4800 watt ebb & flood questions... need help

[mikeross]

You will love the hydroton. Washing it No. Lol. Once you get a system down it's not so bad, though. When using this type of system use an areo style cloner spraying directly on stem (soon to be root area) and you'll have no medium(to mess with at all) to root & veg in !!! (easiest way to clone ever.) Then transfer to pots with giant root mass, add hydroton, grow.

Very easy.

Any ??'s

sorry for the confusion, just burned one. So your saying if I wanted to use hydroton I don't have to mess with cloning in rockwool? Just build an aero cloner and once the cuttings develop decent size roots just transfer them into hydroton? This won't be to much stress on the plants? I assume you would just fill about 1/3 of the pot with hytroton suspend the rooted clone with one hand and slowly fill the rest of the pot with hydroton?

The above does sound like it would work... I honestly don't recall every seeing anyone doing it on this site. Most pics I have seen are from rooter clones in rockwool.

 

[Lazyman]

Ok, some thoughts on your system, I'm using something similar and am halfway through my second run with it (see my sig)

Stoney's a damn good grower, but most guys can't get 2# a light out of 1000W, let alone 600W. Movers are a pain in the ass IMHO, one more thing to break, tangle, and maintain. Also makes air cooling hoods harder and less efficient (additional bends/length etc) If you want to use 600W lights, 3 is much better than two. Two only give you 18.75w per square foot, which is simply not good enough for making dense buds.

Doing a SCROG AND perpetual? Jesus man, I hope you don't have a job or anything that ever requires you to leave your house. Even small SCROG grows take a serious time investment, and perpetual grows are even more labor-intensive. You can do whatever you please of course, but don't say you haven't been warned!

Coco mats, neat product, but I dislike their use in trays because:
You can't rotate plants
You can't move plants to another tray
You can't move short plants to the middle of the tray and vice-versa

Unmoveable plants would drive me bonkers, how do you stand it Bababooey?

Anyway, I've done Hydroton and coco (and others) but I'll take coco over any of them. Hydroton is reuseable yes, but that's one of the only things I like about it. It doesn't wick, holds nearly no water, gives you no buffer against pump failure, and is basically the most unforgiving medium in the game (except maybe air/fogponics) Hang out in the coco forum a while before you make your decision, but I'll tell ya I've never had the growth I've seen in coco, almost twice as fast as I've seen in soil and coco chips even.

I use pairs of 4X4s instead of 4X8s, they stack, are much easier to handle and move, and there's less sag in the middle. Build platforms instead of perimeter tables and they'll stay flat.

Plant counts, well I started with 190 plants in my 8 4X4s, and tossed some and lost some. I'm at about 160 right now in 2 gallon smartpots of coco, but here's what I've learned fits in a 4X4:

36 tiny plants (less than a foot tall, yield about 1/4 to 1/2 oz each
25 small plants (12-16 inches tall, yield about 1/2 to 3/4 oz each
16 small/mediums (17-20 inches tall, yield about 3/4oz to 1 oz each
9 mediums, (21-26 inches tall, yield about 1 1/4 to 1 3/4 oz each
4 large, 27-36 inches tall, yield about 2-3 oz each

All except the large plants were vegged 1-2 weeks, size depends on strain and of course, how well you care for them. You will need a lot of clones (and moms) to fill 4 4X8 tables, no way around it. If you don't have enough you'll have empty trays, which is not a good position to be in, trust me.

I like the 16 plant trays best, good mix of size and yield, not too big (little staking needed) and a packed table. Remember, two pounds would be two ounces X 16 20" tall plants! Doable with CO2 and the right strain, but man, you better have every single thing in that room perfect. You most certainly won't get 2# a light your first grow, I've been growing for like 6 years now and have only got as high as 1.6# per 1000W light, and that was with a 4 week veg time on some big soil bushes, not good for E&F trays for sure.

Not trying to rain on your parade, just trying to make sure you know what you're getting in to. LOTS of clones, lots of light (you'll fear your power bill) and lots of cooling, and of course, a metric assload of time your first couple runs.

BTW, my comments and room above was/is all under 1000W lights, good nutes and a stable environment, AC and 2 dehumidifiers, but no CO2.

 

[mikeross]

Ok, some thoughts on your system, I'm using something similar and am halfway through my second run with it (see my sig)

Stoney's a damn good grower, but most guys can't get 2# a light out of 1000W, let alone 600W.

I'm not trying to get two pounds per light... My goal is to at least hit 1lbs per 600 which shouldn't be an issue.

I have only been growing a little over a year. The only method I have experience with is aero/nft. I clone/veg in aero using 2" net pots and move my plants into a homemade fence post flowering unit @ about 8-10". My flowering unit looks exactly like the one pictured below except I'm using a slightly shorter res and instead of 18 plants I am only running 14 plants spaced farther apart... 5 plants on the 2 outside rails and 4 plants in the middle rail.

I have 3 of these flowering units each under a 600watt. I harvest 15-18oz(different strains) in a sealed room with c02 from each flowering unit every 3 weeks on average.

 

[mikeross]

Doing a SCROG AND perpetual? Jesus man, I hope you don't have a job or anything that ever requires you to leave your house. Even small SCROG grows take a serious time investment, and perpetual grows are even more labor-intensive. You can do whatever you please of course, but don't say you haven't been warned!

I don't have a lot of experience using a scrog method. My last 2 harvest I was experimenting with a 4x4" netting. I don't know if I am doing it right but all I do it top my plans once they have rooted well @ about 8-10" in veg, this give me about 6-8 tops per plant. I give them about 2 days to recoup and then throw them into my flowering room. Give them a few days to stretch and then I put my screen on. All I do is move/bend and even top again the higher shoots into the netting and wait for the lower shoots to catch up. This eventually give me a nice even canopy. I also end up lollipoping any shoots that don't make it up into the canopy. Along the way I also tuck leaves and if they don't stay tucked I usually just cut them off or cut them in half. Once the stretch seems to stop I don't touch the plants anymore until harvest.

Now I don't know if I'm doing it right. I just did a lot of reading and kinda developed what works for me based on all the info I read from various members on the site. My last 2 harvest have been the biggest yielding thus far using a scrog method.

I would love any insight on anything I am doing wrong here though... You have a lot more experience then me.

 

[mikeross]

You will need a lot of clones (and moms) to fill 4 4X8 tables, no way around it. If you don't have enough you'll have empty trays, which is not a good position to be in, trust me.

Right now with my current aero setup I honestly don't have any mothers. I take clones off my veg plants. Keep the cuttings in my aerocloner for 3 weeks then move then to my veg container for another 3 weeks. Doing this sets me up for a nice harvest every 3 weeks with 3 flowering units.

I do plan to keep a couple mothers in this new setup... I plan to keep about 6-8 mothers actually. I know I don't need that many but I like the idea of keeping a couple nice mothers from different strains and having the ability to change it up. I have never kept mothers before.

I am now set of using 6x6x8" square pots filled with 100% coco. I will fill each 4x8 table with 32 pots. I figured with 4-4x8 tables I would be harvesting every 2 weeks. My plan was to take around 40 cuttings and give them 2 weeks to establish roots. I would then pick the best 32 clones out of the 40 taken and move them into my veg setup for another 2 weeks. If this works, every 2 weeks I would be...

-Harvest 1 4x8 table
-move my 32 veg plants into the flowering room
-move the best 32 out of 40 rooted clones into my veg setup
-take 40 cuttings, plant them and move them into my cloneing setup.

 

[mikeross]

Now I have a couple questions...

In my current setup I like to take more cuttings then I will need and pick out the best. I guess I have gotten better with time/experience because I don't see the need to take more cuttings then I need. All my clones seem to be pretty uniform and all rooting fine. I only plan to take more cuttings then needed in the beggining of this new setup until I get everything dialed in. Like I said I have never used any type of medium before so I have no clue how my cuttings will react if I clone then straight into coco.

Are you cloneing directly into coco?
Is it a longer process compared to other methods?

To save time I was planning to clone directly into 6" pots. If I was able to do this I would never have to transplant anything. It similar to my aero setup. I use the same 2" net pot from my cloner move it to my my veg container and then move to my flowering units. Plant stays in the same 2" netpot from clone to harvest. Saves me a lot of time.

What type of issues will I run into if I decide to do a similar method cloneing directing into 6" pots filled with coco? I figured I could fit 40 6x6 pots in a 2.5'x4' space and just have some fluorecents above. I then plan to move the best 32 rooted clones into a veg setup which would consist of a 3x3 flood and drain setup under a 600hps or 400mh.

Bro any help you can give me is much appreciated

 

[Bababooey]

Your plan sounds good.
Can your aero cloner work without the netpots? Maybe just use 2" neoprene collars (the ez cloner ones, think they're about 50 cents each)? That way you can transfer rooted cuttings directly into the coco pots.
I've transferred rooted cuts from an aerogarden (yes, the thing u see on tv) directly into hydroton filled netpots no problem. But since you're not using hydroton, it's irrelevant.
Ive never done a scrog, well at least one that really worked. I think you want to make sure the screen is filled up before you switch to flower. Then they stretch and you'll get many nice, long (1-2 feet) and big cola's to harvest. So the scrog will let you get a good veg time in: bigger plants, bigger root systems, before you hit 12/12. How much your plants stretch in flower is directly related to how big they are when they go in.
Since you'll be (have been, actually) scrogging in veg, I'm assuming each of these units are in separate rooms? So when u flip one unit to 12/12, it won't affect the other units/lights?
Anyway, I like your plan. Do you know what type of nutes you're going to use? Hydro nutes work with coco ebb and flow, but they have coco specific nutes that might work even better. Do you know how you're going to get rid of the trash (used coco, roots, stalks and leaves)? Also, have you considered buying an automatic trimmer? The cheapest automatic ones can be had for around $1500, but it might be well worth it unless you like handtrimming...

BTW, Lazyman, I don't actually use the coco mats. I do plan on doing an ebb and flow with 3 gallon coco pots, but I'm still in the middle of setting it up...

 

[bkob89]

5 gallon buckets w/ RDWC + 1000w on light movers FTW

 

[mikeross]

You will need a lot of clones (and moms) to fill 4 4X8 tables, no way around it. If you don't have enough you'll have empty trays, which is not a good position to be in, trust me.

Remember, two pounds would be two ounces X 16 20" tall plants! Doable with CO2 and the right strain, but man, you better have every single thing in that room perfect. You most certainly won't get 2# a light your first grow, I've been growing for like 6 years now and have only got as high as 1.6# per 1000W light, and that was with a 4 week veg time on some big soil bushes, not good for E&F trays for sure.

BTW, my comments and room above was/is all under 1000W lights, good nutes and a stable environment, AC and 2 dehumidifiers, but no CO2.

I am only trying to achieve 1lbs per 600watts. I don't think I will have issues obtaining that goal if everything goes somewhat smoothly. If I don't reach it the first couple harvest that's fine with me but If I can't achieve that in a room that I feel is totally dialed in, something is wrong. This will be a sealed room with c02.

Now I don't plan to fill all the tables at once. I am going to fill 1 table every two weeks in hopes to have all 4 tables filled within 2 months. This is going to be a very long process before everything is up and running. I am relocating and setting up from scratch. Have to buy all new equipment and everything. This will also be the first time for me growing plants from seed and trying to find the perfect pheno from each batch... this is a whole other thread in itself lol.

 

[mikeross]

Not trying to rain on your parade, just trying to make sure you know what you're getting in to. LOTS of clones, lots of light (you'll fear your power bill) and lots of cooling, and of course, a metric assload of time your first couple runs.

BTW, my comments and room above was/is all under 1000W lights, good nutes and a stable environment, AC and 2 dehumidifiers, but no CO2.

A brief equipment list...

8 ss2 hoods
4 dual 600watt Lumatek ballast
2 light rail 5.0 with 10rpm motors
4 4x8 flood tables
4 100gallon reservoirs
1 10" max fan(1019cfm) on a canfilter 150 scrubbing the room/no exhaust
1 Santa fe dehumidifier
1 16k or 18k mr.slim mini split
green air cd-36 co2 generator
Not sure on the fan for the air cooling, still researching a manifold design

This room will be 11x20x8tall. I figured I would have 2 4x8 tables end to end on either side of the room with a 3' walkway between the two tables.

This setup is extremely similar to stoney's 4800 watt grow. Each row would be 4'x16' long with 4 reflectors over each table. All reflectors would be connected to a 1x1" piece of aluminum and the piece of aluminum would be connecting to a light rail 5 and a couple trollys.

I plan to air cool the hoods in a manifold style design which I am still researching. I was planning on having a 10"or12" by 11 foot long plenum duct on the intake side of the room. I would then exit 2-6" sections off the large plenum. Each 6" section would be connecting to the 4 reflectors. on the exhuast side of the room would be another large plenum accepting the 2-6" flex duct work. I would have a large fan position in the middle of the exhuast plenum exuasting the hot air into the duct work of my home during colder months and also rig it in a way to vent into my attic or sewer during summer. I am not sure of the size of fan I would need but I talked with a hvac guy and he said I should only use 1 fan on my exhuast side and nothing on the intake side. anyways, The 4 reflectors will have a solid duct work conneting them... the only flexible duct work will be the connections made to the plenum. It needs to be flexible because of the light movers. I figure I would need just over 12" of slack on either ends.

 

[mikeross]

Your plan sounds good.
Can your aero cloner work without the netpots? Maybe just use 2" neoprene collars (the ez cloner ones, think they're about 50 cents each)? That way you can transfer rooted cuttings directly into the coco pots.

I wrote it out wrong. In my areo cloner I don't use net pots yet. The plants are held in the aero cloner via 2" neoprene collars. Once they show roots I transfer the 2" neoprene collar onto a 2" net pot and place them into my veg units.

I gotta run but will explain my scrog method a little more in detail when I get back. Keep in mind I don't really know what I am doing but have developed my own way. I have gotten better yields out of scrog method so its working

To quickly answer your question though, I have 3 flowering units in the same room and I don't place the screen on them during veg... I place the screen during the first or second week of 12/12. The plants don't really start making their way into the screen until the second week of 12/12. Only the main shoots make it to the screen 1st week and then I bend them back down so the lower shoots can catch up. Gotta run but will explain more when I get home tonight.

 

[mikeross]

Anyway, I like your plan. Do you know what type of nutes you're going to use? Hydro nutes work with coco ebb and flow, but they have coco specific nutes that might work even better. Do you know how you're going to get rid of the trash (used coco, roots, stalks and leaves)? Also, have you considered buying an automatic trimmer? The cheapest automatic ones can be had for around $1500, but it might be well worth it unless you like handtrimming...

Because this will be my first time using a flood & drain as well as using coco, I plan to keep the nutrients pretty simple. Probably going to use a 1part like floranova or cns17.

In my aero setup I'm using clomex. For veg I'm currently using Cal-mag plus, Liquid Karma and Pure blend pro veg formula. For flower I'm currently using Cal-mag plus, Botanicare sweet, Liquid Karma and Pure blend pro bloom.

 

[Bababooey]

Wow, I dont envy you all the work you're going to do. Still, the satisfaction of setting up a mostly automated grow will be worth the blood, sweat and tears.
It sounds like you've thought this out thoroughly. There are always little things that crop up unexpectedly during setup, but I'm sure you'll be able to handle them.
When you scrogged before, how high did the tops get above the screens? I would think you would want the tops a good 2 feet above the screens when stretch is finished, in order to maximize yield.
There's nothing simpler than a one part nute (one for grow, one for bloom). They make a special coco version of cns17, don't they?

I'm sure you'll be successful. Keep us up to date if you can.

 

[Lazyman]

I don't have a lot of experience using a scrog method. My last 2 harvest I was experimenting with a 4x4" netting. I don't know if I am doing it right but all I do it top my plans once they have rooted well @ about 8-10" in veg, this give me about 6-8 tops per plant. I give them about 2 days to recoup and then throw them into my flowering room. Give them a few days to stretch and then I put my screen on. All I do is move/bend and even top again the higher shoots into the netting and wait for the lower shoots to catch up. This eventually give me a nice even canopy. I also end up lollipoping any shoots that don't make it up into the canopy. Along the way I also tuck leaves and if they don't stay tucked I usually just cut them off or cut them in half. Once the stretch seems to stop I don't touch the plants anymore until harvest.

Now I don't know if I'm doing it right. I just did a lot of reading and kinda developed what works for me based on all the info I read from various members on the site. My last 2 harvest have been the biggest yielding thus far using a scrog method.

I would love any insight on anything I am doing wrong here though... You have a lot more experience then me.

Hey bro, yeah I can throw in my two cents here and there, happy to help.

Yep SCROG is definitely one of the best-yielding methods around, second only to vertical grows. However, I don't see anyone trying to do it on a large scale (and your grow would qualify) due to the amount of time needed to train what will be around 100-150 plants. You'll have SO much to dial in on a whole new system, that if you were trying to do a SCROG at the same time the girls would likely suffer (again, if you don't have a job, nothing else to do then ok, but I still wouldn't even then, being kinda lazy.) Keep it simple as possible, so you can devote more time to making the plants happy.

My recommendation would be to get your lights and tables set up, probably no CO2 the first run, no SCROG the first run either, and figure out the medium, environment, watering and feeding first.

I also strongly recommend pre-treating coco with calmag and strong ferts, or you can use Cann Bio Terra Plus (soil, but made with coco instead of peat moss) but it's pricey.

 

[Lazyman]

Right now with my current aero setup I honestly don't have any mothers. I take clones off my veg plants. Keep the cuttings in my aerocloner for 3 weeks then move then to my veg container for another 3 weeks. Doing this sets me up for a nice harvest every 3 weeks with 3 flowering units.

I do plan to keep a couple mothers in this new setup... I plan to keep about 6-8 mothers actually. I know I don't need that many but I like the idea of keeping a couple nice mothers from different strains and having the ability to change it up. I have never kept mothers before.

I am now set of using 6x6x8" square pots filled with 100% coco. I will fill each 4x8 table with 32 pots. I figured with 4-4x8 tables I would be harvesting every 2 weeks. My plan was to take around 40 cuttings and give them 2 weeks to establish roots. I would then pick the best 32 clones out of the 40 taken and move them into my veg setup for another 2 weeks. If this works, every 2 weeks I would be...

-Harvest 1 4x8 table
-move my 32 veg plants into the flowering room
-move the best 32 out of 40 rooted clones into my veg setup
-take 40 cuttings, plant them and move them into my cloneing setup.

In my experience mothers tend to prefer large pots (most guys handwater them) and fluoro lighting, MH just isn't needed to make bushy moms. I would ustilize multiple moms (preferably clones of each other so you have just 1 pheno) so you can have a more even canopy. one strain per reservoir is best, otherwise you get into a situation where you've got two strains (or more) on 1 res and one wants more food and one wants less, it sucks!

Yeah perpetual is a lot of work, every two weeks you'll also be cutting, trimming, drying, jarring, etc, in addition to the work above. Full time work, but if it gets to be too much I'd recommend doing two tables a month instead of 1 every 2 weeks.

Your pots and veg schedule sound fine, no concerns there. You should pull around 2 ounces per plant depending on strain, maybe even more!

 

[Lazyman]

Now I have a couple questions...

In my current setup I like to take more cuttings then I will need and pick out the best. I guess I have gotten better with time/experience because I don't see the need to take more cuttings then I need. All my clones seem to be pretty uniform and all rooting fine. I only plan to take more cuttings then needed in the beggining of this new setup until I get everything dialed in. Like I said I have never used any type of medium before so I have no clue how my cuttings will react if I clone then straight into coco.

Are you cloneing directly into coco?
Is it a longer process compared to other methods?

To save time I was planning to clone directly into 6" pots. If I was able to do this I would never have to transplant anything. It similar to my aero setup. I use the same 2" net pot from my cloner move it to my my veg container and then move to my flowering units. Plant stays in the same 2" netpot from clone to harvest. Saves me a lot of time.

What type of issues will I run into if I decide to do a similar method cloneing directing into 6" pots filled with coco? I figured I could fit 40 6x6 pots in a 2.5'x4' space and just have some fluorecents above. I then plan to move the best 32 rooted clones into a veg setup which would consist of a 3x3 flood and drain setup under a 600hps or 400mh.

Bro any help you can give me is much appreciated

Well I don't clone anymore (not enough power for a veg room) so I'm currently buying clones from a buddy, but I take rooted clones and put them straight into 2 gallon pots (8" round) Smartpots of plain coco, no amendments besides my calmag/grow nutes/beneficials. No problems whatsoever, the growth is explosive, to say the least. Most of the plants I did this way got to over 2 feet tall with 1 week of veg, I can only fit 7-9 of them in 1 4X4.

I think your cloning and veg setups sound just fine, but I don't know about cloning straight into coco (Dongle does) but I'm sure if she can do it it's fine!

Just remember, coco will absorb a ton of nutes in the beginning, and if you don't pretreat or use Canna terra soil, you'll have to overwater them to feed them, so they won't grow roots well. Pretreat + little watering the first 1-2 weeks = TONS of roots, then you can water and feed to your hearts content!

 

[Lazyman]

Oh yeah, Greyskull has a system like youre planning too, check it out when you have a sec...

 

[Bababooey]

L-man: thanks for sharing your experience.
So each of your plants winds up 2 feet tall? And you yield about 1.25 to 1.75 ozs from each one? Is the canopy pretty even, are they pretty bushy? Do you top or train at all?
I figure, if hes having to harvest 2lbs every two weeks, he can get it down to about 2 hours a day working on the grow, with a 12 hour day on harvest day. Certainly doable, even if you have other obligations.

 

[Lazyman]

L-man: thanks for sharing your experience.
So each of your plants winds up 2 feet tall? And you yield about 1.25 to 1.75 ozs from each one? Is the canopy pretty even, are they pretty bushy? Do you top or train at all?
I figure, if hes having to harvest 2lbs every two weeks, he can get it down to about 2 hours a day working on the grow, with a 12 hour day on harvest day. Certainly doable, even if you have other obligations.

Any time bro, that's what we're here for.

Yeah, 2 feet is about average for happy healthy plants. I top leggy strains, and clean up the bottom branches a bit so I don't end up with much popcorn. Fairly even canopy, yep full of little bushes. I'm on my first "good" run with my new system (first run was a shitty dial-in run) so I'm being conservative with my yield estimates, 2 oz a plant would be great but I don't want to get my hopes up yet.

Regarding labor, the time I spend on the room varies quite a bit, but since they will be similar in size, here's what I usually end up like:

First 2-3 weeks I'm in there around 2-3 hours a day on average, weekends more, weekdays less, but that's average. During flower I can cut back quite a bit, sometimes only checking on the room every few days, but on weekends I spend a lot of time doing cleanup, nutes and foliar sprays. This is with a pretty low-maintenance SOG grow and a dialed-in system, with no veg room at all, no moms, no clones, just an 8KW flower room with no CO2.

When my system was new I was in there a good 3-4 hours every day, can't imagine doing a couple hours of SCROG training + harvesting + cloning at the same time. CO2 makes everything grow so much faster, I'd be playing a lot of catch-up! lol

 

[Bababooey]

As long as your canopy is filled in, you're close to maximizing your light. A scrog would make the most even canopy, but the work and restrictive nature of a screen are reasons not to scrog. I suppose the ultimate maximization of light would come with a vertical grow, but those setups are less common...
I bought a co2 generator a while ago, i might fire it up again once I have my current setup finished. Do you have a co2 meter/controller? I don't; I know I really should have one but there's ways to calculate how long it should be on to reach the desired ppm in a given room size.
Where's Mike? I hope he's setting up his room; sounds like he's got a good week's worth of work ahead of him. I hope things are going well...