being forced to coco..not such a bad thing

[spreadhead]

to preface i have been reading all i can here at icmag about coco over the past 7 days. i hate to ask questions that have previously been asked but in this coco part of the icmag forums i have seen folks with lots of experience providing advice and hope that they will indulge me.
i grow in a cab under a 150hps. been growing for 7 years. started in soil..quickly moved to a homemade dwc. when i have found a strain that i like i stick with it. right now it is dreamgoddess from mod. i have been growing it for over two years. last year about this time i lost everything to the "slime" that entered my grow fro too high h2o temps. i had 3 plants that survived. i was unable to get clones. i flowered them and then re-vegged. never revegged before and had great success. i finally was able to get 6 clones. they are in 3in net pots. i am strugging with the temps and altthough the clones are growing the roots are not. i have seen this before and i thought my only option was soil until i started reading about coco. i have to get them in a growing medium now so here are my questions"
1. the local hydro shop only has botanicare coco that loose. i have read a lot about canna but will botanicare be ok.
2. Is there anything special that i should do in the preparation of botanicare coco? i have read lots that folks rinse with ro water...but also there are folks who do not rinse.
3. my cab temps run about 80.so did the water. i am very comfortable in soil and coco seems very similar. should i worry about any root problems if 80 is my temp?
4. Can I treat like soil?
5. Do folks use h2o2 with their water?
6. I have had good success with Earth Ambrosia and Earth Nectar both in water and soil. There should be no problem in coco correct?
7. hygrozyme...i have this great big bottle that i have never used. i bought to fight slime but before use i read it could causes slime. What would it do for me?
8. i was planning to move all of my clones into coco. I am sure that my clones will be sub-par plants if i do not do something...i have seen this before.
9. Is coco known for catching any ickys? slime fungus anything?
Anything you can tell me would be great?

 

[medi-useA]

coco is great for heat management because of the insulation value...You do sometimes get gnats in the coco coir...I find that an inch or so of prelite on top will keep the gnats at bay{ or diotomacious earth}...as to rinsing it...check the ph of runoff water...that will tell you if the coir needs to be rinsed...5.2-5.4 should give the best range...opinions may vary though...you should be aiming for 10% runoff when watering coir to stop salts building up....and flush every week or two with ph'ed water...
coir can also be mixed with perlite to aid in drainage....
That's the limit of My experience with coir...hope it helps somewhat...
muA

 

[spreadhead]

that is a great start.

 

[magiccannabus]

Are you going to try organic? If so the approach is quite different. In an organic coco grow, you can treat it just like soil, except you can water whenever you feel like it and never drown them. In a chemical coco grow, you treat it more like a hydroponic medium. Both approaches have their advocates, and either approach will yield you great cannabis. Personally I am using organic, and I would not call myself an expert on chem grows in coco. I'd recommend you hear both sides of the argument and decide for yourself.

 

[spreadhead]

thanks magicc...i slipped away from work and drove th 90 mile round trip to my nearest hydro store. hydro store guy said i did not need to rinse...i guess i will determine that move in just a minuet.
i have seen others use hygrozyme would you recommend using it?

 

[magiccannabus]

Sorry I am not familiar with the product, but I have read that some people use pond enzymes in place of it. Might be worth a search of the forums...

 

[medi-useA]

I have used a product called 'nitrozyme' with coir...almost ANY seaweed based product has worked well with coir for me in the past...
Though I mostly go the chem ferts route and have yet to try the fully organic way...
My first really successful grow was in straight coco-coir with a timer that fed the plants a few mins every hour...and it was BIG. I was growing under 2 X 400W HPS in a 60cmX120cmX170cm cab, and each time the lights came on I had snowcaps all over the canopy that had yet to develop chlorafil {spelling; I know!}...damn near albino buds....but come halfway through the lights-on period they had darkened up ...and this was during summers where the temps reached over 43C outside...and the grow cab was regularly reaching 35C....but with a big enough rootball surrounded by coir they held their own despite the heat...as long as the airflow kept up...
The only thing I have heard of that helps with heat issues apart from coir is big tokes bio-buckets....and coir is a lot more forgiving...

muA

edit: on the rinsing front....some coir sold in hydro shops are pre-rinsed and ph stablised....coir sold in hardware/garden stores is usually NOT rinsed OR ph balanced...and this is where probs may arise if you fail to note if your coir has been rinsed or ph balanced....your best bet if you have untreated coir is to rinse it a LOT and check the ph of the runoff...once you have it at your desired range { I would aim for 5.2-5.4 ph} let it dry for a few days to a week and then water it once more with ph stabilised water with a seaweed tonic of some sort in it...let it dry again for a few days and it is then ready to plant in..buffered to the right ph with a small amount of seaweed tonic in it to help the plants deal with their first few days in the medium....


muA

EDIT II: When using blackstrap molasses with coir you ALWAYS run the risk of ants or other sweettoothed critters....the secret is small amounts of molasses...and some type of mulch, be it gravel, perlite, hydroton or cardboard....

muA

 

[robotwithdreams]

my hydro guy told me the same. got home and checked the runoff and found it at 1200ppm!!!! Rinsed with tap water to get runoff to match tap ppm at 160. Then water the coco with R.O. water + the nutes at about 350-400ppm. Next transplant and water with the nute solution.

Hygrozyme is highly recommended. Use far less than what the label suggests,like 1-2ml per gallon every watering, till mid flower.

Also look into aquashield, formerly known as hydro guard.

Welcome to coco, do it right and you will not look back.

 

[spreadhead]

thanks med and rwd...i am in coco 100%. transplanted last light..first thing i noticed was the absence of cords and aerators..less cumbersome..rinsed with distilled h2o and once transplanted watered with an nutes. then today i watered with distilled with 5ml hygrozyme.
got any watering techniques that you use. could i water with nutes...next water with hygrozyme...next water with earth ambrosia and earth nectar, http://www.4hydroponics.com/nutrients/earth-mycorrhizae.asp
then water with plain water then back to water with nutes...
i was thinking of dedicating a day to each type of water i was watering with..is this a good way?

 

[medi-useA]

I have no idea, mate...when I grew pure coco-coir I used canna A&B nutes with pk+....had a timer that watered a few sec/mins every few hrs...almost zero runoff when dialed in...however when I next run a full coco grow I am going to set up a res with a wick to the bottom of the coir pot...aerate the res and flush once every 2-3 weeks...

If you water different additives on different days you run the risk of possible alternately overferting and starving the plant if the salts build up...I would consider using additives/nutes for 2 waterings and the third pure water with some blackstrap molasses...keep checking the ph and ec of runoff...keep it within the magic range and all should go well...keep some pump packs handy and use foliar feeding to quickly combat any deficiencies you see...
epsom salts are useful when the leaves go light coloured with dark veins....seaweed based products are also good foliar feeds...do not spray just before lights out...do not spray when in flower...do not spray near HPS or MH bulbs or when the fan is on..{bulbs go 'BANG' when water hits them whilst they're on....}.

good growing
muA

 

[axel neek]

1. I haven't personally used botanicare coco, I cant say how good it is. But I can say that I have used a lot of different brands of coir. Even pet store coir made for use in terrariums. I find quality differences seem to come from different batches, as opposed to different brands. Meaning out of twenty bricks from one company one may seem to be made up of bottoms or ends or just lower quality stuff.

2. Again I cannot speak to the quality of botanicare coir or if rinsing is required. Because it is marketed as a growing medium, I would think and hope that it is ready to use. However if you ever feel rinsing is required; I use two buckets, a 5 gallon and a 3 gallon. The 3 gal has many 1/4" holes drilled on the bottom, and can fit into the 5gal. I throw a compressed brick into the 5gal and fill 3/4 with water. Let that sit and expand for awhile. Maybe half hour to an hour. Come back, agitate it with my hands for a couple minutes then pour into the 3 gal bucket and let drain. I then run tap water through the 3 gal, I let it fill, then drain, fill then drain. I then place the 3 gal in the 5 and soak the coir for another 30 - 60 minutes. Come back agitate, and again double rinse. Usually by now it's good to use. I only ever use tap water, never RO or distilled, but my tap water is decent.
Also pay attention when you're rinsing the coir, if you're using the tap and have the water coming out at a good rate you may notice a froth or bubbles forming on top of the water, I believe these are salts, or something I don't want. I manually remove this with my hand when rinsing. Rinsing is usually complete when the coir doesn't create that froth or bubbles.
Once all that's complete I charge the the CEC (cation exchange capacity). I mix a weak nutrient solution, mainly calmag (10ml/gal) with 1/4 - 1/2 strength of any npk solution. the npk is more for balancing, so your solution isn't only calmag which can upset the CEC in the opposite way.

3. You need not worry of root problems with 80* water.

4. "Can I treat like soil?" You certainly can. But there are more benefits to treating it like coir.

5. Some may use h2o2, maybe more for treating problems, but it's not needed for anything that the plant needs directly.


6. I haven't used earth ambrosia or earth nectar. Are they similar to Sweet or other molassis based products? If so, there is no problem with them in coir.

7. hygrozyme...another product I have no first hand knowledge of.

8. You didn't ask a question, but I second your plan to move your clones to coir.

9. Coco is notorious for fungus gnats. But Bt (bacillus thuringiensis) products can combat the larvae.

 

[spreadhead]

Thanks again med.
I appreciate the answers axel.
I have my clones in coco after a thorough rinse.
Axel, i am reading everything i can to treat coco like coco and not soil but could you elaborate?
BTW..all looks good...Would you add a top layer of maybe perlite to help control fungus gnats?

 

[Apollo11]

Thanks again med.
I appreciate the answers axel.
I have my clones in coco after a thorough rinse.
Axel, i am reading everything i can to treat coco like coco and not soil but could you elaborate?
BTW..all looks good...Would you add a top layer of maybe perlite to help control fungus gnats?

Coco is essentially hydro, so you must treat it as such (PH/PPM).

Fungas gnats can be contained with mosquito dunks applied to your rez.

 

[medi-useA]

perlite or diotomacious earth or even a 2" layer of hydroton will help with gnats....yellow sticky traps are also good to keep gnats under control...as are beneficial insect predators....even an ultraviolet bug zapper helps out!...

muA

 

[axel neek]

I've heard of adding a top layer of perlite to prevent fungus gnats, I hear it works but I haven't ever tried it myself. I have a Bt product that I use, the product looks like small waffers, or like the chili seeds you see in an italian restaurant. I just sprinkle some in the pot and I don't have to worry.

As for coco vs soil, I say you can treat coco like soil because you can water then wait till it's almost dry again before you water. However this isn't taking full advantage of the coir. Coir and soil are drastically different under a microscope. In comparison, coir fibers are much larger than the particles you find in soil. Those small particles in soil create a lot of surface tension and really "water log" the media, and you have to wait for the soil to dry again which allows air back to the root zone.
Coir however, is a much larger particle, this creates bigger gaps between all the 'particles' in the pot. Gravity overcomes the surface tension of the water because the gaps are too large, extra water proceeds out the drainage holes. The media has proper aeration mere moments after watering. You need not wait for the media to dry again before watering, infact, it's more beneficial to have a constant supply of air, water, and nutrients. Which coco provides home to.
Coir is known for having good water holding properties but I just said it allows for excellent drainage, let me explain. Individually, each 'particle' of coco is very porous, and holds up to 8 times it's own weight in water.
All water is held in each piece of coir, not in between each piece of coir.

 

[dr-dank]

I use botanicare coco-grow. Loose bags. Never rinse, use straight (no perlite), and resuse about 3x.

Great stuff IMO.

Regards

 

[spreadhead]

Thanks again axel...my plants started to look better 24 hours after transplanting. there is new growth and the leaves got a little darker.
i understand the difference between coco and other growing mediums but i do not understand how you can get similar results as growing in water.
here is what i am having a hard time wrapping my head around....maybe i have the wrong set-up...i have the coco in 1 gallon grow bags. if i am running to waste into individual overflow plates,
how is coco differing from soil? yes it has excellent drainage but it holds 8 time its own weight in water?? right now the bags are sitting in the plates..like they would in soil..i am going to let the coir dry somewhat until i water again to help in root development..in a couple weeks i imagine i will water more and catch the overflow. if it is holding all the water should i be watering when the bags are still heavy..from what i have read it seems the answer is yes..but i am a little scared because i do not want to water log the plant if that is even possible...
i am on page 11 of the 47 handwatering thread..i am working on it.
moved plants into the cab under the 150hps..they have been under a couple 150 cfls..temps are around 80...man i am exited about this grow..axel, is the watering regime i speak of above a good combo?
water with nutes
next water with a blend of enzymes, bacteria, humus and mychorrize spores..EA & EN
next water with hygrozyme...this stuff is suppose to be similar to cannazyme.
then back to water with nutes.
i have have owned any meters. i do have a ph testing kit for water..i have been pretty fortunate. i have used lucas formula with distilled water and i have always been happy at harvest..do i need an ec meter to be successful in coco..seems like everyone has one in the coco threads

 

[Leviathan]

your luv the coco, keep it straight, ive used botanicare and didnt rinse beyond hydrating my cocogro block and dumping the runoff which was very dark red brown. ive yet to try to pre treat it with cal mag but i acutally had yellow (first little round leafs on cannabis) that really scared me and made me think i was over my head but it went away in about 4-5 days.. so maybe some kind of pre treating with a light nute solution with cal mag might be a good idea.. make sure your coco doenst dry out and flush it once a week, either organic or chem will do. youll luv it, to bad u had to drive so far, i would of just saved the gas money and orderd it online and paid for it with said funds.

 

[axel neek]

spreadhead - what do you mean by "similar results as growing in water"? I believe that it doesn't matter what medium you're using. Soil, coco, hydro, fogponics, whatever it may be, your results will be the same if you're giving the plant what it needs.
I hope I haven't discouraged or confused you any. Your setup and what your doing is good. You don't have to worry about waterlogging your plants, this is how coco differs from soil. Also you don't have to let the coco dry 'somewhat' to help in root development.
Growing media is responsible for supplying water, nutrients and air to your roots.
In soil, when you water, the soil is saturated 100%, all air is removed, you need to wait until water is used or evaporates and allows air to return to the rootzone
In coir, when you water, the coir is saturated 70 - 80%, there is still air at the root zone, you can water 10 minutes later and the coir still maintains that same ratio of water and air. There is no need to let the coco dry to allow air to return to the rootzone, it's already there.
If the plant is being supplied with water, nutrients and air, then the processes that depend on that water, nutrients and air, are 'processing' or the plant is growing. If you let your coco dry to 20% moisture, then water uptake is going to be reduced, nutrient uptake is also reduced because nutrients are taken up with water. This reduction in water/nutrient uptake will slow the growth of the plant.

The only thing that I would change if I was you is your feeding schedule, it sounds like you're watering with nutes one watering then changing it up the next watering. Your best bet is to feed with a similar solution each watering. If you fed with high npk yesterday, then today you feed with enzymes and additives. You're flushing out the npk you fed with yesterday.
It's better to feed a mild mix of npk + enzymes + additives with each watering, gradually increasing or decreasing based on need. Not to shock the plant with having something available today but not tomorrow.
You don't need the additives each watering, but your micro and macro nutrients for sure.
I would highly suggest investing in a ph pen, they're super handy and it's quite important to have your ph in the proper range.
ph is probably the most important part of growing in coir, coir will work against you if your ph isn't right.
I would say get a ph pen before you get a ec pen, you can calculate your ppm using witchcraft (math) pretty accurately.

 

[axel neek]

Also i do realize in a run to waste system keeping your coco fully saturated is expensive on nutes and water. You need to find what works best for you, a happy balance between cost effectiveness and productiveness.