how to avoid circuit overloads

[isit4.20yet]

If power factor correction was an issue for the indoor home gardener you would see it listed with the amps on the case.

It IS in fact listed in "the amps on the case". Grab your calculator and multiply the amps on the case by the volts on the case. You'll find they calculate to about 12% more Volt-Amps than the Watts listed on the bulb.

If I have to void my warranty by opening the ballast to check for the power factor, on the core itself, I dont need to know it.

The power factor will be the apparent power (volts times amps) divided by the real power (the wattage of the bulb).

Power Factor correction is used in industry where large amounts of power are being used and the losses start to become significant.

Correct, but it causes more current draw (the stuff that makes your wires get hot) than the wattage of the lamp alone, and should be taken into consideration when wiring multiple lamps in a single circuit, especially near capacity.

This reminds me of a company that was selling a cap bank called the "Equalizer" a few years back. Claiming to correct the power factor on your single phase line
when using hid ballasts, it only cost like $500. Saving the average 1 or 2k grow maybe a dollar a month, what a joke.

If the overall power factor of your residence is above .8 or so, the electric company won't charge you for the apparent power so that device will save you nothing. If your overall power factor is lower than that you need to consider correcting it with capacitors.

Your math is correct, but the practical application is off the mark.

It's quite on the mark because he's going to load up a circuit with an inductive load that draws more amps than the watts add up to, and he wanted advice on safety. I'm merely pointing out that the currents are going to be higher than he's calculating. If you read my first post you'd see that I told him to ask an electrician. He'd surely hear the same things I've been saying.

Me, I like electrical peace of mind.

 

[VagPuncher]

So, 2 600's on one 15 amp breaker is al good?

 

[movingtocally]

So, 2 600's on one 15 amp breaker is al good?

Yes.

 

[caljim]

It IS in fact listed in "the amps on the case". Grab your calculator and multiply the amps on the case by the volts on the case. You'll find they calculate to about 12% more Volt-Amps than the Watts listed on the bulb.



The power factor will be the apparent power (volts times amps) divided by the real power (the wattage of the bulb).



Correct, but it causes more current draw (the stuff that makes your wires get hot) than the wattage of the lamp alone, and should be taken into consideration when wiring multiple lamps in a single circuit, especially near capacity.



If the overall power factor of your residence is above .8 or so, the electric company won't charge you for the apparent power so that device will save you nothing. If your overall power factor is lower than that you need to consider correcting it with capacitors.



It's quite on the mark because he's going to load up a circuit with an inductive load that draws more amps than the watts add up to, and he wanted advice on safety. I'm merely pointing out that the currents are going to be higher than he's calculating. If you read my first post you'd see that I told him to ask an electrician. He'd surely hear the same things I've been saying.

Me, I like electrical peace of mind.

You got me to thinking, maybe after all these years I've got it all wrong. Went and checked all my HID ballasts, could not find power factor listed on any of the cases. Called a buddy and had him check too, "just the amps" was his reply. By now I'm on the way to the hydro store to check some other brand name ballasts.

Not one of them lists the power factor on the case.

I wonder why? Let me explain. These devices are UL listed and designed so that your mom can plug it in and not have to sit down, open the case, and be drawn away from her baking to compute the power factor correction she needs to apply.

And just how does the "Power Company" know what my "overall power factor" is? I have not sent them an itemized list of every electrical device in my home. Even with a smart meter the power company just sees a spike in amperage over time.

If you follow the 80% circuit loading rule the needed head room for power factor and voltage fluctuations has been taken into account.

But feel free to build as tough as you want. The NEC is after all just the bare minimum.

 

[movingtocally]

Is it unsafe to run extension cords from one room to another with high wattages? For example, unplugging the stove from its' 30 amp circuit breaker and throwing 3 1000 watters in its' place, wiring through a heavy duty cord into the bedroom?


Thanks.

 

[sirripalot]

You know what, if you want to spread bullshit, do it someplace other than on an electrical thread. Your shit here can get people killed!

PC

are you serious? both of your posts in this thread are nothing but talking shit. i'm not spreading bullshit, i'm being realistic. i ran 2kw on a 20a for a few years with no fires or any safety hazards what so ever. are you calling me lucky or could it be you're not recognizing the marked "safety limits" are pretty strict, and imo are a little bendable.

regardless, i wasn't spreading bullshit, i was sharing my personal experience. it's pretty pathetic you left me negative reputation for such a post.

NOTE: there seems to be some controversy with my comments, for your "safety" please be sure to ignore this, and read on.

 

[FrankRizzo]

are you serious? both of your posts in this thread are nothing but talking shit. i'm not spreading bullshit, i'm being realistic. i ran 2kw on a 20a for a few years with no fires or any safety hazards what so ever. are you calling me lucky or could it be you're not recognizing the marked "safety limits" are pretty strict, and imo are a little bendable.

regardless, i wasn't spreading bullshit, i was sharing my personal experience. it's pretty pathetic you left me negative reputation for such a post.

You have to realize that what might have "worked" for you could burn someone else's house down. Therefor isn't really sound advise to hand out on the internet.

 

[sirripalot]

You have to realize that what might have "worked" for you could burn someone else's house down. Therefor isn't really sound advise to hand out on the internet.

20a wire, is 20a wire, is it not? i would never intentionally hand out bad information.

Amps = Watts/Volts

2000w/120v = 16.666667a

add 15% to your load to be safe, so +300 watts

2300w/120v = 19.166667a

how the hell is a fire going to start when you're not exceeding the maximum capacity of the wire? yea, the wire will get a little warm, but no where near fire temperatures. fires typically start from incorrectly wired connections (IE: SPARK), not overpowering a circuit. what do you think BREAKERS are for?

i am totally for being safe, and trust me..i don't want my house burning down either.

i think sometimes ppl like you scare people out of doing their own electricity, when they're totally capable.

get real.

edit: also, i just want to add that for this guy's situation he should definitely be on 240v anyway, which squashes this debate of it not being safe. but regardless, i stand my ground.

NOTE: there seems to be some controversy with my comments, for your "safety" please be sure to ignore this, and read on.

 

[FrankRizzo]

i am totally for being safe, and trust me..i don't want my house burning down either.

i think sometimes ppl like you scare people out of doing their own electricity, when they're totally capable.

People like me uh? Ok show me where I told him not to do anything. Oh wait, that's right I didn't.

I follow the 80% rule for this reason. There aren't many things out there these days that don't fail when you push them 100%. Period. Now if you think it's realistic to run wiring at 100% capacity, you're gonna do what you're gonna do. I think that is asking for trouble and people that feel it's a safe thing to do are idiots. Is that going change your opinion, doubt it. Do I care? Only in the sense that I hope someone that reads your piss poor advise doesn't go and hurt themselves/others.

 

[cocktail frank]

ftr, a 1k draws 9 amps at 120v
so 2k is 18amps.

higher than you would want to let yourself go imo.
remember, a chain is only as strong as its weakest link.
warm wires occur when circuits are overloaded.
breakers work off heat aswell, not draw.
maybe your 2k off the 1 20a breaker was w/in a few feet of your panel.
less chance of any real damage happening if its that close.
don't know your situation or how your setup is.
but i'll agree w/ others here, piss poor advice.

remember kids.............
@ 20amp 120v = 1k
@ 20amp 240v = 3k

 

[sirripalot]

People like me uh? Ok show me where I told him not to do anything. Oh wait, that's right I didn't.

I follow the 80% rule for this reason. There aren't many things out there these days that don't fail when you push them 100%. Period. Now if you think it's realistic to run wiring at 100% capacity, you're gonna do what you're gonna do. I think that is asking for trouble and people that feel it's a safe thing to do are idiots. Is that going change your opinion, doubt it. Do I care? Only in the sense that I hope someone that reads your piss poor advise doesn't go and hurt themselves/others.

sorry, i did not mean "people like you" necessarily in an offensive way. throwing the words fire and house into the same sentence is going to scare any sane person.

obviously the less current you run through a wire, the safer it is.

you have no argument from me if you say "to be on the safe side", but any asshole in here who says your house is going to burn down running 2000w on a 20a breaker is the jackass, not me.

you guys probably freak out when there are more than 6 people on an elevator too, right?

NOTE: there seems to be some controversy with my comments, for your "safety" please be sure to ignore this, and read on.

 

[sirripalot]

Alright...

I'll admit my ignorance of the 80% rule, and I apologise for any NEWBs that have come and read my comments and were misinformed.

I 100% disagree with the comments saying you're house is going to burn down, but I will concede my argument.

You guys are probably right about idiots coming and listening to my advice. I gave the advice from my personal experience and failed to warn members that it "could" be dangerous. Although i must say that in MY situation it simply is not.

Either way, i'll be sure to mention the 80% "paranoia-rule", as I'll call it, in the future.

It's just VERY hard to listen to somebody tell me what i've been doing for years and years is going to burn your house down..lol, it's nonsense.

I guess if i were sky-diving i'd rather have a shoot with a weight limit of a couple extra pounds heavier than me, just to be safe.

The last thing i want is for someone to get hurt, so i'm putting my personal feelings/opinion of the matter to the side.

 

[Lazyman]

Don't try to run a long extension cord from your range socket, just have a subpanel installed in your garage or whatever and tell the electrician you need 100A 240 in there so you can run your welder, tubing bender and air compressor at the same time. He'll even put in your 30-50A 240 outlets and some 120V ones hanging off of it for ya. Only a DIY job if you've read a ton of books on the subject or spent a couple years palling around with a sparky on wiring jobs, otherwise call a pro. Remember, if a firefighter spts your grow he'll call the cops to sort it out, 9 times out of ten!

 

[jyme]

SOME ONE SET ME STRAIT. what i have in mind is four 400watt hps in my flowering room im wanting to run them on 110. ive got an electrition that is gunna look at it after in done to ensure its safty. i dont know much about 110 and 240 i do know the plug looks differnt on my stove lol.what i had in mind is running three difernt 14-2 wires off of 30amp breakers is this easyer. or is there a better way? one for my flowering room and one for my vegging rooom and the other one for air and fans and pumps and what ever else i may come up with.

 

[seeyouaunty]

You got me to thinking, maybe after all these years I've got it all wrong. Went and checked all my HID ballasts, could not find power factor listed on any of the cases. Called a buddy and had him check too, "just the amps" was his reply. By now I'm on the way to the hydro store to check some other brand name ballasts.

Not one of them lists the power factor on the case.

The point of knowing the p.f. is to work out the amps used. If the amps are directly listed then that is all you need to know.

For magnetic ballasts the amps will always be higher than watts/voltage which is important to realise when working out circuit loading.

Electronic ballasts however have a p.f. of 1 (or close enough), so amps can be assumed to be watts/voltage. It is def worth knowing that the electronic ballasts can use noticably less amps for a given wattage.

If you follow the 80% circuit loading rule the needed head room for power factor and voltage fluctuations has been taken into account.

The power factor could easily eat away all of the remaining 20% headroom.

The correct way is to work out the circuit loading using the amps written on the ballast, and then have the 80% circuit loading on top of that.