Pruning a plant for clones
- Thread starter njayjay
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Strike99
Member
heres a link from the DIY list by pontiac....
A complete guide to topping, training and pruning by Kodiak - http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=115377
gives some examples of topping, pruning... definitely relatiable to producing mothers rdy for propagation... just to give you understanding of what you are doing... Topping/FIMing should give the affect your looking for...
another method which many are a fan of, including my self; is the bonsai method
ALL ABOUT BONSAI MOMS by oldtimer1 and others
- https://icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=31919
definitely a good one to check out... hopefully this helps....
S99
A complete guide to topping, training and pruning by Kodiak - http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=115377
gives some examples of topping, pruning... definitely relatiable to producing mothers rdy for propagation... just to give you understanding of what you are doing... Topping/FIMing should give the affect your looking for...
another method which many are a fan of, including my self; is the bonsai method
ALL ABOUT BONSAI MOMS by oldtimer1 and others
- https://icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=31919definitely a good one to check out... hopefully this helps....
S99
ItsAllOver
Devil's Advocate
Good reply Strike99.
Just to throw in
, I've really begun to believe in supercropping. I'll only do something as "stressful" as that during veg, LSTing if necessary during flowering, but there is no reason to take the time to LST during veg (as I used to spend much time on), because supercropping is so effective.
I don't see much need to prune mothers much other than the occasional cloning. That will keep them pretty nicely shaped. Just make sure to try and take your clones from the top an the inside of the plant, forming it into a cup shape, which will fill up over and over again.
Just to throw in
, I've really begun to believe in supercropping. I'll only do something as "stressful" as that during veg, LSTing if necessary during flowering, but there is no reason to take the time to LST during veg (as I used to spend much time on), because supercropping is so effective.I don't see much need to prune mothers much other than the occasional cloning. That will keep them pretty nicely shaped. Just make sure to try and take your clones from the top an the inside of the plant, forming it into a cup shape, which will fill up over and over again.
A
axel neek
Not recommended. Leave the fan leaves on unless they're crispy dead. Even if they're too far from the lights they're still used as energy reserves.
If you want to promote side shoot growths, pinch the stem above where you want side shoots to grow. Roll it in your fingers a bit so you actually damage the stem but not so much that it falls off. The side shoots will start while the stem above is being repaired.
If you want to promote side shoot growths, pinch the stem above where you want side shoots to grow. Roll it in your fingers a bit so you actually damage the stem but not so much that it falls off. The side shoots will start while the stem above is being repaired.
if you fim your plants before hand then super crop you can grow some pretty serious bushes. i personally like to take the bottom 1/4- to 1/3
off the plant about three weeks into veg, then again before it goes into flower. i've noticed that doing so helps you get some nice strong branches @ the top.
off the plant about three weeks into veg, then again before it goes into flower. i've noticed that doing so helps you get some nice strong branches @ the top.
ItsAllOver
Devil's Advocate
I think a lot of people are in your camp.
I'm not so sure about this, though. I have always done some removal of large fan leaves both on SOG and bush-type grows, and haven't seen any negative effects. The only thing I worry about is infecting my plants with contaminants on my scissors, but I take care of that with iso alcohol.
I mean, think about this. You mention the nutrient reserves example, but providing nutrient reserves is why we feed our plants. The plants are surely more efficient at drawing nutrients to the growing parts of the plant through the roots than through the leaves, right?
I say trim some fan leaves in veg if you like, and trim only very selectively and only maybe up to a couple days into flowering. Then leave them alone.
Also remember that the plants must be able to absorb a large part of their energy through the leaves. You must have sufficient "solar panels" on the plants for them to grow as you want them to. Now it's hard to give a hard and fast answer as to "how many leaves per plant can be removed" or something to that effect, because so many other variables are in play. Genetics and overall plant size come to mind.
Try some things out for yourself. You'll learn over time, and it's not a numbers game, you're trying to develop your green thumb here, not your brain. lol
A
axel neek
When we talk of nutrients and nutrient reserves we're talking of potential energy. Energy cannot be destroyed. The nutrients we feed our plants have to be processed, the plant uses energy to turn those nutrients into usable sugars and starches and many other compounds, these compounds are stored in plant tissues, all over the plant.
If you cut anything off the plant and put it in the compost then it's food energy for microbes other organisms.
If it's left on the plant it can be used by the plant
And the plants are not more efficient at drawing nutrients to new growth.
Fully developed leaves have fully developed stomata, water moves through plants like a drop of water in a straw, it's capillary action. As a drop of water evaporates from the stoma it pulls more droplets up through the leaf, stem, trunk, and roots.
Don't assume because the leaf isn't getting optimum light that there aren't critical processes still going on in that plant tissue.
I would feel pretty silly if my thumb was literally green, I think having a green thumb means being informed, or "developed-in-the-brain".
ItsAllOver
Devil's Advocate
Yea, you're absolutely right, especially in regards to the green thumb comment. I think I misrepresented myself in that sense. I agree that gardening is not voodoo and it's all about what you know and how you control variables. But on to more important things.
But in regards to the plant nutrient reserves issue, my point was that the plant is more efficient at drawing nutes to new growth through the roots than it is drawing the same nutes from leaves. I think you misunderstood me there, thinking that I meant plant is more efficient at bringing nutes to new growth than old growth.
I am not trained in the field of horticulture, and in particular, this comment is pure speculation and if you know better let me know... but it just seems to me that one of the critical processes you mentioned that goes on in every part of the plant is regeneration/healing of tissues, no? So I'm saying that as opposed to taking energy to do that for a leaf that is not getting optimal lighting, you remove the leaf, and its store of energy with it (compost it) and replace those nutes with those in your medium. Sure it's a tradeoff, you lose some to the compost, but they are replaced elsewhere, and I have never found it noticable.
I think I caught a drift of something in your post about the energy storage in the leaves being of "usable sugars and starches," which I assume you would say are different than the nutrients available through the roots.
Can you suggest to me some reading to learn more about how plants store and use energy in their leaves? I would like to learn more. I'm going to look around a bit myself.
But in regards to the plant nutrient reserves issue, my point was that the plant is more efficient at drawing nutes to new growth through the roots than it is drawing the same nutes from leaves. I think you misunderstood me there, thinking that I meant plant is more efficient at bringing nutes to new growth than old growth.
I am not trained in the field of horticulture, and in particular, this comment is pure speculation and if you know better let me know... but it just seems to me that one of the critical processes you mentioned that goes on in every part of the plant is regeneration/healing of tissues, no? So I'm saying that as opposed to taking energy to do that for a leaf that is not getting optimal lighting, you remove the leaf, and its store of energy with it (compost it) and replace those nutes with those in your medium. Sure it's a tradeoff, you lose some to the compost, but they are replaced elsewhere, and I have never found it noticable.
I think I caught a drift of something in your post about the energy storage in the leaves being of "usable sugars and starches," which I assume you would say are different than the nutrients available through the roots.
Can you suggest to me some reading to learn more about how plants store and use energy in their leaves? I would like to learn more. I'm going to look around a bit myself.
ItsAllOver
Devil's Advocate
Plant Carbohydrate and Nutrient Movement 101?
Plant Carbohydrate and Nutrient Movement 101?
Notes of an Anatomy Class @ Ohio State.
Slideshow focusing on xylem and phloem and the functions/restrictions of each.
More on phloem, this one's key.
To nutshell my conclusion from those sources and others, I'd say there are a couple things cleared up in my head now.
Xylem transports up only, by transpirational pull and root pressure. Transports mostly water, but this is where the initial uptake of mineral nutrients comes from, and provides the structural integrity of the plant by mature/dead tissue cells that make up its "tubes."
Phloem translocates carbohydrates, amino acids, and organic molecules throughout the plant. This is an active process, as compared to the movement of water in xylem, and is able to take place fairly easily from one area to another of some proximity.
This is where things get interesting. Within the realm of phloem, different parts of the living, growing plant are considered to be either sinks of sources of carbohydrates in the process of translocation.
Here's an interesting quote, "
Proximity of the source and sink is an important regulating factor. The uppermost functional leaves on a stem provide the carbohydrates for the growing shoot tip. More basal (close to the base) source leaves provide sugars for more basal organs like the roots.
The Developmental Stage of an organ can regulate its strength. Young stem tips are strong Sinks. Quiescent stem tips are not strong sinks. Young Fruits are Strong Sinks while mature fruits are not. Young leaves are strong Sinks while mature leaves are strong Sources. Senescent (growing old, aging) leaves are no longer strong carbohydrate sources. Dicot Leaves start to become sources when they have reached 25% of their final size. The tips are the first region to export carbohydrates. Eventually, the entire leaf is involved in carbohydrate export...."
There's also a chart on that page that shows the composition and pH of sap captured from xylem and phloem. Now of course we're not talking about cannabis here, but I thought interesting nonetheless.
I'm still throwing in with the "chop dying leaves" crowd.
Dying leaves are going to be poor sources for plant food as compared to roots (xylem transport) and the other secondary translocation done by major sources. I think that dying leaves could possibly be drains on the plants more strong sources in an attempt to heal the damage. In addition, they are shielding light, no matter how little they might be. I'm also very gung-ho about keeping dead plant material out of the room, so it gets cut off early.
I cut when there's half the leaf left... ish.
Now upon second reading, I think that your post is geared more towards not removing fan leaves for shading purposes only, not considering the health of the leaf.
So maybe this was all pointless, but I learned a lot! lol
Let me know if you catch anything in my deductions that doesn't make sense!
Peace
Plant Carbohydrate and Nutrient Movement 101?
Notes of an Anatomy Class @ Ohio State.
Slideshow focusing on xylem and phloem and the functions/restrictions of each.
More on phloem, this one's key.
To nutshell my conclusion from those sources and others, I'd say there are a couple things cleared up in my head now.
Xylem transports up only, by transpirational pull and root pressure. Transports mostly water, but this is where the initial uptake of mineral nutrients comes from, and provides the structural integrity of the plant by mature/dead tissue cells that make up its "tubes."
Phloem translocates carbohydrates, amino acids, and organic molecules throughout the plant. This is an active process, as compared to the movement of water in xylem, and is able to take place fairly easily from one area to another of some proximity.
This is where things get interesting. Within the realm of phloem, different parts of the living, growing plant are considered to be either sinks of sources of carbohydrates in the process of translocation.
Here's an interesting quote, "
Proximity of the source and sink is an important regulating factor. The uppermost functional leaves on a stem provide the carbohydrates for the growing shoot tip. More basal (close to the base) source leaves provide sugars for more basal organs like the roots.
The Developmental Stage of an organ can regulate its strength. Young stem tips are strong Sinks. Quiescent stem tips are not strong sinks. Young Fruits are Strong Sinks while mature fruits are not. Young leaves are strong Sinks while mature leaves are strong Sources. Senescent (growing old, aging) leaves are no longer strong carbohydrate sources. Dicot Leaves start to become sources when they have reached 25% of their final size. The tips are the first region to export carbohydrates. Eventually, the entire leaf is involved in carbohydrate export...."
There's also a chart on that page that shows the composition and pH of sap captured from xylem and phloem. Now of course we're not talking about cannabis here, but I thought interesting nonetheless.
I'm still throwing in with the "chop dying leaves" crowd.
Dying leaves are going to be poor sources for plant food as compared to roots (xylem transport) and the other secondary translocation done by major sources. I think that dying leaves could possibly be drains on the plants more strong sources in an attempt to heal the damage. In addition, they are shielding light, no matter how little they might be. I'm also very gung-ho about keeping dead plant material out of the room, so it gets cut off early.
I cut when there's half the leaf left... ish.
Now upon second reading, I think that your post is geared more towards not removing fan leaves for shading purposes only, not considering the health of the leaf.
So maybe this was all pointless, but I learned a lot! lol
Let me know if you catch anything in my deductions that doesn't make sense!
Peace
