Young plants Yellowing from center - Aeroflo-Pictures-Report.

[ultima]

I just put my seedlings into the Aeroflo two days ago.
Transplanted from Jiffy pucks , went smooth.
Roots went crazy , seemed to love their new home.
Now the plants are turning yellow, from the center outwards.
New growth is completely yellow.
Then again this could be normal , when you move to aero and start the nutes ? Transplant shock ?

Looking at infirmary pictures I can only find one picture that looks like my plants and thats one where the temperatures went too low.
That should not be the case here.

My variables: I just transplanted . I just turned on the Hps , they had been under the 250 w Cfl. The humidity is very low at about 20% after they went from my cupboard to the tent.
Also - although my tent is mylar , there's this *apparently* pvc bottom liner ...might be gassing , I dont know?

Tap water is Ph 8 , Ec 0.1 .
Lucas ratios bring the Ec to 0.4 or 256 ppm (Oakton/Eutech Ec 0.1=64ppm and the ph to about 7. Ph down to 5.5 * Ph testdrops , no meter.90 Liter res .

Had problems mixing res , went with quarter Lucas which resulted in 0.6 Ec , so I took out 40 liters of the 90 and replaced with tap water bringing it to 0.4- from there I needed some Ph down to bring it to 5.5-8.

Ph seems stable at about 5.8 - 6-ish and the Ec rises to 0.5 as the water level drops by about 3 liters , when I add three liters Ph adjusted water it hits 0.4 again.

250w Cfl and 600 w Hps, in a tent.

Let me know if i can give better info. Hope somone can help.

HYDROPONICS/Aero Ponics/Coco/Soiless/

How long has this problem been going on? 2 Days
Are you growing in a PVC grow tent? (example: Hydrohut or any other non brand tents) Growing in a Mylar Tent -Although it has what seems to be a pvc bottom liner
What system are you running? (DWC? Ebb flow? Aero? Water Farm? Flood Tables? and so on...) Aeroflo 20
What STRAIN are you growing? White Widow+Jack Flash
What was the establishing technique? (Were the seed or clone?) Seed
What is the age of your plants? 2 weeks
How long have they been in there mixture they are in now?(coco,soiless etc..) 3 days
How tall are the plants? 1-2 Inches
What PHASE are the plants in? (seedling, vegetative or flower) are the plants in? Seedling
What Technique are you using? Aeroflo+ Lucas
What substrate/medium are you using?(Hydroton, RockWool etc.)Hydroton
What is the Water temperature? 22 Degrees Celsius
What color are your roots? White? Brown? Are your roots slimy? White and superclean looking
What Nutrient's are you using?(If growing soiless) GH 3 Part-using micro and bloom
How much of each nutrient are you using with how much water?Lucas ratios to get 0.4 Ec with 90 liters.

What order are you mixing your nutrients? (example: veg nutes 1st, bloom 2nd ect) Micro , mix then Bloom
What is the TDS/EC/PPM you are using? 0.4 Ec = 256 ppm
What is the pH of the "Tank"? 6
Are you sure your calibration is correct on your equiptment? Pretty sure..its new?
When was your last watering? Have added 3 liters Ph adjusted water per day-just under a gallon per day -total 6 liters.
What is your water temps? 22 degrees Celsius
When was your last feeding change? (ie. grow-bloom-micro-additional) NONE
How often do you clean your system: example: Flush out water replace with clean water and nutrients? NONE-Just started
What size bulb are you using? One 250 watt Cfl + 600 Hps.
What is the distance to the canopy? Was 90 cm yesterday, moved to 70 centimeters today - 600 watt Cooltube.
What is your RH Factor(Relative Humidity)? VERY LOW - might be my problem , stays at LOW on my meter which is apparently just below 20 %
What is the canopy temperature? 28 Degrees Celsius.
What is the Day/Night Temp? (Include flucutaion range) NO night yet
What is the current Air Flow? (cfm etc.) The airflow is great, planty of fresh air and exhaisted outside.
Tell us about your ventilation, intake exhaust and when its running and not running ? Intake is an open window at the moment -although i built a box around the window for stealth , there´s good airflow. Exhaust is always running.
Is the fan blowing directly at plants? A small fan is pretty much blowing directly on the plants,
Is your water HARD or SOFT? Soft ? - Ph 8 , 0.1 Ec
What water are you using? Tap
Are you using water from a water softener? NO
Has plant been recently pruned, cloned off of or pinched .NO, but recently transplanted to aero.
Have any pest chemicals been used? If so, What and When? NO
Are plant's infected with pest's NO

This Jack has yellow spots but its the only one with the spots.


This is my widow.

Another widow.

Another Yellow one.


more


Looking at the pictures they might not look to bad but they definitely went pale on me - and heavy yellow to the naked eye.

 

[csharper]

While I have no experience with aero, I suspect your nutrient solution is too weak for week two. I usually start at .9, then when I see this kind of yellowing (although not so bad), I go to 1.4-1.5. That is in ebb and flow - not sure if aero needs less but it will be tough to do Lucas if it does.

I will mention, you shouldn't be using ph down, as per Lucas's instructions, and especially with that water you have. I know its 100% possible with no hitches for you because I have the same water basically (.06ec).

You may want to read the Ask Lucas thread, or I also recently summarized the important concepts: http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=133766.

 

[ultima]

I forgot to mention that i have two non- yellow plants.
They are smaller and might be happy with the nutrient level...?
Funnily enough my instincts told me the nutes were too low but I got advice to keep it at around 250 ppm ?

I read the Lucas thread , should read it again! I'm trying to learn very fast, kinda reached the point where everything cancels out , lots of contradicting posts.

So , no ph adjustments for res? Let the nutes bring down the PH ,I guess.
What about the addback water ? That should be adjusted to the same Ph as the res -after nutes , right ?

I´ll bring up the Ec and keep on reading.

Thanks a lot for your help.

 

[csharper]

X EC = Y PH, where X and Y are constant

So your addback will contain just the amount of nutes to bring the ec back up to X, or if the res is over X, addback is plain water/no adjustment, which in either case brings you back to X EC = Y PH.

 

[ultima]

Flushed the res. fresh water , bumped the Ec up to 0.8 , no ph down and the ph is sitting at 6.5.
No apparent change to the plants , still yellow.
In fact the Jack with the yellow spots is looking pretty bad , yellow spots turning to a kind of copper colour.
Any advice? Should I expect changes in one day or do I need to wait longer for changes ?
3 other plants are looking just fine ?

-update ...All plants are now showing these yellow symptoms.
Thanks

 

[csharper]

I assume you have checked that your sprayers are working, this is not an equipment issue, etc

I assume you know, that with fresh water, add micro first, then bloom

I have been hesitant to throw out an EC target for aero - but straight from your Aeroflow instructions, step 2: Generally the conductivity (nutrient strength) should be maintained between
800 to 1,200 ppm (parts per million). I don't feel like looking whether they mean @.7 or .5, but either way, that number means "normal Lucas strengths" (0:8:16=1000ppm@.5=2.0ec)

I want to show you some rapid greenup.

This is your res now:

Micro Flora 3.5
Bloom Flora 7
Estimated TDS@.7 584
Estimated TDS@.5 417
Estimated EC/mS 0.83


This is where you need to be in light of Aeroflow AND Lucas rec EC target. I recommend you use this 0:2:3 ratio instead for now (H3ad,Rezdog):
Micro Flora 6.66
Bloom Flora 10
Estimated TDS@.7 978
Estimated TDS@.5 699
Estimated EC/mS 1.40


If you have added ph down since your reply you need to dump the res, otherwise you can simply top off with water, then add micro, stir, then bloom:

If you really have an eight gallon res as per GH, then the amount of micro to add in MLs is: round_down((6.66-3.5)*8)=25 ml,
for bloom, substitute the old and new bloom numbers (you should end with 24ml)


So in a nutshell: top water level, add 25ml of micro, stir, add 25 ml bloom (you don't have to micro measure out 20+4ml) - they should be looking good by the end of the day.

 

[ultima]

Yes , all equipment is fine.
I stirred the micro , then added the bloom.
I was just about to add Ph down when I decided to check if I had a reply, so no Ph down added. The res is 24 gallons or 90 liters.
Which means (if i got it right) that I substitute the 8 for 24 and get 75.8 Micro and 72 Bloom. Any specific reason you suggest changing ratios.

You seem convinced that I am underfeeding ? No doubt in your mind?
Ok, i´ll try this is and see what happens.

 

[ultima]

Boom- hit 1.4 spot on.
Waiting to check the Ph .

-Ph came up at around 6 ? Thats strange , only went down about 0.5
Maybe i need to give it time to settle?

-Edit...Day after and the Ph is spot on , just slightly under 6.
However , none of the plants are showing any sign of recovery yet.
In fact they are heavily yellow now , i´ll post some pictures later today....Im panicking slightly.

I even have one young plant - a plant that should be happy with the nute levels( even when they were low) that is showing yellow on new growth?

Thanks for your help Csharper !

Man , my total lack of experience is killing my plants.

 

[csharper]

how is it looking this morning? I'll be around to help you all day if need be.

 

[ultima]

Well , this morning its looking kinda the same or worse ?
I´ll snap a few pics , upload in a short while.
Gimme half an hour or so...

Thanks again for taking the time Csharper.

Here´s the small one...


Here´s the Yellow spotted one that is turning brown now.


And a few others


And a few of the healthiest ones , very slight yellowing.


Ec is at 1.4 - Ph is slightly lower then 6.
Res temp 22 - ambient temp 24 - plant level 28.
600 w Hps at about 60-70 cm .
Removed the 250 CFL for now. ( actually the pics are better with the cfl going, i´ll turn it on if i need more shots)

When should i expect to see changes in the plants condition after upping the Ec ?
It feels like they are getting worse but I'm not entirely sure ? (after comparing the pics - well - they are definitely worse)

I did have some plastic that I cut out from gardening knee mats covering the unused netpots.
I removed that and filled with hydroton, thought it might be polluting the water , pretty desperate - but yeah...

I'm stumped.

 

[csharper]

it would probably be better to take pictures with just the camera flash than under hps spectrum.

when you transplanted, what did you do with the peat pucks - are they soaking wet buried in the hydroton?

 

[ultima]

I very carefully broke the pucks off , gently removed most of the dirt -what remained was removed with a fine spray mist. From there I placed the plant into the hydroton.
There is no peat residue.

I took extreme care not do damage roots. While I expected some transplant shock I didn't expect this.

 

[csharper]

I really want to give you an answer here, or at least something to try.... but the new pics are hard to read

Just take 4 more pictures of the exact same plants as the first four pictures in this thread ("This Jack has yellow spots but its the only one with the spots.").

No HPS on at all, only CFL plus flash.

Hydroton - is it wet/damp under the surface? - if so, good, if not, dump about 16oz per plant from the res through the hydroton, just this once.

Are they getting a dark period at all or 24 hour lighting?

 

[ultima]

The hydroton seems wet enough .
No dark period -24 hour.
I´ll take some more pictures.

 

[stihgnobevoli]

on second thought looks like a few different micro defs all at once. either you need more micros for these plants or your ph is too low. you should prolly empty out your res, clean all your shit and start over. after you check the ph.

also how bout some pictures that arent taken under ayellow light so we can see what the plants actually look like.

 

[ultima]

Ok here goes..

Yellow spotted jack, has recovered slightly from yellow-ness but you can see the damage.

Close up.


One of the white widows.

Small plant.


Only plant that looks remotely healthy.


Ph is at 6 , not too low at all.

I should definitely be seeing a result from upping the nutes , right ? If that was the problem.

Should I flush the res and start over ?

 

[ultima]

Could it be the tent offgassing?

I looked at the offgassing thread and that´s where i found these pictures of plants that look like mine. Yellow from the center.
http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=103953&page=16

Its Mylar but has this plastic thing as a bottom liner.

 

[csharper]

whew, not nearly as bad as the hps made it look LOL.

the jack is in better shape IMO - looks like it has put on a set of leaves in the last 2 days? Has nicer color now. But you tell me, is that just because the first pics were under hps?

the mutant widow (with the mini leaf on 2nd node) even though I am not completely happy with its color on the third node edges, did grow that 3rd node over the last two days. And I am thinking the borders were already damaged at that point. Monitor this 4th node closely, it should come in close to perfect.

the mini one we will know more later today - it doesn't really look burned or shocked though

the new growth on the last one looks really great - that right there says you are doing something right...

On your first reservoir, how much phdown estimate did you actually use?

What about the other yellow plants from the original post - have these darkened up?

Water usage since you topped off yesterday?

Note that plants don't always heal themselves, rather they just start growing correctly from then out. Sometimes they just totally give up on the damaged areas, like on your yellow spotted jack. Key is you don't want that to continue on the successive growth. Good news is, I usually don't see them give up on the bad areas until they are sure they can make new good areas.

IMO incorporating a 4 hour dark period centered on your eventual 12 hour dark period, definitely can't hurt. There are dark only processes, even if it just boils down to a daily "reboot" of sorts.

Can you show me a plant that is now worse in your opinion? Any other "mini" plants seem stunted or not growing?

 

[csharper]

about offgassing: your light is at least 3' from the pvc floor - can't imagine enough heat hits the floor to be a problem

 

[ultima]

Yeah , they do look slightly better with the hps off.
Jack is doing better but the other ones just seem weaker than before, there´s growth on the widows but they do look even more yellow than at first.

Here´s a picture of the effect of offgassing - apparently pvc floors are enough.
I might remove the pvc floor from the tent, just to be sure.
Looks suspiciously like my plants.

I´ll reply to your questions in a moment , csharper.
Thanks