GH General Organics

[maryjohn]

a precise mix is actually what you want, you dont want to be running something that you dont know how to dose because it comes different everytime.

you were doing good up until the mycos give em superpowers part. they are just like any other additive theyll only push them so far as well, and with salts, or chlorinated water your not doing anything by adding the mycos or beneficials cause that shit just kills them

seriously where are you guys coming up with this shit? oaksterdam needs to get some quality teachers

first off, define "precise mix". Precise based on what? What is needed in the soil at hand? Some arbitrary ratio? Total volum? Mass? Makes no sense to call premixed nutes precision anything unless you are doing hydro.

Second, not to condescend, but do some research. Tap water is not a problem for mycorhizzae in most cases. And you don't seem to know what they are. Not all mycos are root symbiotes, and the mycrrhizal fungi do indeed trade super powers for a bit of sugar. I kid you not. Nature is fascinating. Want to see some crazy superpowers from fungal interaction? Check out the corpse flower. It's like an undead plant, and its super power is the ability to grow without photosynthesis. For mj, the super duper power is the ability to make tons of flowers with barely any phosphorous. You can see how such a SUPER POWER would help one species outcompete another. Nature. Check it out.

For your last point, let's discuss the science, not our backgrounds. I
not that interesting man. The topic at hand is much more fascinating.

 

[Omerta]

john, when someone says precise in regards to nutrients it typically means the precision of the ratios of each paticular nutrient that that formula contains. what soils need is a whole different discussion, total volume or mass is going to be the same a gallon is a gallon. as to that hydro remark, hydro and soil both require precision. whether your gunna mix your nutrients in a reservoir hook it to a pump and flood a table or mix it in a watering pale and hand water your soil beds, the specific plants nutrient requirements dont change

now to explain what i meant by precision to give you a better understanding. bottle grow contains this precise nutrient analysis 1-0-1. you know precisely what your getting in that same grow bottle every time. so on monday of august when i buy that grow bottle im getting that same nutrient analysis of 1-0-1 as i would if i bought it on a friday in december. organics made by yourself will almost never be like that, since we as plain old mary johns dont have access to equiptment that will provide us with precise readouts of what we are making

mycorrhiza do have a problem with tap water because mycos are a living fungus and tap water contains chlorine along with other chemicals that kill anything living in the water. beneficials usually arent fully effective with tap water that contains chlorine. they have no super powers they simply colonize on the roots acting as extensions in exchange for the sugar/carbs you mentioned.

plants are fascinating and to get a better understanding a botany/horticulture/agriculture course is advised

 

[CT Guy]

ive yet to see any organic product crystalize like that fox farm stuff which is NOT organic (other then maybe molasses)

i doubt they put any harmful chemicals in this shit

a precise mix is actually what you want, you dont want to be running something that you dont know how to dose because it comes different everytime.

your actually right a plant wont produce beyond its potential but you can push it to that potential with different products, organics arent gunna push them to the limit in terms of yield but outdoors or anywhere your trying to build soil for the long run its always ideal to use organics. you were doing good up until the mycos give em superpowers part. they are just like any other additive theyll only push them so far as well, and with salts, or chlorinated water your not doing anything by adding the mycos or beneficials cause that shit just kills them

seriously where are you guys coming up with this shit? oaksterdam needs to get some quality teachers

From working with a lot of giant pumpkin growers, I've learned a lot about the history of their sport, and these guys are just as fanatical as you guys when it comes to growing.

Here's something you may find interesting. Up until the last 5 years, all the world record holders were using chemicals. They hit a wall just over 1,000 lbs. and it wasn't until some of them switched over to using organics and biological amendments again that they were able to push additional growth. The "chemical" pumpkins ended up splitting or having disease problems, while the "organic" ones were much healthier and were able to keep growing right up 'til the weigh off. In fact, the world record (Joe Jutras 1689 lbs.) from 2007 was grown using a combination of organics, compost tea, and some chemicals.

I attribute this success to the soil biology. In order to maximize growth, the proper biology needs to by in place to cycle the proper nutrients and minerals to the plant in the form it most prefers. This is also a way for the plant to regulate it's intake, rather than you just dumping whatever chemical in whatever amount you deem necessary. Humans can guess at what a plant needs, but much better to let it control it's feeding cycle based on the exudates it's releasing to the microbes in the soil.

 

[Omerta]

you got it ct

developing the plants infrastructure if you will (roots and sturdy stems that result) is the start they need, you then begin to pump them with girth giving additives when theyre ready to handle them. soil building is very important but indoors since cycles are finished very quick in the greater scheme its not as practical.

indoors im a refined nutrient guy, i dont fuck with organics at all, but outdoors i use lots of organic tea, and plenty of beneficial bacteria/fungi. i will feed with res water from my indoor but only if whats in there fits what it needs at the time.


back to gh's general organics? im planning on running this stuff almost how they reccomend on the feed chart with my own tweaks of course, and ontop of what they reccomend ill be using florablend, floranectar and all those subcultures i got from them as well. i doubt this stuff is available for immediate uptake so im gunna have to see as i go on how often it will be fed. its very concentrated for an organic liquid, max it calls for is 10ml per gallon on any of the bottles

 

[baet]

habeeb what you said makes no sense, come to think of it all 3 of you made no sense.

fox farm is NOT organic, its grow bottle contents crystalize, big bloom is the only one out of the lineup that is organic.

general organics isnt omri listed but its all organic, and unless you have the machinery and untold time and resources (which wont be cheaper) to get all the exact nutrient values of your own sourced nutrients just right, then i doubt youll be running your own sourced nutrients in any effective way.

does anyone have anything valueable to say on ghs general organics line?

PS im no organic freak i run GH flora all day, im just looking for some other worthwhile feedback on the organic stuff i got from the general

i was never saying FF is organic, obviously its not, look at the ingrediants, i was just saying its a little more expensive than FF ... i use ageoldorganics booyah. get off our nuts

edit: why did you start this thread? you knew your were gonna try these nutes out anyways. was it to disprove everyone you "think" you know more than? sorry im in a bad mood, keep your smug comments to yourself next time people reply to your thread.

 

[maryjohn]

Omertà that is just bullshit, sorry. And plenty of people have great mj and other plants without ever dumping nutes on their plants.

Your assertion that a microherd can't operate in perpetuity with limited space is unsuported and ludicrous, and please explain how I brew em with straight tap water while a microherd cannot survive despite being surrounded by reactive matter that can and does bind to the chlorine gas. And mycorhizae are tough. I have personally seen plentiful root extensions in 8" pots watered with tap water unbubbled. To be fair I have no chloramine in my tap water.

Where o where are you getting this info? If it's the hydro store you are showing grow freakonomics quite clearly. I'm only getting more committed to my proselytizing, even if it's just me and clack.

Read again what CT guy said, with an open mind. It could not be clearer. Get a good soil with good biology, and forget about all this npk business. It's not even an appropriate label for the products you are using. Edit: in case you are wondering why it's there, it is a labeling requirement for all fertilizers, with rules and measures dating back to the green revolution, which was the heyday of synthetic farm products.

I'm not actually expecting to change your mind, but all you lurkers out there trying to get started, don't believe the hype. You don't need a single product with good graphic design. Selling fertilizer should not have the kind of margin to justify the cost.

 

[baet]

^^ i like that mary.

a family friend of mine who grows the most potent, complex, quality bud ive ever come to know, fertilizes with llama poop, guano and compost, with fertile worm casting soil he makes, genetics take care of the rest. he mite throw in some other organic ammendments he finds in the garden. but never does he use bottled nutrients. i guess the secret he says is in the llamas poop...

im not trying to disprove you omerta and that previous statement has nothing to do quite with what your saying, i just appreciate the fertile simplicity of organics that can be achieved with dirt cheap amendments and healthy soil.

 

[baet]

now to explain what i meant by precision to give you a better understanding. bottle grow contains this precise nutrient analysis 1-0-1. you know precisely what your getting in that same grow bottle every time. so on monday of august when i buy that grow bottle im getting that same nutrient analysis of 1-0-1 as i would if i bought it on a friday in december. organics made by yourself will almost never be like that, since we as plain old mary johns dont have access to equiptment that will provide us with precise readouts of what we are making

plants are fascinating and to get a better understanding a botany/horticulture/agriculture course is advised

precise NPK readouts are bullshit, especially when dealing with organics. throw some shit in a bubbler make sum tea, with exact measurments of each ammendment, and theres some precision for you, not perfect but your plant is not going to care, and will most likely flourish compared to a bottle of liquid nute thats been sitting on the shelves overpriced. and whats with the obcession with precision? your plant isnt gonna freak out when its used to 1-0-1 then gets a dose of .9-0-.9... also the NPK rating is a measurment of the percentage of those nutrients that are available by volume. NPK is irrelevent in organics.

 

[CT Guy]

To jump back in on this one. I guess my main point is that you can grow with chemicals, but you're going to hit a wall. There are numerous reasons for switching to organics. These range from who you're giving your money to, cost, nutrition, environmental damage, etc...

Organics will give you an overall healthier plant that will be more resistant to disease and stress vectors.

All that being said, if you're not fully committed to strictly using organics, you may or may not get some benefit from light nutrient applications (blasphemy, I know). It's definitely not necessary and not something I promote, BUT it has borne out some benefit for the giant pumpkin community (though many of the top growers are now strictly organic).

I don't think light chemical applications have a huge detrimental effect on the microherd, and the plant may benefit from the NPK. I think you get into trouble when you start using heavier application rates (closer to what they recommend on the bottle).

Hmmmm.....maybe I'm starting a war here, we'll see...

If it were me, I'd get rid of the chemical nutes and forget about NPK, and focus on the soil....

Good luck! And listen to the people in this forum, a lot of them have been doing this a long time and have had great success using organic methods.

Cheers,
CT

 

[maryjohn]

Ct you aren't supposed to say that lol.

But I agree the microherd is not as fragile as recently implied.

 

[Omerta]

how on earth can npk not be relevant? those numbers pretty damn accurate, that is why they are REQUIRED by law to post them before products can be released.

try throwing stuff with npk values you dont know at your plants and see what happens.

baet i started the thread to see if anyone else has tried or had any experience with the new line, i knew i would be running it but i wanted to get some feedback on it. when people say dumb ridiculous shit i feel the need to post a rebuttal before the thread is overtaken with a ton of ridiculous shit that seems so prevalent here lately. a few people know who i am, i had plenty of lber threads, i imagine i know what im talking about or it could just be the cheese that makes me ramble

 

[dongle69]

As you have found, it is sacred ground here in the organic forum.
You are not allowed to use bottled nutrients.
You are only allowed to use what the elite say you can use, or you will be mocked.
Get out while you can or you will be suffocated by smug.

 

[Hella THC]

Hey Omerta!

Just wanted to let you know that I picked up the 5 part GO line for my first grow (Grow, Bloom, Bio Weed, Bio Root, and CaMg+). Considering it's my first grow, I have nothing to compare it to, but I figure it's worth a shot!

Feel free to keep in contact with me if you need a guinea pig before you decide to run their line up.

Best,

- Hella

 

[maryjohn]

I wouldn't confuse disagreement with statements of fact an orchestrated attack on those who use bottled nutes. That's a cheap political diversion. You are among friends and anonymous at the same time, so enjoy it.

Omerta if you are at all interested, and I'm sure you are, we can talk about the many ways to grow without considering npk and the wonderful results you can achieve. And no, I don't use npk for any crops whatsoever, and In the summer I never buy veggies.

Npk is a labelling system required for any product that is sold as a fertilizer. It's the law. That does not mean it makes sense or is helpful for organic amendments. Most of the P your plant will access from a cup of bone meal is not given in the rating. It is sequestered as a stable compound that needs to be broken down by bacteria to work. At the root level, if you could measure it, you would see tiny flows of P made available to your a
plant on demand by soil biology. Organic amendments by definition cannot be accurately described with NPK ratings. That's a fact.

The idea that you don't need to regulate intake through intervention, which was CT guy's point which you missed, is older than npk ratings. How do you suppose people ate before the green revolution and factory farms?

As I have attempted to remind everyone, this is not an attack on a person, it's a discussion of methods. To anyone who disagreed with what us said by others, please don't act like a martyr just because people disagree with you. It's not personal and it might not hurt to think about your assumptions.

Good conversation, let's not keep it impersonal and centered on the facts.

 

[YosemiteSam]

Hopefully someone who has actually tried the product will answer the question. I to would love to know what is actually required in this line to produce suitable results.

What interests me is the possibility of running this organic formula on my mother plants (credit where credit is due, this is Rosy Cheek's fine idea) to avoid long term build of of salts in my coco and then using mineral salts for a while after taking clones to reestablish growth.

A product in a bottle or two from a company I have total respect for would suit me fine. And it would suit me even finer knowing the NPK along with some of the micros.

 

[baet]

I wouldn't confuse disagreement with statements of fact an orchestrated attack on those who use bottled nutes.

im not smug, but i do realize there is a lot of self righteousness on the organic forums. i was slightly upset because everyone who was giving in input was just disproved, which i felt was rude and pointless because he was disproving pointless stuff.
i happen to use bottled age old organic and EJ, as well as dry ammendments. and for some one who wants good results with less work i would advise a cheap bottle of organic nute, like ageold, or fish emulsion or EJ.
i do like bottled nutes, there fast and easy.
i got a little into the disagreement when, precise NPK readouts of organics become the topic of debate. you want a nute with NPK available, but the precise readouts and the numbers are almost irrelevant. idk im done its was pointless to argue

 

[baet]

baet i started the thread to see if anyone else has tried or had any experience with the new line, i knew i would be running it but i wanted to get some feedback on it. when people say dumb ridiculous shit i feel the need to post a rebuttal before the thread is overtaken with a ton of ridiculous shit that seems so prevalent here lately. a few people know who i am, i had plenty of lber threads, i imagine i know what im talking about or it could just be the cheese that makes me ramble

^^ im done...

 

[darookie2000]

how on earth can npk not be relevant? those numbers pretty damn accurate, that is why they are REQUIRED by law to post them before products can be released.

try throwing stuff with npk values you dont know at your plants and see what happens.

baet i started the thread to see if anyone else has tried or had any experience with the new line, i knew i would be running it but i wanted to get some feedback on it. when people say dumb ridiculous shit i feel the need to post a rebuttal before the thread is overtaken with a ton of ridiculous shit that seems so prevalent here lately. a few people know who i am, i had plenty of lber threads, i imagine i know what im talking about or it could just be the cheese that makes me ramble

I use a number of products with NPK numbers on them that are only there because it's WAY easier to sell fertilizer than it is to sell biologicals. I am using canna's bio line right now, and I have not taken out my pH or ppm meter this entire grow (I also am not measuring very carefully - I use a syringe to meter out my nutes and the numbers wear off after a while so I have to guess a bit). The fact is, in an organic grow, you are really spending most of your energy feeding the beneficials in your medium and making sure that they are happy and absorbing nutrients effectively. NPK matters if you are jamming the nutrients directly into the plant (or only using the soil as a storage mechanism to release nutrients into the plant). Basically, the difference with organics is that you are maintaining a biological system as opposed to force-feeding nutrients into the plant.

I am going to be adding a small amount of synthetic nutrients in a limited window, in order to get a little extra yield - I'm not a die-hard organics guy, but I definitely like the ease. In that case, I will be watching carefully to make sure I don't burn my plants, but the only thing that has been causing burn on this grow is the lights - the plants sometimes grow so fast that I don't move the lights up in time

Once I started treating the soil more like a living thing and feeding it more than I worried about forcing nutrients into the plants, I noticed that pH and ppm (and NPK numbers) became much less of a concern.

 

[Omerta]

you mention earthjuice, the owner of earth juice is big on those npk readouts, man is on the board of omri and knows his shit better then anyone ive met. speaking to him he would personally tell you the npk readouts are very important in a bottled nutrient organic or not.

when your talking trace amounts or teas that act as a catalyst for soil life more then a nutrient, your completely right. its hard to overdose your plants feeding them organic brews but hit them with the wrong guanos a little too hard and your gunna wish you knew a general analysis for whatever you just nuked your plants with.

you can go on about organics for a while but i dont know as much about straight organics as some, i only fuck with organics outdoors. now if you wanna talk refined minerals we can do that but id like to hear about general organics, come on work with me here...

hella-thc, id like to know how often you plan on feeding with the stuff and what your planned feeding regiment looks like so far. also how come no bio bud, thats your p boost right there? also what did they charge, i havent seen the stuff in stores yet

 

[Philosophelon]

HAHAHAHA!!!!! People on the internet, man. Maybe you should have asked in the hydro forum, Omerta, or even the organic hydro forum -- those organic soil types can be a little hostile if yer not part of the cult . Ordinarily I wouldn't double post like this, but since this thread has gone three pages without a relevant answer to the first question, I'm gonna post the same thing I just posted in another General Organics thread. Note that I've never tried GO (or much else) in soil.

Back when I was still working at a grow shop, my friend/coworker and I had a chance to test this stuff in unfinished form (summer of '08ish) -- GH sent us samples of their GO line while they were still testing it (all they let us test were the grow and bloom -- none of the other additives -- and they wouldn't tell us what was in them). We ran 'em in a coco recirculating drip system, to make sure they were recirculating and dripper compatible. We ran into calcium deficiencies (using RO water) -- and just added calcium nitrate to fix the problem, because we didn't have their CaMg+ to use. The veg and bloom worked OK, but nothing worth switching to. The biggest downside was huge pH swings (it skyrocketed overnight after we pH/topped off the res).

I'm curious to know how well the finished product line works, as I recently tried the General Organics CaMg+ supplement, and I f'ing love it. It doesn't lower my pH a shitload or have any calcium carbonate precipitate like other CaCO3 sol'ns that I've tried, it's pH-stable in my res, it gets along better with the other elements than Ca(NO3)2 -- and it doesn't have any nitrogen in it, which is essential if I have a calcium deficiency in flower.