Uniformity of F1 hybrids and other questions...

[VerdantGreen]

Hi all, i asked this question in another thread but it was somewhat off-topic.

Coming as i do from a more 'general' horticulture background, my experience of F1 hybrids is that they are very uniform, whearas i have seen comments about cannabis that imply that this is not the case...

so, for cannabis, generally speaking...
am i right in thinking that a F1 hybrid between 2 IBL's will give much more uniform/stable/predictable offspring than a F1 hybrid between 2 other hybrids ?

and what about an F1 between an IBL and a hybrid? - would this pass on certain traits (from the IBL) that were uniform accross the offspring and some that were variable (inherited from the hybrid).

to put this into context, i want to do some amateur breeding but my space is very limited - and i am trying to work out ways in which i can remove some variables from the process and perhaps be more successful with smaller plant numbers. (maximum flowering plants would be 16 in 3 litre pots, at present i flower 4 at a time as mod. scrog)

if i can only work with one male - again due to space considerations and thus limitations in progeny testing - would it be advisable to have and IBL male or would it be better to pick what i think is a good male whether it is a multi hybrid or IBL?

i understand that the best advice might be 'dont bother' but i will be doing this so any help or advice you may give me (other than 'dont bother' ) will be much appreciated.

thanks,

V.

 

[Guest]

Hello VG, how are you?

There are other members much more qualified to answer the genetc traits questions, but would like to give my broad scope opinions. It would be a good thing to start out by saying, breeding is a personal journey. Furthermore breeding within this hobby and community has a way of loosely using terms, which is perfectly fine. Words and names are just a reference so others can understand and follow.

The definition for an F1 imo is a combination two true breeding plants that are homozygous as either YY or yy (dominant or recessive). In this hobby it is common to find seeds labeled F1 which exibit this definition of an F1. Additionally, in this hobby it is also common to find seeds labeled F1 which do not exibit this definition. The point of all this is the proof is in the pudding.

For example, assume there is a bag of 50 true breeding seeds labeled "A". Now think if these seeds were send across the globe each being renamed "B", "C", "D", and so on. The end product will always be the same, but each person will have a different name for reference. What does this mean? Did they all recieve different seeds? Of course not, they just call and refer to them differently. What does this tell us? Nothing really, other than the proof is in the pudding.

This may not be as cut and dry of an answer that you are searching for, but this way of thinking helps my brain understand and categorize what breeding is. Again, it is very personal and based on selection. There is no one right or wrong answer. Breeding is about experiencing, selecting and testing. The reason higher numbers are prefered is so that less goes unlooked. Think how statistics work. This is where it gets tricky, how many is enough? I do not think there is an adequate answer. The best answer imo is to do the best with what is available to you. If you are a breeder searching for a specific trait "P", how do you know the specimen chosen out of 100 is the best representation? Out of 1000? 100000?

All breeders are seedmakers, and all seedmakers are breeders BUT the proof is in the pudding. The vocabulary has a way of clouding the topic at hand.

I say go for it! You mention testing prognency, and that is one of the most important aspects of breeding reguardless of vocabluary. IMO you are already ahead of the seed pack *pun intended*. Everyone is entitled to their own preferences on how to continue their seedstocks, so my opinions and preferences are just that: opinions and preferences. So long as you test the prognency and keep genetic backups imo it is all gravy. Starting with just one male can eventually be the cornerstone for a lifelong journey of millions of males tested if that is the breeders goal. Just remember, the proof is in the pudding.

 

[DocLeaf]

True hybrids usually display variation in lineage:

For example with Haze x Skunk :

Sh 25%
SH 25%
HS 25%
Hs 25%

The 25% on either side are skunk dom. (sH) and haze dom. (Hs),, displaying short flowering and long flowering type plants

The 50% (SH and HS) in the middle are the typical hybrids. These show a combination of the short flowering Skunk and long flowering Haze.

Hope this helps

 

[DocLeaf]

Here's another example...

GDS Bubble Dust [Growdoc] = Bubblegum x Angel Dust

In the original line ,, over x100 seed lots (x50 females) then the following patterns were typically displayed:

25% (BD Alpha) ,, Angel Dust influence ,, short indica profile,, lower yield,, 50 - 60 days

50% (BD Betty) ,, Bubble Dust ,, pirate's wrist profile,, fat yield,, 60 - 70 days

25 % (BD Medusa),, Bubblegum influence ,, taller Thai profile ,, good yield,, 70 - 80 days


We'd expect this ratio from most hybrids,,

- - -

Since then when,, Growdoc has been working his Bubble Dust line towards the 50% ,, to truly make GDS Bubble Dust its own cultigen

Try that,,

Hope this helps

N.B. the GDS BD variations Alpha, Betty, Medusa were 1st noted by packn2puff (BD fanatic)

 

[VerdantGreen]

thanks for the good advice MSG - that makes sense

and doc thanks for the examples.

what i dont get is that F1 veg are all identical - is this because the 2 ibl's that made the hybrid are ultra uniform??

 

[Guest]

Yes, great examples doc!

VG, happy to see my ramblings went to some use. As for F1 veg (vegetable?) seeds having ultra uniformity, mostly this is attributed to a legal marketplace in which they are produced and sold/traded. Unfortunately cannabis is not afforded this luxury and has many grey areas, the cloudy areas I refer to previously. There are true to form F1 cannabis seeds out there, but in proportion to how vegetable seeds are uniform I understand where you are comming from.

I find it very inspiring your attitude toward this subject. Keep in mind achieving a uniform seed is not the difficult part, but achieving a uniform seed that exibits the all of the traits you desire and none of the traits you do not care for is the pudding.

 

[DocLeaf]

The leaf profile is often most disguisable in veg. ,, (in macro) as is the individual scent (rub the stems),, but its mostly through practise over and over again... when working with one strain for a while,, in numbers,, that yo soon learn to recognise the differences between siblings in the same batch,, in characteristics,,, like (hybrid)-vigor,, size,, n phyllotaxy.

,, otherwise pick healthy plants every-time when breeding. Healthy plants usually make healthy seeds

 

[cork144]

if 2 very opposite true breeding plants cross, the offspring should have unifomity and hybrid vigor

example, landrace indica x landrace sativa

 

[DocLeaf]

Please do explain how you conclude that.. "if 2 very opposite true breeding plants cross, the offspring should have unifomity and hybrid vigor" from

That sort of grows against genetics,, please check the terms/words heterogeneous and homogeneous... and then get back to us

peace n love

 

[Guest]

Doc, I can not speak for cork but I view uniformity differently when relating to different combinations of genes. Imo uniformity can be both in singular fashion, as well as singular group. In the singular fashion this corresponds to each seed representing an identical phenotype, backcrossing to a bottlenecked phenotype for example. The singular group fashion corresponds to a F1 seed that will uniformly exibits the 25/25/25/25 proportions you mentioned eailer. Both uniform in their own rights, one as a group and one singular. This helps for me to relate these terms and still grasp the concept behind the curtian.

Will a true F1 grow with the uniformity of a true breed IBL, obviously not. It will show uniformity in its own way by equal representation of parents, so long as they were of true breed to start.

I can admit my understanding on these subjects are limited, so please correct me if there is something within my concepts that are off base. Thank you.

 

[cork144]

because the domment and recessive genes inside of the plants used for the cross will take in effect, so the seeds produced should be uniform to the dominant genes completely, not to say there will be other variations.

if lots of plants are used from each landrace, then there would be alot of variation in the progency, but im sure alot of f1 seeds just have a single mother and father plant

 

[kopite]

Please do explain how you conclude that.. "if 2 very opposite true breeding plants cross, the offspring should have unifomity and hybrid vigor" from

That sort of grows against genetics,, please check the terms/words heterogeneous and homogeneous... and then get back to us

well we could talk about, heterosis to dominance and overdominance...

was it not Mendal who found the 2 homozygous parents, that the resulting F1 generation would be heterozygous and all [phenotypically resemble the dominant parent plant.....

I find vics look at simplified terms useful

1) PUREBREEDING - Uniform growth AND True breeding. These can include:
- IBLs
- Landraces

2) UNIFORM HYBRIDS - Uniform Growth But Unstable breeding. These can include:
- F1 hybrids
- Cubed seedlines - Bx3 or greater

3) VARIABLE HYBRIDS - Variable Growth AND Unstable breeding. This catagory basically catches everything that doesn't fit into the two top catagories and can include:
- F2, F3, etc
- Backcrosses like Bx1, Bx2
- casual 3 way and 4 way crosses
- hybrids of hybrids

 

[DocLeaf]

Many a mickle makes a muckle ,, as they say

 

[indifferent]

if 2 very opposite true breeding plants cross, the offspring should have unifomity and hybrid vigor

example, landrace indica x landrace sativa

There will only be uniformity if the two parental lines are true breeding.
I agree that the greatest hybrid vigour is found in F1 crosses where the parents are completely unrelated and differ from each other a great deal.

The ideal situation for an F1 hybrid is two true breeding parental lines, if this is the case, A x B will usually give this outcome, phenotypically:

Pheno 1 - A dominant, expresses mostly traits from parent A
Pheno 2 - B dominant, expresses mostly traits from parent B
Pheno 3 - Co-dominant, expresses traits from both parents

The split, percentage wise is generally 25/25/50.

More often, recessive traits from either parent will crop up, giving a outcome more like this:

Pheno 1 - A dominant, expresses mostly traits from parent A
Pheno 2 - B dominant, expresses mostly traits from parent B
Pheno 3 - Co-dominant, expresses traits from both parents
Pheno 4 - Expresses recessive trait(s) from parent A
Pheno 5 - Expresses recessive trait(s) from parent B

That's all a gross over-simplification, but you get the picture.