IMO..

Oh the Haters are still organized but the key is to generate as many issues for them to hate as we can all at once..

Gay marriage, abortion coverage in our so called health care coverage and cannabis.. Now if we can also see about legal prostitution that just might help. Toss in some of the Right's triggers .. Child molestation, Terrorists and whatnot and maybe we can cause the spell to be broken and free thinking will emerge.

If we can overload the haters with hate work they may get stressed out and start to look like Morlocks of H.G. Wells's "Time Machine" fame.

 

[onegreenday]

That was an interesting read. I like this thread already.

My best position I can think of, just to offer something, is every person who has ever thought Cannabis should be legal are the people. In that, industry should take back seat to the human being.

Corporations are not alive. They are not human. If the Pro-Cannabis People somehow enable a cohabitation with industry in the "Cannabis bed" then Industry should thank one more level of Government, the most important, The people.
The People first.. No garden size restrictions. Horticulture is not the sole domain of industry.

Alright there is my main argument.

JackTheGrower

My argument is we did not need politicians for Prop 215 and we don't need them for legalization.

We can legalize anything we want as long as we get it on the ballot and the people vote for it.

And taxes are not part of the package to persuade voters.

No taxes on medicine or cultivation or sharing.

Sales tax may be appropriate of food & herbs are taxed in your state.

I do not believe in a SIN-TAX on herbs.

Herb is not the same as alcohol or cigarettes
and is stated in part of the controlled substances act;

cannabis is to be treated different.