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LED Lab 2009

U

unthing

bumps


Hi guys, been trying to think few things, but more just wondering.

The hydroled that got banned because advertising had interesting ideas to hit both peaks of chlorophyll a and b in red and blue, so there's 4 bands. Not to mention those 60 degree lenses helping penetration. I quess both of these things are already mentioned in this thread.

Chorophylls are helped out with supplementary proteins that catch the light between their peak absortion of red and blue, throw in ir and uv in certain bands for ensuring efficiency and small stress to produce more resin. So there's another 3 bands the third being somekind of white.

So, total of 7 at this point and billyjimbob has had interesting experiments with amber (590 nm), maybe amber hit some suppelementing protein peak? Phycobilisomes was it they (smartish people)called those(Edit : well only algae and cyanobacteria have these, stupid). I really don't know about plant biology and such, but this topic is making me keen to visit local university's agriculture and biology department with stupid questions about photosystems in plants.

I know my wonderings are somewhat badly and fuzzily written, and I'll try to explain more detailed if there's any interest. Just hoping that some of the gurus might chime in again.

What the ideal ratio? are we nearing it? . How much more is to it than amber+blue+red+white and tiny bits of uv and ir with something like 1:1:1:6 of a+b+w+r ratio and proper amount of photons. Better suggestions?
 
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Unthing, the problem with determining the ratio is also energy efficiency of particular LEDs as well as the role of blu light in plant growth. As knna pointed out in the beginning of this thread:
About LEDs to use, blue light efficacy for grow is vastly overstated. But the fact is it induces very low photosynthetic response, compared to red. Blue is required for health grow, but using more of what is strickly required for cannabis is just a waste of electricity.

Plants perform better when receiving light along all the PAR range. Cool White LEDs (CW) are good at it, giving enough blue,green and yellow. Simple CW plus red leds combinations are giving the best results, in terms of dry yield per uE. If wanting to reduce green and yellow on the overall spectrum, just adding some blues to reach the minimun blue content and reducing some CW are able to get strong red with a decent blue peak and some of the rest of the wavelenghts.

Nobody knows the spectrum distribution at what cannabis perform better. Ive found very little feedback of other LED growers about this esential topic on the last years, so i doubt it is going to change in the future. Too much economic interests, thought. Actually we dont know more about this than 3 years ago (apart of the obvious fact that red+blue mixed dont perform well, specially at the bloom stage).

When selecting LEDs, the most important is their energy efficiency (fraction of the burned watts that they emit as light), not peak wavelenght. 660nm leds use old AlGaAsP technology, that reach 22% efficiency on best cases (at 350mA). While AlInGap leds emiting on lower wl reach efficiencies of 30% (35% more light per watt burned) and increasing (660nm efficiency is stopped long ago). As using 640nm vs 660nm have a photosinthetic efficacy difference below 10% (actually, close to 5%), it seems a bad idea using 660nm.
I'm afraid we will have to determine the ratio by trial and error.
Right now I'm planing a 2 sq foot cab with 50w UFO (7:2 630nm:470 nm) and 20 wats of 590nm at 45 degree angle. I'm also thinking of maybe adding additional 20 watts of red and blue as angled light.
 
U

unthing

Yeah, he pointed it out, but I'm kinda stubborn/stupid and want to be answered many times from slightly different angles :D. And you're right about trial and error, but there seems to be some hope of advancing.

Personally I'm not that interested in the blue, just as something around 10 percent of it at decent efficiency in the proper(ish) band is in the ratio I'm satisfied with that end of spectrum. Wish I could undestand what they're talking about in the cannabiscafe-forums (and if you know other forums with led-discussions in english, post links).

It's the yellow/red/white ratios that I'm wondering, and that amber peak of yellow band seems to be doing something. Billybob had this hypothetical ratio with lots of orange too few pages back. And the flower king hps has a lot of yellow, also a lot of raw power so to speak.

At this point, I think that this thread should be made sticky for the micro forum as something to look for in the future if they're not yet convinced. And maybe summarized fringe science faq-page too? Remember those OG-threads about lightcycles and pruning leafs and so on?
 
M

mrred

that 100w led cost less than 100 dollars, pretty good deal i think, i dont know these guys get off chargeing 1500 for shit when its really like 200max from china
 
L

LowGrow

Ok I am buying new grow lights really soon and after years of deliberation I have decided to try this led light http://hydro-grow-led.com/blog/full-spectrum-126w-grow-light/ and use 5 20 watt full spectrum compact floros by ottlighthttp://www.ottlite.com/p-267-plant-growth-bulb-10-pk-bundle.aspx


These lights will be going into a 3'long by 2' 5" 4'high. I do not like hps and will never plug those nasty things in again as they don't target my key concerns about lighting. Efficiency, heat production, and safety. I remote ballasted my own 150 watt and 70 watt hps and lost sleep wondering if my house was going to burn down..... i know that I can wire up leds but I am intimidated i don't want to pay this much for that led grow light would it be cheaper to build my own? If so I want this set up to be at least par with a 400 hps and I think the full spectrum compacts just might do the trick with a homade led panel. I have already wasted my moneys on 4 of those cheap crappy grow panels... they keep my moms happy with 1 cfl in there i guess so I can't complain to much. Anyway thanks alot in advance for any suggestions I am giving all you guys karma for doing the community a service and really exploring the possabillities of leds they have been racking my brain for years as to whiether they are worth the trouble and now thanks to you I will be part of the process and will follow up on my grows very well. This is only my third grow and I haven't exactly had the most sucessfull crops(my fault) so bear with me but i am in for the ride leds and floros or bust :abduct:
 
L

LowGrow

I gave all the rep I could. Keep up the good work so i don't have this problem:wallbash::wallbash::wallbash: because i have a hard time making sense of all this electrical stuff with leds and im not a de de de either its just hard stuff lol:joint::woohoo:
 
M

mrred

i would save my money or just buy for 400hps if you want 400hps results

rigging leds could start a fire too, but normally if you hook them up wrong they just explode

IMO a led system is gotta have at least 15-20+watt leds because of penetration

if i was to build one i'd go back a few pages and see what that guy with the big buds used for leds
 

Weezard

Hawaiian Inebriatti
Veteran
'splode?!

'splode?!

i would save my money or just buy for 400hps if you all you want is 400hps results.

rigging leds could start a fire too, but normally if you hook them up wrong they just explode

Um, you are mistaken, that is incorrect.

IMO a led system is gotta have at least 15-20+watt leds because of penetration

if i was to build one i'd go back a few pages and see what that guy with the big buds used for leds

You might want to browse cdot for correct information on LEDs

Aloha,

Weezard
 
M

mrred

it does mean something, the only reason you dont see more higher wattaged is because the efficiently isnt there yet

99 watts of 3 watt leds isnt going be able to penetrate as good as a 100watt led will be able to.
 

Oldmac

Member
99 watts of 3 watt leds isnt going be able to penetrate as good as a 100watt led will be able to.

Maybe, and maybe not. What you see even with say the 40w LED is actually many, many lower watt LEDs mounted together in one package. That does not equate to more penertration.

If you want to use LEDs you need to take into account the limitations they have and grow accordingly, SOG being the best solution. So many growers want to grow big indoors and that is just not effiecent with any type of artifical light. My philosiphy for indoor growing is very simple, I only want to grow buds. Big stalks, multiple branches and the associated leaves that go with them all take time (electric) and time is money. Besides I'm going to throw all of that away anyhow, I just want the buds.

BTW: there are already some very good LED grow lights available off the shelf. The best IMHO is Theroreme Innovation's lights. I've been using 2 of the Smart Lamp 600s w/Pro-Bloom option (for over a year now) and they have the best light spectrum of anything out there. 150 diodes; 105red, 18blue, 15white, and 12 "proprietary" (some UVb, IR etc). 2 of these @ 330w ea for 660w total hold there own against 1000w HPS with almost 500w savings when you include the ballast. I know cause I've grown with them side by side.

I also have a home built LED/T5 hybred that totals 740w (wo/T5 ballast) that out produces the 1kw HPS it replaced. I've been using that light now almost 2 years. LEDs have a ways to go, you can see what's happening in the general lighting area, that's where the real gains are being made. It will just take time for the better LED technology to trickle down to our horticulture niche market.
 
it does mean something, the only reason you dont see more higher wattaged is because the efficiently isnt there yet

99 watts of 3 watt leds isnt going be able to penetrate as good as a 100watt led will be able to.
As it was stated above, those high wattage leds are really just arrays of 1-5w leds. Of course, penetration is a problem, but you have to treat led lighting differently from hps - you hang your hps in the grow room, and that is pretty much it. However, Because leds emit so much less heat, you can use them as side lighting and angled lights.
In the box I'm currently designing, the main light is 50w UFO clone, with 20watts of 590 nm yellow as angled light, and the more I think about it, putting in some reds and blues on the side makes more and more sense. It will cover surface of about 2.5 square feet, and I don't plan on using more than 100w of LED.
This experiment is limited by my financial considerations so I have to use cheap chinese LEDs.
 

Irie_Lion

Free up the Herbs....Let the Sacrament grow!
Veteran
hey whats up icmag fam...I had a few questions on led lights and hopefully someone can help me out. A friend of mine is insisting on buying a supernova led lamp from hid hut....I dont want him to be wasting his money but is there any chance that lamp will produce decent yields to how they compare it to a 600w or even a 1k? He wants to do a sog style with it since it doesnt seem like it will grow trees very well. Can anyone pls point me to some links or info ppl who have used this for mj ? What kind of yields can one expect from a setup using this light for flower and veg. I have tried searching the forums but can't find much info on it. Personally I told him to stick with HIDs for now and play with the leds later once the price reduces some but he is really ready to shell out the $$ for it.....should I stop him? any input appreciated thanks!
 

islander420

Member
LED's suck and it's a waste of money just for supplemental lighting. I'd rather spend the money on another HID. Go with a full spectrum bulb if you want....

For the moment, this LED lighting is just a fad thats all hyped up by marketing. The costs far outweigh the benefits.

Bottom Line : MORE LUMENS = MORE WEIGHT.....quite playing with Christmas lights!!! LOL :)

I noticed the growers using LED's are usually newbie's, while the old timers stick with what works and what's proven.

I'm sure the next best thing will be bicycle reflectors......... LOL
 

islander420

Member
hey whats up icmag fam...I had a few questions on led lights and hopefully someone can help me out. A friend of mine is insisting on buying a supernova led lamp from hid hut....I dont want him to be wasting his money but is there any chance that lamp will produce decent yields to how they compare it to a 600w or even a 1k? He wants to do a sog style with it since it doesnt seem like it will grow trees very well. Can anyone pls point me to some links or info ppl who have used this for mj ? What kind of yields can one expect from a setup using this light for flower and veg. I have tried searching the forums but can't find much info on it. Personally I told him to stick with HIDs for now and play with the leds later once the price reduces some but he is really ready to shell out the $$ for it.....should I stop him? any input appreciated thanks!

Don't waste his or your $$$$. LEDS will not compare to HID's. You'd get a better harvest with floro's.

I'm sure the LED's look cool when you're all baked... :)
 

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