War breaks out within the marijuana legalization movement

[kmk420kali]

Some of you guys with your rhetoric about only greedy ppl not liking this...and how it will be so cheap if legalized...do you honestly think that the Gov...or any of the big corps are going to take a product that is proven to sell just fine at these high prices...and LOWER it??

I would really like to see some of the replies I know I am going to get...but alas...I am leaving right now, for about a week of trimming--
Tootles--

 

[StarGatherer]

Boy you guys sure dance around the issue alot.Ive read all these posts and it looks as if the Oaksterdam crew wants to lock in all the licensing and rake in the profits.Just man up and say it.YOU WANT IT ALL TO YOURSELVES!!!. The rights, patents, and any politician you can buy.Shame on you guys.Your gonna ruin it for everyone because you have to have a new Hummer and a showy house.I just want to grow and smoke it and share it.These are concepts you Oaksters cant wrap your head around can you.Share it.Yes I said it.I do well enough without selling weed for a living as Im sure alot of folks are.Only thru true legalization can we prevent the over inflated prices and stigmas attached to it.There will always be shitweed and kind that will never change.Yes, there will always be a market for the good herb and those that really excel will make a name for themselves.But to try and manipulate the system to only favor one producer will only end up with filthy rich fatcats putting out a mediocre product in the end.I am appreciative for all the effort that Peron and Herer have put into this crusade and feel that the spirit of what they have accomplished is lost on The Oaksters.The wine model is the only one that fits and works for all.Shame on anyone who tries to reserve rights just for themselves.Business should be taxed yes.Exchanging of funds taxed.But homegrowing and personal use should be free to whomever wants to attempt it.I dont believe that someone who has 50 acres of weed is growing it for personal consumption either and should be looked at as an industry.Please dont apply the same laws to the guy growing 3 or 4 plants to the guy growing acres.Where there is large sums of money being made there will always be taxes.

 

[p1ninja]

children...

we are all on the same side.

 

[PharmaCan]

Some of you guys with your rhetoric about only greedy ppl not liking this...and how it will be so cheap if legalized...do you honestly think that the Gov...or any of the big corps are going to take a product that is proven to sell just fine at these high prices...and LOWER it??

I would really like to see some of the replies I know I am going to get...but alas...I am leaving right now, for about a week of trimming--
Tootles--

Very true! There might be some slight downward movement on prices, but damn little. The idea of $20 ounces is nothing more than a pipedream.

PC

 

[karmical]

we are all on the same side.

yes we really all are.

I thank all of you for this exchange of ideas, and look forward in expressing things I have read here this weekend, back in the trenches.

I like the fact that outside now every place that I go has signature takers on both usually they're side by side.

I've have input, but have a few questions I have to ask before about a few concearns I have read that I'll get answered, then it's on...

 

[Pistil_Party09]

so why dont you go talk it out with mr.lee then? maybe everyone should have worked together to form one bill that works for everyone.

 

[Koroz]

so why dont you go talk it out with mr.lee then? maybe everyone should have worked together to form one bill that works for everyone.

Someone needs to research their history of the two initiatives before asking these questions with the undertones of snottiness.

They tried. He either fired them, or wouldn't listen to input. The whole CCI group was originally lawyers who worked for Richard, but when they found out what he was doing they quit. He wouldn't listen to their legal advice which was what they were hired for in the first place. They tried warning him about what he was doing and the legal problems that would arise after, they tried to get him to listen but the sound of money going cha-ching was too much for him to ignore.

We posted for a good month strait on his boards with no responses, no one listened and none of our advice was taken in. This man has one sole objective and that was to get rich regardless of who he hurts in the meantime. Its evident by the way he has fired those who worked with him and expressed concern over the fact he wants to tax medicinal users, or fired those who told him his initiative would jail more people then the current laws we have now in unfriendly counties.

The reason there are two initiatives now is his own doing. Had he actually took the advice of people and listened to the problems that were going to arise we wouldn't be in the situation we are in now, but he doesn't care about that. He cares about his monthly income.

 

[fatigues]

Where would we be if we made a deal with the British?

Gee. Living in a country in North America with a governmental system that never fought a war of independence against the English Crown? Not sure if I can recall there was ever a country that did that...

Oh yes! Now I remember. The Land of the Enslaved, Downtrodden and the Oppressed: Canada.

(In other words - not very different than it is right now.)

 

[fatigues]

Business should be taxed yes.Exchanging of funds taxed.But homegrowing and personal use should be free to whomever wants to attempt it.I dont believe that someone who has 50 acres of weed is growing it for personal consumption either and should be looked at as an industry.Please dont apply the same laws to the guy growing 3 or 4 plants to the guy growing acres.Where there is large sums of money being made there will always be taxes.

There seems to be a lot of disinformation here.

Under the Tax Cannabis 2010 proposal (the so-called Oaksterdam or "Lee initiative"), there is no tax applied to home growers. There is no fixed tax applied to MJ that is sold in stores either, but it does empower government to set those taxes. If the local gov't does not permit the sale, there will be no tax. It's set up as the carrot to dangle in front of local gov't so as to permit the sale of MJ. No different than what happened in 1933 when Alcohol Prohibition was repealed by the Twenty-First Amendment and left to the control of state and local governments, I might add.

Under the CCI, the Legislature is required to create a scheme for the sale of marijuana and tax by November 2011. Under CCI, there is a MINIMUM $50 per ounce tax that must be initially applied to the sale of marijuana by the Legislature.

So: under both plans there are taxes. Under Tax Can 2010, it's a flexible tax with no floor and no ceiling. Under CCI, it's a flexible tax with no ceiling - but it does have a minimum floor tax of $50 an ounce.

Either both plans, there are no taxes or fees which are permitted to be levied against home growers for personal use.

Under Tax Can 2010, there is a minimum of 5x5 personal grow space to be allowed for the growing of cannabis, allotted on a per home or per rented parcel of land. There is no license fee that can be charged for this privilege and there is no tax that can be applied to it. Despite the statements in this thread, there is no height limit set upon such a growing plot.

Note: the right that is granted under Tax Can 2010 is tied to the home or parcel of rented land, not to the # of person(s) owning or renting it. It's a per piece of land growing right. Consider the legality of renting multiple 5x5 plots of land and asserting your constitutional right to grow on each and every one of the multiple plots of land you lease...

Ahaaaah! Exactly. That would appear to be entirely legal under Tax Can 2010.

Under CCI, there is no max grow space or plant limit. That does not, however, relieve a person from the application of municipal zoning laws that prevent commercial agriculture from being conducted from land that is not zoned for agricultural use. So the reality is, under both, there will be some limit.

It also means that under CCI, the laws of public nuisance will continue to apply and are not overridden by a specific constitutional right to land use. So your neighbour can complain about the smell coming off of your weed and could seek an injunction to stop you from growing skunky weed in your back garden. Under Tax Can 2010, I am unable to see how such an injunction could be successful.

Important: Under Tax Can 2010, every citizen is entitled to possess a minimum of one ounce of MJ. If the citizen is a medical MJ patients, then the MMJ limits apply instead (the weight limit is one of reasonableness under the CUA, or 8 ounces for voluntary cardholders). State and Local governments are empowered to increase the maximum weight limit, but are not entitled to decrease it lower than one ounce.

Under CCI, there simply are no weight limits imposed in terms of the amount of MJ a citizen is allowed to possess. This is an important distinction between the CCI and Tax Can 2010.

Medical Marijuana and the Compassionate Use Act (Prop 215): Neither proposal intereferes with the essential rights granted to California patients under Prop 215. If your right under the new initiative is better than under the CUA, you can assert the new right. If the CUA right is better, you can continue to rely upon that right. Your rights are always whichever one is better; you are never forced to choose the lesser right.

Overall, I think people are reading a lot of hype penned by Bruce Cain uncritically, without stopping to read the proposals to see if what he is saying is actually true. To the best of my knowledge, Bruce Cain is NOT a lawyer. His interpretation of these initiatives is poor. He also appears to be trying to start his own initiative. Which probably speaks to his overall goals and impartiality (i.e., he's biased and has his own agenda).

The part that Bruce Cain says which pisses me off the most is this: The idea that NORML, MPP and DPA, all non-profit organizations which have each fought the good fight as intervenors in court and as lobbyists for years on your behalf trying to legalize marijuana, are now somehow conspiring to stop the legalization of marijuana?

That's a pile of complete and utter bullshit. Anybody who says that is a liar trying to cause the marijuana movement to destroy itself from within. Pay them no heed. It's simply not true.

 

[FreedomFGHTR]

The part that Bruce Cain says which pisses me off the most is this: The idea that NORML, MPP and DPA, all non-profit organizations which have each fought the good fight as intervenors in court and as lobbyists for years on your behalf trying to legalize marijuana, are now somehow conspiring to stop the legalization of marijuana?

That's a pile of complete and utter bullshit. Anybody who says that is a liar trying to cause the marijuana movement to destroy itself from within. Pay them no heed. It's simply not true.

Put these four pieces together. #1 Keith Stroup #2 Carter drug czar Peter Bourne #3 fat rail of coke #4 paparrazi style photograph...

There are a lot of people who feel that NORML blew our chance of legalizing weed by publishing photo's of the drug czar doing a rail of coke. Carter and Bourne were going to do it until NORML blew it over a rail of coke.

 

[JackTheGrower]

So then what can TC2010 do that CCI Cannot?

If we are talking about cannabis freedom here then perhaps one can do everything the other does and more?

Are we willing to go line by line and compare.

 

[fatigues]

Of course it is a major move to monopolize the market. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to look at the writing on the wall. Why else would you put in the proposal for it to be left up to the local government to decide if they want to penalize Cannabis users, and then allows the local government to apply new laws and penalties for the sale or purchasing of Cannabis.

Interesting. Can you show me where, specifically :

1) Tax Can 2010 provides for local governments "to decide if they want to penalize Cannabis users"

Answer: it says no such thing. You'll be looking for that for a long while.

2) Tax Can 2010 provides for local government to apply new laws and penalties for the sale or purchase of Cannabis?

That will be a loooooooong search my friend. It's not there. What is there is this:

Section 11304: Effect of Act and Definitions:

(c) No person shall be punished, fined, discriminated against, or be denied any right or privilege for lawfully engaging in any conduct permitted by this Act or authorized pursuant to Section 11301 of this Act.

Section 11301 governs and empowers local government to set up a regulatory structure for cannabis production, transport, sale, "cannabis bars and clubs" and so forth.

In that regulatory context alone, the local government can impose civil fines and other remedies where people have not complied with the bylaws the county has created to regulate the cultivation, sale, transport, advertising etc. of cannabis.

It does not allow the county to ban cannabis or to otherwise impose new criminal laws in connection with cannabis. That's just a complete distortion of the initiative.

I might add, that's essentially the Tax Can 2010 initiative grants the same power to counties that generally prevails throughout much of the USA at a local level in relation to sale of alcohol.

A little less of a "sky is falling" attitude would be helpful.

 

[JackTheGrower]

Jack.... None of that is a reason to legalize MJ.... We could decrim MJ and have the same thing.... If you took that argument to the people it would be a joke.



Jack wake up, its not about you and your greed to grow as many plants as you can. People care more about being able to generate tax dollars through legalization, hence why you see legalize and tax as the pro-argument all the time. I don`t here the MPP out there trying to preserve "proper horticulture" as a valid argument. And I doubt there is a "land-race" of non-existant MJ in the USA.



Honestly that sounds like something Glenn Beck would throw out there.



Spoken like a true corporate lobbyist who understands that the sheep (us) won`t know whats hitting them....


By allowing corporations to get their greasy hands on the money from the legalization and sale of marijuana off the backs of hard working people like ourselves. 80 years of fighting and donating to the cause all so RJ Reynolds or Marlboro and step in and take all the money.


No I`m not saying that, I`m saying that Spyker or Pagari are so insignificant because of Ford being so big that I have never heard of them or seen them. Just like your MJ grow business will be so insignificant that we will never hear or see it also.

I`d like to know how many people on this forum smoke over priced designer cigarettes, Drink Don P., or eat at fine dining restaurants? Who`s really going to be buying your 200-300-400 dollar ounces when they can pick up Shantibaba lights from Marlboro for 5 bucks a pack.
I`m sure the breeders wouldn`t sell out also and go work for the companies for huge amounts of money right.
Lemme guess the (corporate) breeders wouldn`t install terminator genetics so that the seeds produced will not grow right.... They would never do that with garden veggies....
Oh the humanity Jack, veggies who`s seeds are sterile, they would never do that to protect their strains from competitors....

Too Late they do it with tomatoes and everything else....

I'm thinking that having a mother room, a clone room and a garden area is more than five by five.

Oaksterdam will keep a flowering room , a veg room, a mother room and a clone room illegal since even I cannot do all that in twenty five square feet nor do I want to.

 

[PharmaCan]

There seems to be a lot of disinformation here.

Most of it being spread by you it would seem. How much are you being paid by Lee to spend all this time writing such lengthy documents?

PC

 

[maxxim]

Under the CCI, the Legislature is required to create a scheme for the sale of marijuana and tax by November 2011. Under CCI, there is a MINIMUM $50 per ounce tax that must be initially applied to the sale of marijuana by the Legislature.

I can get behind that.....

will the tax be applied to when the grower sells to the dispensary or when the dispensary sells to the individual? Or both?

Under CCI, there is no max grow space or plant limit. That does not, however, relieve a person from the application of municipal zoning laws that prevent commercial agriculture from being conducted from land that is not zoned for agricultural use. So the reality is, under both, there will be some limit.

It also means that under CCI, the laws of public nuisance will continue to apply and are not overridden by a specific constitutional right to land use. So your neighbour can complain about the smell coming off of your weed and could seek an injunction to stop you from growing skunky weed in your back garden. Under Tax Can 2010, I am unable to see how such an injunction could be successful.

When its put that way then I can get behind it also....

Under CCI, there simply are no weight limits imposed in terms of the amount of MJ a citizen is allowed to possess.

Does that mean that under CCI I can stand on the street corner with a trash bag full of weed passing it out to everyone that walks by? I think it would make a great promotion for my new pot store.
Under CCI can gas stations sell real blunts now and packs of "ECSD lights"....

Sorry but there isn't two extremes, the mass produced and the super expensive in life. There is a lot of middle ground, higher quality products to choose from in different goods that aren't mass produced, but at the same time aren't designer boutique goods.

Sure there is a middle ground.... What slice of the pie does the middle ground represent? 1% maybe.... Why not have all 100% be grown and sold by small growers and stores. What benefit do you have in allowing a handful of companies dominate the market?

For example Veggies. Farmers market where I go to buy mine and they taste a lot fresher, and are a better quality then store bought. Sure, its a bit more expensive sometimes, but we aren't talking Champagne expensive here... you pay for what you get.

Ask those farmers if they would like to end the huge Agri-companies who are undercutting them and have everyone buy locally produced veggies instead....

 

[fatigues]

Most of it being spread by you it would seem. How much are you being paid by Lee to spend all this time writing such lengthy documents?

PC

Absolutely not one single cent, directly, indirectly or otherwise. I've never met the man. I'm not from California. I don't CARE which one wins, only that one of them does.

If I've made a mistake in my legal analysis (which is possible) show me where.

Otherwise, you might keep your words soft and sweet in case you are forced to eat them.

 

[maxxim]

I'm thinking that having a mother room, a clone room and a garden area is more than five by five.

Oaksterdam will keep a flowering room , a veg room, a mother room and a clone room illegal since even I cannot do all that in twenty five square feet nor do I want to.

Yes 5x5 is too small.....

Do you want an area restriction or a plant restriction?

Would 2-3 10x10 plots or 40-50 plants be enough? Would anyone still be crying with those numbers other then Lee and the for profit corporations?

With 40 plants I would be pounding out a minimum 10 pounds a month easily. Is 10 pounds a month to small for anyone to make money? I`m being realistic because thats a friggin shit ton of weed. And once a few people see just how easy it is to make money in post prohibition you know everyone and their mother will be growing and if the demand is not high enough then the clubs can hire locals to grow for them..... Seriously who "wouldn`t" want a job working from home watching TV and making sure the lights are coming on....
And best of all you can be stoned 24/7 while your doing it....

Seriously.....

 

[Kola Radical]

Even if it's legal to grow, most people won't bother. Trying to treat cannabis differently from any other product in amerika is a huge mistake. Greed will reign anyway no matter what.

Legalize it.. tax the bejessus out of it. Everyone in the business gets a share of the profits including the gubment.

Lazy people will still buy it from me because I don't charge or pay taxes. I stopped participating in that years ago.

 

[Pythagllio]

Most of it being spread by you it would seem. How much are you being paid by Lee to spend all this time writing such lengthy documents?

PC

No, it's just not possible that there are people that honestly disagree with you. You've got it all figured out, and anyone who presents themselves in opposition must actually secretly agree with you, but are presenting a different point of view because they're corrupt. After all, you know everything, and your moral code is superior and righteous to all others.

What I want to know is will the extremist assholes who are denigrating the Lee proposition actually vote for both, and hope that the 3 legged horse in the race pulls out the upset? Or do they really support that people should keep being put in jail in order to support their extremist viewpoint? Do people honestly believe that the rednecks in Butte County and the conservative San Diegans are actually going to go for amnesty? No chance that enough voters might say 'I don't care what they do in Oakland, but here in Trinity County we don't want dope'? Are you so into forcing this into every community that you would rather see it remain illegal everywhere?

You people just don't get it. If you demand all or nothing you get nothing.

 

[FreedomFGHTR]

I think it would be cool if people started protesting infront of Lee's club, say maybe on Friday's from 4-7? I heard birds chriping about somethign like that earlier today.