Continual Cloning Potency Controversy

[Wazoo]

I am under the impression that continual cloning from the same strain, if done properly, will result in pure genetic transfers without any loss on any degree from the original clone taken from seed.
Yet, I read a post from a seemingly intelligent schooled guy who said basically that if you continue to only clone from clones it will eventually result in weakening the strain. He made the layman example of photocopying wherein with each generation of photocopying the resolution
is less sharp.
He stated that as he is studing to be a Botanist he has learned, and it is generally accepted by the scientific community that continual cloning from the same strain clones weakens many other types of plants so his reasoning is that it probably takes place in weed, too.

On the surface it seems to make sense. He also states that the easy answer is to have a mother to clone from, yet, Soma, and BOG, and everyone else i read never mention the possible degredation of a strain by continual cloning of clones. Love to be enlightened here, Folks!

 

[Mr. Stinky]

ecsd and arcata would be hemp by now.

 

[Wazoo]

I didn't understand, Mr. Stinky. Could you state your reply in more laymen terms, please?

 

[Wazoo]

I think I get it. You are talking about two strains that have been cloned many many times I gather and if what that guy is saying is true these examples you gave would "be hemp by now". I can assume from that, also, that you disagree with the Dude, right?

 

[saint]

I think he means those strains would have degraded to the point of being hemp by now if that were the case.

::Edit::

seems I was a bit slow.. you got it

 

[Wazoo]

Ya, I got it, but, logically it makes sense that you would be deluting a strain with constant cloning, but, I guess, Weed is one plant that this rule doesn't apply....hopefully!

 

[CANNACO-OP]

i read no such warning on the label

 

[statusquo]

I don't understand how theoretically this makes sense (think about the concept of cloning and all that it entails). Also, how would the clone only strains still be potent if this was the case?

 

[Wazoo]

Me either, just this one guy that scared the shit out of me posting that after lots of cloning your plants turn to mush.

 

[Wazoo]

I don't understand how theoretically this makes sense (think about the concept of cloning and all that it entails). Also, how would the clone only strains still be potent if this was the case?

Could you be a little more specific, please?

 

[statusquo]

Could you be a little more specific, please?

A clone should be genetically identical to its mother plant. Where is the room for "loss of potency" since this is determined by genes. I guess you could argue that there is physical or chemical damage done to the DNA upon taking the cuttings but then why would that always result in a less potent cut. Theoretically it could be more potent or completely lack the capability to produce resin...

I am willing to have it explained to me as to how these clones could be less potent, though.

 

[saint]

I don't understand how theoretically this makes sense (think about the concept of cloning and all that it entails). Also, how would the clone only strains still be potent if this was the case?

Yea the photocopy analogy doesn't really make alot of sense to me, Photocopying is degraded by a series of transitions(pixelation,ink onto paper).Whereas cloning is the same exact plant, same genetic make up, just having a section of it reroot...Though I'm neither a school taught botanist nor a geneticist. Just my reasoning on it.

 

[Wazoo]

A clone should be genetically identical to its mother plant. Where is the room for "loss of potency" since this is determined by genes. I guess you could argue that there is physical or chemical damage done to the DNA upon taking the cuttings but then why would that always result in a less potent cut. Theoretically it could be more potent or completely lack the capability to produce resin...

I am willing to have it explained to me as to how these clones could be less potent, though.

Me too. What I am going to do is search through the threads and find this guy again and see if I can get him to explain his opinion more fully and then i will post it and send you a copy....Cool?

 

[FreshlyShaven]

I doubt it would affect the potency, but each generation of cloning usually does affect the vigor of the plant.

 

[statusquo]

Me too. What I am going to do is search through the threads and find this guy again and see if I can get him to explain his opinion more fully and then i will post it and send you a copy....Cool?

Sounds good, thank you!

I doubt it would affect the potency, but each generation of cloning usually does affect the vigor of the plant.

I think this is highly dependent on how good you are at cloning. I definitely agree that sloppy procedures and poor environment can probably easily lead to degradation over time in terms of plant vigor.

 

[Budley Doright]

Yes the photocopy example is nonsense....

I have done some cloning of fruit trees and I have parts from apple trees from the early 1800's mcintosh apple is that old....

Here is what can happen....


Here is where it could be a problem with serial cloning as I see it....

Any grow point may contain a mutation which may be bad....


If you use that grow point as a clone and select no other your plant will degrade....


however if you use several cuttings and label them.....

if you are careful that the end plant is the same as the parent plant you should in fact wind up with a perfect clone from its parent.....


remember its a clone with a very small chance for a mutation not a photocopy.....

the plant cares very little about where its roots are.....

 

[Wazoo]

I doubt it would affect the potency, but each generation of cloning usually does affect the vigor of the plant.

So, since that is true, vigor relates to several things. When you say "Vigor" are you saying it would affect yield or size, or health?

 

[cork144]

Cloning in biology is the process of producing populations of genetically-identical individuals that occurs in nature when organisms such as bacteria, insects or plants reproduce asexually.

geneticly identical individuals.

 

[Wazoo]

"however if you use several cuttings and label them.....

if you are careful that the end plant is the same as the parent plant you should in fact wind up with a perfect clone from its parent....."


Hence, when cloning I should clone way more than just a few more in case a few die i.e., maybe twice as many as i need, yes?

 

[Budley Doright]

Let me give you an example as it applies to an apple tree....


when we are talking about a mutation this is how a mutation happens....

This is the plant patent for a new apple....

its simply a mutation of the mother plant.....




BACKGROUND OF THE INVENTION
The present invention relates to a new and distinct variety of apple tree ( Malus pumila, Mill.) discovered in East Wenatchee, Wash. growing in a cultivated block of ‘Desert Rose Fuji’ (not patented). ‘Desert Rose Fuji’ is a sport of ‘BC 2 Fuji’ (not patented) apple trees. These ‘Desert Rose Fuji’ trees were growing on ‘M 26’ rootstock (not patented) planted in 1994. In the late summer (August) of 1999, I noticed on one of the ‘Desert Rose Fuji’ trees a one-inch diameter branch with four apples that had fruit with distinctly more striping and color than the fruit on the rest of the tree. This branch mutation is the origin of my new variety.

=========================================================


Now this tree had 2 distinct individuals on it.... the original tree and a branch which had mutated.....
effecting the new apples color......

however most mutations will be bad not good.....


If you take a clone from that mutated branch it will be just like that mutated branch....

however if you take it from any other branch it will be like the original plant......


If this plant was a cannabis plant..... and it had a mutated branch.....

a cutting from that branch would be like the mutated branch.....

however anywhere else on the plant would be just like the original.......


IMO this is how a mutation should occur..... only in one growpoint(future branch)

the rest should be like the original plant.....