Continual Cloning Potency Controversy

[Wazoo]

Statusquo: I found the guy. He is Strike99. Here is what he said "not necessarily true.... genetic degradation does take place if you clone from a clone from a clone from a clone, etc.

the first from a clone off a clone will show no degradation what so ever.... but if you continue the process you will end up with a sad, slow growing plant.


The only benefit of taking clones is speed and the ability to retain the genetic traits and sexual maturity of its mother.

.... with that being said... it would be more beneficial, in my opinion to use clones as the veg period is decreased quite a bit and you can produce a lot in a short time...

the only thing I see affecting the amount of yield is with a seed plant the root mass will have had time to accumulate as compared to that of a clone... just because of the time it took to reach sexual maturity... this would allow for more uptake of water, ferts, gases, etc... allowing for more energy / food stuffs to be devoted to flower maturation when it is necessary

also for sexing your seeds richirich ... i would take clones off the seedlings once they are large enough... then flower the clones... mothers that have been reverted are never the same (with any plant species that are photo-periodic )... at least from what I have seen...

just my 2 cents... just got me flustered when you said that degradation does not take place when you take a clone from a clone from a clone.... because it certainly does"
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[cork144]

Statusquo: I found the guy. He is Strike99. Here is what he said "not necessarily true.... genetic degradation does take place if you clone from a clone from a clone from a clone, etc.

the first from a clone off a clone will show no degradation what so ever.... but if you continue the process you will end up with a sad, slow growing plant.


The only benefit of taking clones is speed and the ability to retain the genetic traits and sexual maturity of its mother.

.... with that being said... it would be more beneficial, in my opinion to use clones as the veg period is decreased quite a bit and you can produce a lot in a short time...

the only thing I see affecting the amount of yield is with a seed plant the root mass will have had time to accumulate as compared to that of a clone... just because of the time it took to reach sexual maturity... this would allow for more uptake of water, ferts, gases, etc... allowing for more energy / food stuffs to be devoted to flower maturation when it is necessary

also for sexing your seeds richirich ... i would take clones off the seedlings once they are large enough... then flower the clones... mothers that have been reverted are never the same (with any plant species that are photo-periodic )... at least from what I have seen...

just my 2 cents... just got me flustered when you said that degradation does not take place when you take a clone from a clone from a clone.... because it certainly does"
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the way i could see a sad growing plant, would probably be linked to its expression of the pheno due to enviromental factors,

prahaps becoming used to growing in one enviroment for a long period of time where it is cloned then planted there over and over, then moved to a new enviroment.

but i could be wrong

 

[zenoonez]

Yes the photocopy example is nonsense....

I have done some cloning of fruit trees and I have parts from apple trees from the early 1800's mcintosh apple is that old....

Here is what can happen....


Here is where it could be a problem with serial cloning as I see it....

Any grow point may contain a mutation which may be bad....


If you use that grow point as a clone and select no other your plant will degrade....


however if you use several cuttings and label them.....

if you are careful that the end plant is the same as the parent plant you should in fact wind up with a perfect clone from its parent.....


remember its a clone with a very small chance for a mutation not a photocopy.....

the plant cares very little about where its roots are.....

What would cause the mutation? We aren't talking about seeding out these things, we are talking about a mutation that would have to alter the dna of a plant while it was alive due to radiation or some other similar aspect.

 

[Budley Doright]

Mutations happen infrequently but as random events....


however some mutations are caused....


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...s-Meet-red-green-apple-split-personality.html

 

[Wazoo]

Yes the photocopy example is nonsense....

I have done some cloning of fruit trees and I have parts from apple trees from the early 1800's mcintosh apple is that old....

Here is what can happen....


Here is where it could be a problem with serial cloning as I see it....

Any grow point may contain a mutation which may be bad....


If you use that grow point as a clone and select no other your plant will degrade....


however if you use several cuttings and label them.....

if you are careful that the end plant is the same as the parent plant you should in fact wind up with a perfect clone from its parent.....


remember its a clone with a very small chance for a mutation not a photocopy.....

the plant cares very little about where its roots are.....

Let me give you an example as it applies to an apple tree....


when we are talking about a mutation this is how a mutation happens....

This is the plant patent for a new apple....

its simply a mutation of the mother plant.....




BACKGROUND OF THE INVENTION
The present invention relates to a new and distinct variety of apple tree ( Malus pumila, Mill.) discovered in East Wenatchee, Wash. growing in a cultivated block of ‘Desert Rose Fuji’ (not patented). ‘Desert Rose Fuji’ is a sport of ‘BC 2 Fuji’ (not patented) apple trees. These ‘Desert Rose Fuji’ trees were growing on ‘M 26’ rootstock (not patented) planted in 1994. In the late summer (August) of 1999, I noticed on one of the ‘Desert Rose Fuji’ trees a one-inch diameter branch with four apples that had fruit with distinctly more striping and color than the fruit on the rest of the tree. This branch mutation is the origin of my new variety.

=========================================================


Now this tree had 2 distinct individuals on it.... the original tree and a branch which had mutated.....
effecting the new apples color......

however most mutations will be bad not good.....


If you take a clone from that mutated branch it will be just like that mutated branch....

however if you take it from any other branch it will be like the original plant......


If this plant was a cannabis plant..... and it had a mutated branch.....

a cutting from that branch would be like the mutated branch.....

however anywhere else on the plant would be just like the original.......


IMO this is how a mutation should occur..... only in one growpoint(future branch)

the rest should be like the original plant.....

Makes perfect sense, which makes me ponder: Are there good mutations on Weed that i should be looking for to clone?

 

[HydroManiac]

I think keeping mother plants for a long time isn't good a mj plant only lives for months and keeping it going I think is bad

 

[otherwhitemeat]

A lot of strange info being floated around here...newbies beware!!

A) Cloning does not degrade the plant or it's potency. With a few exceptions: they can be affected by mutagens like colchicine [for polyploidy perhaps] and some viruses can mutate cannabis, but these are pretty rare. There are tons of strains that exist as clones only and are not degraded. A clone would have to be exposed to a mutagen, and then mutated tissue would have to be cloned, just not very likely to happen, IMO.

B) Also, as long as the plant is not an auto-flowering variety it will not be adversely affected by revegging. I used to think this too, but I have since learned better.

If anything, a grower gets better at growing a cloned plant, after a while you get the plant dialed in, it almost speaks and tells you what it wants. 'Feed Me, Seymour!'

 

[zenoonez]

A lot of strange info being floated around here...newbies beware!!

A) Cloning does not degrade the plant or it's potency. With a few exceptions: they can be affected by mutagens like colchicine [for polyploidy perhaps] and some viruses can mutate cannabis, but these are pretty rare. There are tons of strains that exist as clones only and are not degraded. A clone would have to be exposed to a mutagen, and then mutated tissue would have to be cloned, just not very likely to happen, IMO.

B) Also, as long as the plant is not an auto-flowering variety it will not be adversely affected by revegging. I used to think this too, but I have since learned better.

If anything, a grower gets better at growing a cloned plant, after a while you get the plant dialed in, it almost speaks and tells you what it wants. 'Feed Me, Seymour!'

I have always been curious about revegging. When you reveg a plant does it yield better because of its large pre-existing root structure? It would make sense to me that the larger the root structure the better the plant can produce...

 

[Wazoo]

A lot of strange info being floated around here...newbies beware!!

A) Cloning does not degrade the plant or it's potency. With a few exceptions: they can be affected by mutagens like colchicine [for polyploidy perhaps] and some viruses can mutate cannabis, but these are pretty rare. There are tons of strains that exist as clones only and are not degraded. A clone would have to be exposed to a mutagen, and then mutated tissue would have to be cloned, just not very likely to happen, IMO.

B) Also, as long as the plant is not an auto-flowering variety it will not be adversely affected by revegging. I used to think this too, but I have since learned better.

If anything, a grower gets better at growing a cloned plant, after a while you get the plant dialed in, it almost speaks and tells you what it wants. 'Feed Me, Seymour!'

As a newbee, I thank you. BOG states that he no longer keeps mothers because they take up too much space and rather just clone from clones.
I think I can probably put to rest my fear of clone burn out. This site is great. I am humbled by so much interest in helping each other. I hope to be in a position some day to contribute. But, for right now......I am all ears!

 

[otherwhitemeat]

I have always been curious about revegging. When you reveg a plant does it yield better because of its large pre-existing root structure? It would make sense to me that the larger the root structure the better the plant can produce...

I don't veg and then reflower, I am not sure there's much benefit to be had in that. But it can be done and I've read that others have done it. Better to reveg and then take clones, IMO.

Cannabis behaves oddly when it's root system is messed with, especially if it gets rootbound. This can happen very easily with a well developed root system that's been vegged, flowered, revegged, etc. As a cab grower, I have very little space so I sometimes flower stuff out and don't have clones. If I grow a keeper, I put it back under 24-0 lighting and wait until it sprouts clone-able branches. But it works, and I've grown ounces of good pot from a single clone on a revegged plant, and each puff was just as good as the one from seed. Ask anyone with UK Cheese (the original) what they think about clone degradation.

I am all ears[/B]!

That's the way to do it; I've been at it for a while now and I am STILL learning. This site is great.

 

[magiccannabus]

The DNA of any living thing is impermanent, like everything is, but in cannabis it does not break down on it's own very easily. That is to say, it doesn't have a preset age limit like most animals do. Kept in ideal conditions, most plants can grow for decades at least. It takes something external to mutate their DNA. Radiation could do this, but there's so little left on Earth these days. Stress and disease could do this, so that's where the ideal conditions are important.

Plants have no fear of death though, they're a biological machine and when they get the right signals, they'll die on their own. This varies by plant types, but in cannabis this is caused by decreasing daylight hours. As the plant reaches the end of it's normal flowering period, it begins to decline. Even if the temperature stayed warm into winter, if the daylight hours still stay short, the plant will die.

"Cloning" is a horrible word for it in a way. "Propagating" or "splitting" might be a better word. It's not like you're taking cells in a dish and creating a whole plant from them.

 

[geopolitical]

I have had one clone strain going now for over 10 years, no loss in potency, no weird grow traits have developed.

While genetic "drift" could occur in clone lines, it's very unlikely to happen within your lifespan. For a good example take vanilla orchids or bananas. Basically all vanilla orchids on the planet (yeah I know there are the tahitis and a few others but they're minor) and bananas that you'd buy at a grocery store are clones.

As in, ALL of them. Pretty much the entire stock of both worldwide. No genetic drift in either for the most part, and that's literally billions of plants over decades or in some cases centuries.

That of course makes them both very vulnerable to things like disease (which wiped out almost entirely the predecessor of the modern banana, which was also a clone line). This shouldn't be an issue in the types of growing we do here.

 

[Strike99]

damn... lol.... I didn't know that I would cause this much fuss... nor did I mean to scare anyone into thinking they were doing something wrong =O ... I am just transferring what I have heard from my prof... and sorry about the uber lamen example ......
we did talk about cases in which mutations were formed and how those have been propagated from the very beginning of their findings...there are quite a number of species/varieties that have been retained in this manner....there are a few varieties that are dependent on a root stock for survival...
...so maybe I phrased the question wrong when I asked my prof... but he was under the impression that genetic degradation and mutation can occur...... now as people were mentioning it probably isn't in our lifetime...DNA information does break down over time... as some one mentioned in the other post where the discussion started... the telomere begins to break down which is the information holder... if you will... and is unable to pass on the original genetic coding to the next generated cells.... but there is where the question lays I guess... how long does that take? some varieties of cannabis have been raised in an environment where they only last one season,annually....their genetic information is stored into the seed whilst the others (cells with degrading dna) age (if my understanding of how aging works...maybe it is only specific to animals) maybe southern hemisphere genetics that have changed this influence... or if they are held in a photo-periodic state this is all put on hold....i am unsure....
I am definitely going to get in touch so that I am not spreading misinformation.... could be perhaps that this is an old idea....
definitely started a discussion tho... sry again... didn't mean to antagonize anything....nor to tell anyone that they are doing it wrong... just giving suggestions that I thought were correct... obviously there are many who disagree...

sorry =\

 

[Wazoo]

Heah, man, you are just giving your opinion and trying to help out. Nobody ever sent me my well deserved PERFECT CARD in the mail.. Did they send one to you? Even though I was worried by your theoritical opinion I had so many competent growers put me at ease that all is well. Frankly, i am amazed your possible theory is not right on. Glad it isn't though.....or the odds are it isn't. Cut to the chase: I feel okay about cloning clones from clones that come from cloned clones. Yet, thank you anyway. No harm, no foul.

 

[JQP]

I'm with geopolitical above. Right now I have an original female mother in reveg for the 4th time. It's easy. I remove them from the large container, cut the root ball into a smaller square, and lop off some of the bottom, then replant it into a medium pot till it starts vigorous growth, then pop it back into a larger container. In my experience, the colas keep getting bigger with each reveg.

I use Scorpio's cloning method with at least 90% success, and often, 100%. Cheap, easy, effective. Thanks Scorpio!

I've got some good weed going, and just keep cloning it and growing more. The only variation in high I see depends on length of flowering and the position of the bud on the plant. Fact is, I gotta run and do some...

JQ

 

[Maj.PotHead]

I doubt it would affect the potency, but each generation of cloning usually does affect the vigor of the plant.

no no no mang isnt true what so ever

there is no degreadation of the strain from cloning a clone of a clone of a clone of a clone, only reason mother plant is better in my eyes. is you have more cuts to choose from instead of onesy twosy type thing you'll have 10-20-30 type each time.

now i'm not sterile in my cloning and i have 98-100% sucess in a dyi clone bubbler and rock wool. i use same sissors to cut clones that i use to trim bud leaf mustach and whatever else i decied to cut. if clones are turning to mush stem rot something is causing this problem and it isnt clone of clone of clone type thing.

if somethings wrong with the vigor of the cuts growth then something was wrong with the donor plant cut came from. fresh clone should allways be cut when plants are healthy and no nitrogen either little P just before cut taken dosent hurt.

two large of cuts taken can also result in problems because theres no roots to sustain the live growth on the new fresh cut.

heres a extreamly good artical to read i think it will cover facts it pertains to [ALL ABOUT BONSAI MOMS/MUMS] http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=31919
but i think answers clone of clone question


an excerpt from the thread
[ As an outline our mother plants are kept root restricted, i.e. using some standard bonsai methodology and techniques. It is an excellent method for keeping mother plants long term and has proved a very reliable system since we developed this method some 24 years ago. The longest a mother has lived like this without having to be replaced is just over 15 years. On average pure indicas need replacing every 3 years, hybrids every 4 to 5 years and pure sativas every 6 to 7 years! Of course it depends on the care they are given! Male plants can be kept in the same way and in fact will stand more abuse than mother plants.]

 

[Maj.PotHead]

quick side note then i have to fix dinner hungry lol

few times a yr a clone or 2 stands out and i find myself making bonsai mums of them i've ran sugar shack since 06 bonsai and decapation same way since 07. i'm currently training a chem4 bonsai this should be interesting because chem4 grows roots fast lmao.

 

[Bill O'Reilly]

Taken from the wikipedia article on oranges:

Naval Oranges

A single mutation in 1820 in an orchard of sweet oranges planted at a monastery in Brazil yielded the navel orange, also known as the Washington, Riverside, or Bahie navel. The mutation causes the orange to develop a second orange at the base of the original fruit, opposite the stem, as a conjoined twin in a set of smaller segments embedded within the peel of the larger orange. From the outside, it looks similar to the human navel, thus its name.

Because the mutation left the fruit seedless, and therefore sterile, the only means available to cultivate more of this new variety is to graft cuttings onto other varieties of citrus tree. Two such cuttings of the original tree were transplanted[2] to Riverside, California in 1870, which eventually led to worldwide popularity.

Today, navel oranges continue to be produced via cutting [CLONING] and grafting. This does not allow for the usual selective breeding methodologies, and so not only do the navel oranges of today have exactly the same genetic makeup as the original tree, and are therefore clones, in a sense, all navel oranges can be considered to be the fruit of that single over-a-century-old tree. This is similar to the common yellow seedless banana, the Cavendish. On rare occasions, however, further mutations can lead to new varieties.[3]
--------------------------------------------------------

DNA is DNA.

When you take a cutting you are copying the DNA.

Plant cells are pluripotent. Any one cell of the plant has the ability to regrow the entire plant given that the proper growth hormones are present.

-BILLO

 

[Tripsick]

ill use the analogy of cloning cd's the last is the same as the original
i think that's why the use the word Cloning..

=)

 

[Esskie]

I have had one clone strain going now for over 10 years, no loss in potency, no weird grow traits have developed.

While genetic "drift" could occur in clone lines, it's very unlikely to happen within your lifespan. For a good example take vanilla orchids or bananas. Basically all vanilla orchids on the planet (yeah I know there are the tahitis and a few others but they're minor) and bananas that you'd buy at a grocery store are clones.

As in, ALL of them. Pretty much the entire stock of both worldwide. No genetic drift in either for the most part, and that's literally billions of plants over decades or in some cases centuries.

That of course makes them both very vulnerable to things like disease (which wiped out almost entirely the predecessor of the modern banana, which was also a clone line). This shouldn't be an issue in the types of growing we do here.

I agree and have heard the degrading THC content/potency/yield/quality argument before but haven't found anything in my experience that backs it up

when I was growing constantly on a larger scale I used clones of clones of clones etc grown hydroponically

however, there was one Humboldt SnowBud that I had for more than 5~6yrs in a soil mix, I developed an attachment to her after almost loosing her once while a friend was baby-sitting

She came back in a really sorry state, hardly any leaves, just a few small weak shoots showing along the bare stems but we managed to nurture her back to full health. After that, and the fact it was one of the best strains we had for a night time smoke, she became a permanent fixture in the vegroom

I can honestly say that whether the clones came from the mother in soil or from the previous batch of clones, it was identical
not only that but it sustained that quality from my very first grow of the strain to the last