hydro-system for micro stealth perpetual SoG's?! Share your thoughts!

[Rizzo]

Hello there, fellow growers!

First time poster, long time lurker who's got a little nut to crack...

I'm about to build a hydrosystem for my new cab. I'm aware of the different systems out there today (dwc/swc, e&f, ntf to pick a few) but haven't really found any great solutions when it comes to low volume, low noise, low height, hydrosystems.(have read about some nice grows here but none of those that I've read about fulfill all of the criteria above)

Low volume => less than 8 liter or ~2 gallon(us) per 4 plants
Low noise => less than 20dB@1m
Low height => less than 250mm or ~10" total height (reservoir included due to the stealthiness)

This is, as many of us grow with limited height and have 100% stealth in mind, something that I think would great if we could solve.

Another thing that we all want, from time to time, is to be able to leave our systems for a couple of days without pH-levels rising or falling to unacceptable levels.

So...
With the perpetual micro sog in mind... and ofc my own flowering-cab which is 50x50x85cm or ~20x20x33" [LxWxH], got 2x125w cfl's, this is my current plan.

Res.volume: 4x4 liter or 4x~1gal (450x100x100mm)(three with different nute-mixes and one for flush)
Medium: Leca/hydroton
Pots: 16x ~0,5 liter (4 pots/res)(Ø60mm L=150mm or Ø2,5" L=6")
System: Top feed system

It all would look something like >>>this<<<Those, btw, are 4x8 liter reservoirs...

Pro's: Low height (250mm or ~10"), low noise (with controlled run-off so it doesn't sound like it's raining), not as sensitive as bubblers to higher res. temps. Will be able to feed them different nutes throughout the cycle + give them a ~2 week flush at the end

Con's: Small res.volume which will, as we all know, lead to a whole lot of pH-tinkering and also higher res.temps.

Options: Well, I could lower the height of the pots to gain another 50mm in res height, which will lead to a 50% larger res (6liter or ~1.3gal)
I could skip the whole plan to raise nutrient levels over time and go for a larger res to battle pH-changes and res.temps, but that would suck dd.

Now, since I'm the kinda guy that like to measure things twice and cut once, I'd like to throw the ball over on your court, guys n gals!

I've done some grows in the past so I'm not totally "green" (although I sometimes wish my thumbs were somewhat greener).

Would love to hear from ppl like Connoiseur300, Aerohead, Scrubninja, D.I.try, Thundurkle and of course the all mighty DrBud, and others, whom have already mastered this small scale growing and/or have done a whole lot of tinkering themselves!

What are your thoughts? Got any constructive criticism? Any ace's up your sleves? Any hints, tips or tricks?

Keep up the good work! And keep on sharing it!

-Rizzo

 

[Mr. Hugeblunts]

What about NFT? You could have a low profile rubbermaid tub a la Shallow Water Culture (SWC) on top of that, pvc pipes in which nutes are pumped.

 

[Rizzo]

NFT, hmm...
Will it be able to support the whole rootmass? I figure the first couple of weeks won't be a problem, but how about the last?? I got the pic's of the roots in Connoiseur300's 30 plant DWC-post flashing before my eyes =S

Maybe if one moved the entire pipe from res #1 to res #2 and just let the roots grow freely during the whole grow, filling up the pipes...

Anyone got any exp?

 

[S-V-K]

just wanted to say that 5-6L are minimum per plant. i'm running dwc in pc case and 11L tank is packed with roots,only have 2 plants. good luck

 

[Rizzo]

What size plants are you growing?

As I'm going to do a micro sog and my thought was to keep the roots contained within the tall pots, that low vol. res. won't be a prob in terms of space to grow in.

 

[Mr. Hugeblunts]

Roots shouldnt be a problem for a micro sog, you aren't vegging too much.

 

[mg00c]

I don't have any experience with hydro but i do know that by the time my micro SOG plants are 6 weeks into flowering (from seed) the roots are pretty substantial, easily filling the bottom of 16 oz beer cups. How many plants would you add to this system at a time, 2 or 4? I don't think however that you will need to worry about root space if you're only doing 4 plants per 4 liter container. One more thing to add is that it is extremely difficult to fully muffle the sound of an air pump even if it's advertised as "virtually silent" so if this is intended to be a super stealth setup you should have something in the room to take the rap for the noise. Otherwise this is probably the easiest way to do what you want to do.

 

[Rizzo]

Thanks for your input, guys!

Mr.Hugeblunts - Sounds good, haven't really got any exp when it comes to NFT but it's something I'm gonna try some day.

mg00c - I'll be doin 1 plant/liter res.vol. and I'll try to contain the roots, whatever system this might end up as, in a tall'ish pot at around 0.5liter each.
When it comes to airpumps, I'm well aware of the noise they make, and cause of that they're out of the equation, so to speak.

 

[Rizzo]

coffeebreak pondering...

coffeebreak pondering...

So, after some thought, a cup of coffee and some tinkering in SolidWorks I present the...

Slim multi-use hydro-table

Nothing revolutionary, more like a hybrid of some of the systems shown here on ICMag, but I think this could be a good system for evaluating different techniques in a perp. SoG.

By mounting different kinds of plumbing in the different trays one could easily change this from a NFT to a E&F or the Top Feed version. One could also (not drawn) place the 90º-angle inside the trays for a aeroponic setup.

The pump you see in the res. is a regular aquariumpump (Fluval 1 plus 300l/h or ~80gal/h] which isn't sufficient ( i think) for a true aeroponic, but would do for a low pressure version.

When it comes to the pots they're there casue of something I read in one of DrBud's threads. From what I recall, and correct me if I'm wrong, he had experienced a nasty stretch when using pots larger than 3" in diameter. And since I'm limited to about 50cm or 1' 8" in height this would be the way to go.
Would be good for a NFT (kinda) version if one could contain the rootmass inside the pots and use capillary forces to feed the roots further up in the pots. This to ensure that you get a healthy flow through the tray.

Maybe perlite would be a better substrate for this "under feed" (?) version...

Rizzo

 

[grouchy]

Have you thought about hempy buckets? You could skip all the fancy pumps that make noise and just drill a hole in a couple 2 liter bottles. That would get you 8 liters for 4 plants and you could cut the bottles to the exact size you need. Hempy buckets are a passive hydro system that uses perlite to get air and water to the roots instead of pumps.

 

[slowandeasy]

Rizzo,
Not trying to be a jerk, but hydro is way different than Dr. Buds SOG. The same plants in hydro, will preform much different than pop bottles in soil. Hydro plants, and especially roots grow much faster and denser. Not trying to change your mind on doing hydro, just try not to compare sizes with a dirt set up...its like comparing apples to oranges. Roots in hydro can easily fill up a 5 gallon bucket, you cannot cram them in a small place and expect them to do well. Also rez temps and pH swings are a bitch. Just keep all of this in mind.

Looked at the size of your cab, and if you are looking for a perpetual set up in that size cab I would space out how often you harvest. Dont do it like Dr. Bud or Thunder. You are better off using 1 or 2 decent sized Rez containers. Do MWC, using a pool noodle. Just need airpump, line, stone and a pool noodle. You would be able to put more plants in the same space than your design, plus you can pull one out and put one in to replace it very easy. Basically it is a bigger version of a bubble cloner, but you use it from start to finish.
Trust me, that would be the easiest, cheapest way to do it. Small containers work great to start hydro plants, but the roots need alot more room than in dirt. Or you could do a setup like AeroHead, without the scrog if you wanted to SOG. Good luck!

 

[Rizzo]

buckets and bubblers

buckets and bubblers

To Grouchy: Yeah, I've considered the hempy buckets but those would require hand watering every other day, right. I sure love to talk to my plants and do it almost every day, but once in a while I have to leave town to work for up to 5 days. So I guess it's a pump or a wick-system and beeing kind of a tech-freak my choice was simple. =)

To Slowandeasy: Not beeing a jerk at all! I value every input! I simply don't like doing things twice so another pair of brains is never wrong. =)

So, regarding what you have to say about the growth in hydro vs soil, I'm with ya. I'm well aware of the difference in growth as I've done both in the past.
What I'm thinking is that by restricting the rootmass to the pots and nip away whatever might grow out the drains, I'll be able to keep the plants lower.
Another thing to try out is different substrates (still inert, if that's what you call a substrate with no nutes at all). By choosing a substrate that offers more resistance to rootgrowth one might be able to stun the growth even more. It still would have to drain well of course. A heavier substrate such as gravel mixed with sand, or just fine gravel, would perform rather well here, I guess.
A careless aproach would be to let the pH-swings do the stunning, but don't tell anyone I said that! XP

In short, if one keep the roots at a certain size they will only be able to support a certain amount of growth overall.

Bubblers sure are great to grow in but this one have to be as close to 100% stealth as possible. Therefore, due to the noise level, I can't use one. =(

The res. temp could be controlled with some type of chiller. It would be nice to try to do it with Peltiere-elements and a thermostat. Wouldn't have to be too expensive if we look at what volumes I'd have to cool.

"pH is a bitch"
Yeah, but every bitch is tameable, just gotta find out how! =)
One way I think one could control the pH is by adding Carbon Dioxide (CO2) to the res. The way that works is that the CO2 dissolves in the solution and form Carbonic Acid (H2CO3) This is, as one can tell by the name, acidic and by controlling the amount of CO2 injected into the res. you can control the pH.
I use this in a planted aquarium I have but measure the pH by hand, with pH-meters, and adjust by tuning in the amount of CO2 by counting bubbles/sec I release into the aquarium. In these small reservoirs the amount of CO2 would have to be tuned in by a pH-controller due to the small volume and much higher rate of water consumption and pH-swings. Connect a solenoid-valve to the CO2 supply and hopefully sit back and relax.

What I don't know about this is what level one can let the H2CO3 rise to. If I remember correctly around 60ppm is about as high a level the most fish and plants can thrive in, but does this count when it comes to CB and hydro as well? Will the CO2 levels required to control the pH simply kill the roots by cutting of part of their O2 supply?

"Don't do it like Dr.Bud and Thunder"
Hehe, I'm not. I'm just looking for similar results with hydro under circumstances given. Beeing able to harvest every 2-3 weeks.

As I wrote before I have room for trying out many different ways to grow if I go for the multi-use system, and it will be pretty easy to modify too. I could even build all four types of trays. Then I'd only have to change the tray if I want to switch between ways to grow. And, yes, Aerohead's setup is the sweetest(!) and from looking at my version one can easily see the similarities. ( Aerohead, if you happen drop by, many thanks for a very inspirational thread!!)

"the easiest, cheapest way to do it"
Hey, a challenge every once in a while is only good for your health! When it comes to what I'm prepared to pay for all this I can only say that looking back at what I've spent on smokeables up to this point in my life give me bad dreams. If I would have spent those buckaroos in a more sensible way... Heck, I could have employees doin this for me! XP

Phew, that took a while... Cya and thanks again for the input guys!

Rizzo

 

[slowandeasy]

Rizzo,
Sounds like you need invent a hydro style air pot set up. Those self pruning pots that are used in soil. Go for it, anything is possible...just have to find out what works best for you. You are right, big roots will result in big plants!
You can make your garden harvest every 2-3 weeks, it will just more difficult for you to put the amount of plants in the same space as the 20z bottles....uless you keep small roots. Sounds like you are up for a challange, and willing to spend the money to get it done right. Was not trying to tell you to do it the cheap way, but sometimes people like to KISS. Good luck on whatever you decide to do!

 

[mg00c]

you're absolutely right about containing the roots. Containing the roots is the easiest way to contain the height of your plants. Would those pots that you showed us in your sketch be able to be moved around (from one resevoir to the other) or would you just change the nutrients in each rez according to the plants. When attempting to do a compact sog like this it's useful to be able to move the plants to different areas so they're always getting light.

Another thing, I think you have some solid ideas on containing the root mass. you might wanna go with a standard medium (hydroton, perlite) all the way down until the pot becomes pourus (based on your drawing) and at the very bottom of your pot you should have a layer of root inhibiting substrate like you said. I don't think it would be a good idea to fill the whole pot with sand or gravel because you want the plant to grow but if you were to do what I suggested the plant would have time to develop and grow. And by the time the roots do reach the inhibiting layer the plant will have a good root base which will ensure good growth/budding, but at the same time you wont have to worry about trimming the roots that will pop out of the pots every single day.

 

[mg00c]

http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=109364&do=filter&fid=17219

You may wanna take a look at that only because there aren't many micro, hydro, 12/12 from seed grows floating around out there. That thread is a good reference even though there isn't that much information about his whole setup; the pictures do the talking and it's similar to what you want to do.

 

[virago420]

I also like the idea of doing the hempy buckets. And when your going away for work you could just use a drip system for watering or better yet have a reservoir and a pump that runs on a timer that would turn on for just the right amount of time to pump the amount of nutes needed into the hempy containers every 2 days. Just my

 

[Rizzo]

Never used them but sure...

Never used them but sure...

Ahh, this I like!!

To Slowandlow: Thanks! Heard of, but never used them self pruning pots but they sure seem interesting! Here's a link to their homepage and how they work.
Maybe one could do a DIY-version by taking two different sized plastic pipes. Drill the same hole pattern in both with a slight off-set from eachother then slip the larger pipe over the smaller one and create a similar effect to the Air-pot. Another thing to put on the to-do list

To Mg00c: With the right kind of fittings between the pumps and the trays I'd be able to move them from one res. to another with minimal effort. I will aslo be able to move the pots around in each tray. If you look at the cab I've choose to position the lights at different heights. The most obvious reason is that I can't adjust the heigt of the individual trays if I want to build the res. like in the picture. Another reason is that I'll be able to utilize more unreflected light from the cfl's by letting the lower lamp act as a side light for the larger plants and as a regular light for the newest clones.
What you said about different layers of substrates is a great idea! If one take notes I bet this could be an alternative way to tune in the finishing height of the plants by adjusting the volume off low resistance substrate. Always flower at the same height but alter the depth of the perlite/hydroton...

To Virago420: Yeah, they would require some kind of automated watering. I figure it's another method for me to try. Could make "hempy pots" by adjusting where to put the drain-holes and implement them into the system. Maybe this could be a way to battle the pH-swings in the res. since you wouldn't have to water the plants as often as with other systems. Then you would run the nutes through the pots fewer times thus minimizing the pH-swings by simply lowering the frequency with which you drain run-off into the res. There will still be changes due to evaporation and other factors, but... Then again, the perlite/vermiculite-mixused in those buckets might be sufficient to lower the freq. for the other systems aswell. A 3:1 ratio is common practice here, right?!

 

[grouchy]

Someone just posted a diy air pot the other day on here. It was made out of the anti slip rubber drawer liners for toolboxes.

Air pots - http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=138052&highlight=air+pots

 

[Rizzo]

Thanks Grouchy! I'll have to watch how things turn out for Zappa66. I dont know where to get any material like that around here (swedish countryside) but I'll be sure to keep my eyes open the next time I'm out shopping for this project.

 

[grouchy]

If they work out well you could order them from the link in the other thread