15 plant coco grow, recurring Nutrient/Magnesium deficiency problem

[daihashi]

If anyone's curious I just ran a test with the Mr. Clean now.

My water tests at 313 PPM.
After running it through the Mr. Clean.... 7ppm. Yes 7ppm.

It takes me between 2-3 minutes to fill a 1 gallon jug. I would say it takes me on average about 12 minutes to fill a 5 gallon bucket with water using the Mr. Clean.

I did 15 gallons as I started doing my last 3 gallons i could tell the filter was going to need replacement. It was an older filter but the water started being filtered less and less. It typically goes (and did go this way this time) from 7ppm, to 13ppm, to 25ppm to 60ppm.

Generally once my filter hits 60-70ppm I toss it out. It doesn't take long, as soon as you notice your ppm rise it will continue to double with each gallon you fill (my personal experience anyway). Hope this help someone who may not be able to plunk down 100 bucks for an RO system.. or it may help that one person who only grows 1-6 plants.

 

[habeeb]

below 5.8 you have ca being released, and Mag being held in the coco, above 5.8 you reverse the cycle listed

you might have loaded to much cal causing a lockout on mag?

I don't run coco , so good luck

 

[Tokesome]

If anyone's curious I just ran a test with the Mr. Clean now.

My water tests at 313 PPM.
After running it through the Mr. Clean.... 7ppm. Yes 7ppm.

It takes me between 2-3 minutes to fill a 1 gallon jug. I would say it takes me on average about 12 minutes to fill a 5 gallon bucket with water using the Mr. Clean.

I did 15 gallons as I started doing my last 3 gallons i could tell the filter was going to need replacement. It was an older filter but the water started being filtered less and less. It typically goes (and did go this way this time) from 7ppm, to 13ppm, to 25ppm to 60ppm.


Generally once my filter hits 60-70ppm I toss it out. It doesn't take long, as soon as you notice your ppm rise it will continue to double with each gallon you fill (my personal experience anyway). Hope this help someone who may not be able to plunk down 100 bucks for an RO system.. or it may help that one person who only grows 1-6 plants.

Don`t know if they`re available in the UK but it sounds impressive. How many gallons does it do per filter, any idea, not just the 15 I assume?

Tokesome

 

[opt1c]

use either the calmax or epsom salts not both; epsom salt is mag and sodium and doesn't really help with the calcium imbalance if there is one; calmax is calcium, chlorine, mag, and nitrogen with some iron and fulvic extracts(never hurt) added to the mix; it seems as if cal-max and cal-mag are the same except cal-mag uses calcium nitrate whereas cal-max uses calcium chloride... fun stuff eh

i might try different nute mixes in your different res's; ie add the calmax to one and not the others; see the difference in a few days and go from there

what are your temps?

seems like you have more time than money; perhaps hand watering this crop will give them the love they need... watering from the top and letting it drain into the res is ideal; ph/ec the water before and after; you'll probably be surprised; water with plain water that is ph'd and nothing else when flushing

additionally if you really want to take care of this problem this grow and you plan on continuing to grow with this setup in the future; i know a lot of people get discouraged and then change everything up, i'd treat each reservoir and plants differently; a,b, and c... i'd give each one a different nute mix/ratio within range; maybe one at the lower ph end one at the higher; and then see if one tray does better than the rest and switch the others to that formula

you sure you don't have any fungus gnats or root aphids; they can cause all sorts of problems that look like lockout issues

is any light getting into your res'z? light leaks can phuck with ph all day.

i hope those pics are at the start of week 5 with all hydro nutes less is always more so be careful when upping the nute strength having not worked out your current issues especially during the pk loading period

also if you have a friend who has great luck growing the same strain have em over to see your setup in person if possible and they're trustworthy, ie they've already seen it before, to get a fresh set of eyes on the problem


also; after doing all this stuff so far.... has the problem gotten worse?

good luck man; you are on the right path for sure

 

[daihashi]

Don`t know if they`re available in the UK but it sounds impressive. How many gallons does it do per filter, any idea, not just the 15 I assume?

Tokesome

You can order it off amazon.com; which I believe you have a UK site for.

I stated earlier that I generally get about 10-12 5 gallon buckets out of 1 filter. This is between 50-60 gallons per $7 filter. Even if the filter only lasted for 20 gallons the total cost per gallon of RO water is about 0.35 cents (US monetary). However currently at 60 gallons per filter I am paying 0.11 cents.

How many gallons you get out of your filter is 100% dependant on how bad your water is. During some parts of the year my municipal water does something to their water that really screws with it. During these time I DO only get 20 gallons per filter.

Whether it's 20 gallons or 60 gallons I still feel it's a good alternative value to RO water and definitely cheaper than buying Distilled from the supermarket.

 

[daihashi]

Just checked the UK site and they don't offer it but offer other mr. clean products. Odd.

I would recommend Ebay then.

Click the ebay link above for UK Mr. Clean Auto Dry auctions.

Also I'm not sure what stores are local to you but I picked mine up locally at a walmart for $9. Maybe some local stores in the UK carry it also.

 

[Tokesome]

below 5.8 you have ca being released, and Mag being held in the coco, above 5.8 you reverse the cycle listed

you might have loaded to much cal causing a lockout on mag?

I don't run coco , so good luck

Mmmm so I gather. I cant understand why Atami recommend Ph of 5.5-5.8 for their coco nutrients

I`ve flushed to waste, 12ltrs per 7ltr pot.

Now I`ve set up a res with ph 6 plain tap water and now intend to flush recycled for a further two feeds with good long gaps between. The idea to flush most stuff out running to waste, then a further couple of flushes and see if there is or how much of a rise in EC in the res.

Then tomorrow I`ll either give them Atami`s recommended feed at ph6, or a slightly lower strength and add 1/4 teaspoon per gallon of Epsom salts for extra Mg.

Does this make sense to anyone?

Will this kind of lock out correct itself if I`ve had a build up of salts or calcium in my medium. If there is anything else anyone can think of, please speak up.

Here is a picture of a runt that had not been gettin as much light. Its very thin and spindley. Many of the better plants are like this under the main stems, and many of the main stems are requiring support now, tying them up with dental floss to wires above. I dont know if this will give a clue as to whats going on here to anyone. Funny but this plant which has obviously been struggling badly is not showing much in the way of the Mg deficiency that is throughout most of the grow.

I`ll keep this out of the tank and hand feed her in a corner and see if she can improve before I bin her.

 

[daihashi]

Quick question for you. Do you get any residue on metal pots or anything after running them through the wash and letting them air dry? When running your NFT system on tap water did you have any white buildup on your hydroton or resevoirs?

I'm curious as to how much of your tap water is calcium carbonate; which is not the good kind of calcium. It's not uncommon to have high levels of this in municipal waters coming to your tap. It's just not very soluable. Other forms of calcium are better.

btw; I also recommend PH 5.9-6.1, I always use 6.0 PH water. There is more availability in that range for coco. I will never water coco with anything less than 5.8. I also keep a resevoir of RO water that is constantly bubbled and has a pump churning it. I like to make sure that my roots get lots of dissolved oxygen.

 

[rocket high]

dont bin her she looks better than mine at the mo... ive over fed mine and im getting tip burn and some rusting ...Damn

 

[Tokesome]

Yeah I get some salt build up on bottoms of pots and some in the res by the end of a grow, I always have. I thought this will happen to any equipment due to nutrient salts. I always scrub and sterilise everything.

 

[Bush Dr]

I think you've found it with the airstone, or rather lack of it

I had similar problems due to my coco compacting (which I also had in soil), the plants just struggle on, your new growth looks good, like mine, which sort of makes you think it's getting better but they're not

I think your lower leaves are showing signs of stress not any deficiency, hence the 'symptoms' aren't quite right for anything

At a guess I'd say your roots are not capable of giving you more than they do to the tops .... what are your roots like?

When I get everything right the roots look like this

When I get it wrong the roots look like this ..... the yellow circle is where the roots have died

I now use a micro diffuser line and the feed/water is at maximum dissolved oxygen ..... no more problem

Hope this helps in some way

BD

 

[Tokesome]

Well I got busy today and didn`t get chance to get airstones and lines but I`m going to be on that tmro.

I might try and pull one of the girls from the pots and see what the roots are like, I`m a bit worried about it falling apart due to the clay pebbles in the mix though, oh and a layer of them at the bottom of the pot. It could be messy, perhaps I`d better not. I might pull the runt out of the pot. I dont expect the root system to be up to much but at least I¬ see if they`re white or going manky. This one will definitely have been over fed/watered so I d expect them to be a bit off maybe, we`ll see.

Do you think there`s a possibility an airstone in each res could help this situation? Its strange I haven`1t had it with previous strains, but at the moment everything is confusing me and I crave simplicity.
Mmm, though my ph meter is reading 5.8-6.0, my drip test kit (6-7.6) is reading around 6.2-6.4 I think. I callibrate my meter and it reads bang on 7 in buffer 7 solution.

If I`ve been feeding at a higher ph than I thought, could that be doing this kind of mischief. I think I`m barking up a wrong one there as I`ve been testing with drip test kit for a while now as a back up so I think if there is an error now it`ll be a new one, but who knows if its a tempremental meter.

F**k the more I look the harder this is, its like I`m freakin jinxed at the mo.

Tokesome

 

[Tokesome]

Ok they`ve been well and truly flushed.

I`ve filled the res` 90% and standing before adding nutrients for a couple of hours. 3 res, only one air stone, so half and hour aerating each too. Then I`ll mix the nutrients and then top up the 10% with straight tap water to ensure a good mix, then adjust ph. I`ll leave the pumps on in the tanks (not to the drippers) just to keep stuff stirring throughout all this and leave for another hour or so before feeding for 15 minutes

Now I intend to fill up with a fresh nutrient solution. I`m going to go with 1.2ml per liter B`cuzz A+B as opposed to the 2ml recommended ( to allow for the extra EC value for the added Epsom salts) +B`cuzz Booster 1ml (supposed to be benificial to roots), +B`cuzz Bloom stimulator 1ml (recommended 1.5ml), and some Epsom salts 1/4 teaspoon per gallon/5 liters.

I`m wondering whether to add a low dose of PK13/14, or not. Anyone any idea if this would be of benefit to these girls at this stage? I want to give them all the help I can but dont want to cause further problems for them. Any opinions?

I`ll call by a garden center tmro and get a couple of air stones so I can try and diffusing some more oxygen into the nutrient solution of each res.

I`m planning then on putting them on a 15minute feed 4 times a day. I may try and get a digital timer if I find 15 minutes is still too long a feed for them. I`m guessing my 4x45 minute feeding regime has been too much for these plants in their suffering.

Still confused by my ph meter reading 7 in Buffer 7, but reading 6 in the res whilst the drip tester kit shows 6.2-6.4? I`ll set the ph at 5.8, incase my meter is inaccurate and reading lower than the actual value. A friend is buying a new ph meter on Monday so I`ll be able to check my meter out throughout a range of ph values over a few days. With 2 meters and a drip test kit, I should be certain about the ph values I`m using.

Anyone see anything I might be missing?

I`m running three res`, so have the opertunity to try different things and compare any results, so if any of you guys have any serious suggestions I`m all ears.

Thanks, Tokesome

 

[Bush Dr]

What does your drip test give the buffer as?

7 or 7.2

Could be the reagent solution strength is changing

 

[Tokesome]

What does your drip test give the buffer as?

7 or 7.2

Could be the reagent solution strength is changing

Mmm, I`ll go and check that now, good idea Bush Dr

Well its difficult to tell in the light I have, maybe between the 2. I`ll try in daylight tmro tho.

 

[EvilTwin]

Hi Tokesome,
Glad you're getting some good help here. I'll put in a vote for the ph13/14. They're about half-way through bloom? Certainly they could benefit from the extra P and K. It does mess with ph a tad, but nothing severe.

On the chlorine...I remember you asking about that, but I don't recall if you ever got an answer. This is my understanding for allowing 24 hours for the chlorine to evaporate. It mostly relates to organic grows because the chlorine can kill off beneficial bacteria and mycorrhizals. There may be other reasons but none that I'm aware of.
Peace...
ET

 

[Tokesome]

Hi Tokesome,
Glad you're getting some good help here. I'll put in a vote for the ph13/14. They're about half-way through bloom? Certainly they could benefit from the extra P and K. It does mess with ph a tad, but nothing severe.

On the chlorine...I remember you asking about that, but I don't recall if you ever got an answer. This is my understanding for allowing 24 hours for the chlorine to evaporate. It mostly relates to organic grows because the chlorine can kill off beneficial bacteria and mycorrhizals. There may be other reasons but none that I'm aware of.
Peace...
ET

Thanks mate, yeah some one here said the chlorine will evaporate in an hour or so with some aeration. I`m hoping that an airstone in each tank and after a thorough flushing that they`ll start taking up nutrients.

The stems of my plants seem a very thin, apart from a few main stems, and wont hold up on their own accord so I`m now supporting as many as I can with several yoyos and several meters of dental floss and will keep them supported as and when needed through the grow. At least if I can get them happy and able to drink up the nutrients they`ll be able to put energy into fattening buds.

Yeah I think I`ll give em a little PK13/14, just dont want to give em a shortage of nitrogen by raising the EC with Mg and PK13/14. A little of everything for now and see how they do over the next couple of days.

I`ll go and mix some nutes up, T`some

 

[davyz44]

does ur coco ever get to dry out ?
im on coco and find it benifits not to over water spesh if ur not ox'in
the water

 

[Tokesome]

does ur coco ever get to dry out ?
im on coco and find it benifits not to over water spesh if ur not ox'in
the water

No it never dries out, I hear constantly that`s not good for Coco(?). It gets lighter of course, but is always moist. Yeah hope the ox`in will help if oxygen is part of the issue.

T`some

 

[Tokesome]

Mmm, not sure if I was reading this thread I might be thinking I`m maybe over complicating things nutrient wise. I`ve gone with the following:-

Per 60liter res

B`cuzz coco A 75ml
""""""""""""""""" B 75ml
B`cuzz booster 60ml
B`cuzz bloom stimulator 60ml
PK13/14 50ml
Epsom salts 3 teaspoons
Superthrive 1 capfull

Trying to cover what I can, and hoping not to spread any one thing too thinly for the plants. Extra Mg but not too strong, a little PK and gentle dose of A+B. Lets see what happens to the Ec after a few feeds, that`ll tell me if they`re taking to it or not, along with the look of the plants. Also consideration to oxygen in the nutrient solution I`m really hoping my plants will pick up and at least do the best for me with what they`ve got.

Its at EC1.6 and ph 5.8