The Flour thread : Micronization and microbial feeding.

[JackTheGrower]

The Flour thread : Micronization and microbial feeding

With organic soil gardening providing plant nutrients often means managing a system of life.
Organic soil growing is more than supplying plant ready ionic forms of nutrients in some "Organic fashion." It's about providing materials that support not only plant life but also support the soil biology.

I have been experimenting with rice in compost and my soil mixes for a while now and the subject of rice flour has come up. I had planned to wait to write about it but I have broached that subject today and so it is time to lay a proper foundation on micronized materials as a way to "fast track" feeding the microorganisms and in turn providing the plant with nutrients through the soil food web.
Organic Soil in small containers is a unique situation for applying organic feeding techniques. Often we can just apply what we would do in the open areas outdoors to our indoor ( or outdoor ) containers but, some practices need to be modified to help the smaller volumes of "soil" and the biology in them take advantage of some materials.
Teas come to mind as an example, where we can provide an abundance of microbial and fungal life to small containers and, with this thread I introduce Micronization of materials as another important tool.
Micronization allows more surface area of the feeding materials to be accessed by more microorganisms and in turn allows more materials to be consumed and thus supports larger populations that feed other organisms and in time service the rizosphere of the plant.
Micronization also allows a more uniform and economical distribution of materials over smaller areas.
Micronization is simply grinding fine what materials we use already and some materials we hadn't thought of.
Since my experiments are not finished I cannot make statements about an over all effect; however, I have noticed an obvious surge in plant growth after an application of micronized mix and I feel overall development time has been relatively short for the three strains I am trying this medical grow.

I'll open the topic and say I'm not an expert just an enthusiast and , besides, I need to get my donations worth of wikipedia links out of wikipidea.

Simply put we grind fine to powder and dust or top dress the surface of the soil with tiny bits of microbe foods so that they surge in populations and in turn feed others who in turn end up servicing our plants..
The mixing of these finely ground materials allows for a uniform distribution of all materials across a given surface area such as a garden pot or planter bed.
Think of it as blending all your food for dinner in the blender; all the meat and veggies and what not ( don't forget the sugars too and coffee ) and then knowing that in each spoon full you got everything at once.. Just that you get it in a smaller area ( a spoon full )
That's the positive side of micronization.. Everything mixed together covering every bit of soil surface or even mixed into the soil and ready to be ate by the microherd!
And again do not over feed and take notes because you may discover a secret formula you would like to repeat later.

This is an effort to gather and share information on using micronized materials.

I am interested in micronized top dressings and microbial actions and the effects on soil biology and plant development.


So here is a shout out!

Jack


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I am currently watching this grow and using rice in the soil mix and rice flour in feeding mixes along with other things.


Some info posted earlier..




Rice flour:

-------------------------------
Shameless cut and past...

I do believe the white rice flour is hull less when ground. Brown isn't.
There are difference such as sodium so, let me make a chart here with this data.

Minerals Amounts Per Selected Serving. Percent daily values for humans %DV

Serving size 1 cup 158 grams

WHITE RICE FLOUR | BROWN RICE FLOUR
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Calcium 15.8 mg 2% | Calcium 17.4 mg 2%
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Iron 0.6 mg 3% | Iron 3.1 mg 17%
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Magnesium 55.3 mg 14% | Magnesium 177 mg 44%
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Phosphorus 155 mg 15% | Phosphorus 532 mg 53%
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Potassium 120 mg 3% | Potassium 457 mg 13%
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sodium 0.0 mg 0% | Sodium 12.6 mg 1%
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Zinc 1.3 mg 8% | Zinc 3.9 mg 26%
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Copper 0.2 mg 10% | Copper 0.4 mg 18%
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Manganese 1.9 mg 95% | Manganese 6.3 mg 317%
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Selenium 23.9 mcg 34% | Selenium ~
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fluoride ~ | Fluoride ~
============================== ================


Source: Rice Flour


What is Brown rice flour
What is White rice flour

Brown rice flour will spoil faster and white rice flour keeps longer, but this is for the soil so...

So higher percentages are in the brown but, you will still do fine with white rice.

In fact you can use a coffee bean grinder to make your flour if you like.

Also I see that Potato flour offers some interesting perks as in a kick in the ass shot of potassium

Minerals
Amounts Per Selected Serving
%DV


Calcium 104 mg 10%
Iron 2.2 mg 12%
Magnesium 104 mg 26%
Phosphorus 269 mg 27%
Potassium 1602 mg 46%
Sodium 88.0 mg 4%
Zinc 0.9 mg 6%
Copper 0.3 mg 16%
Manganese 0.5 mg 25%
Selenium 1.8 mcg 3%

Source

 

[JackTheGrower]

To make your own micronized "flour" mix you may want to invest in a coffee bean grinder if you have just a few pots or a heavy duty blender if you have more than that.

To start with I will share a simple example of a mix.

1 TBS of Sea Bird Guano
1 tsp of Green Sand
1 TBS Kelp meal
A little oyster shell or dolomite lime ( use good judgment on what you might need )
And rice.. Fill it up and grind.

Now I like to add coffee so I add 1 TBS of fresh ground coffee and I like Raw washed cane sugar so I add some of that.

I assume oatmeal will be a good thing.. The possibilities are endless when I start to think about dry comfey or any other plant that makes a good micronized "flour" additive.

So what you use, the ratios, the choice of materials for the nutrients you are after is up to you.

There are flours you can buy from places like health food stores to save wear on the grinders..


Alright then.. As always keep it simple.. Don't over feed and take note of what you mix does for you.

Please feel free to share mixes, information, results, problems or what ever about micronized microbial feeding in general..

Jack

 

[maryjohn]

I think you may want to review the info out there on nitrogen robbing by bacteria as they break down high carbon matter. The reason kelp works so well as an amendment is that there is very little cellulose to break down, so the microherd is not competing with your plants. Too much rice, on the other hand, could cause problems (not so much if it's just top dressed). I wonder if micronized flour stays where you put it at the top, because when you speed up the process you speed it all up, and you have the potential to quickly tie up all the N in your soil, depending on how much you are using. The "don't overfeed" part seems crucial.

Just a thought that might help you in your experiments...

oh, by the way, if there is an asian market near you, look for something called broken rice. it's much cheaper than regular.

 

[JackTheGrower]

I think you may want to review the info out there on nitrogen robbing by bacteria as they break down high carbon matter. The reason kelp works so well as an amendment is that there is very little cellulose to break down, so the microherd is not competing with your plants. Too much rice, on the other hand, could cause problems (not so much if it's just top dressed). I wonder if micronized flour stays where you put it at the top, because when you speed up the process you speed it all up, and you have the potential to quickly tie up all the N in your soil, depending on how much you are using. The "don't overfeed" part seems crucial.

Just a thought that might help you in your experiments...

oh, by the way, if there is an Asian market near you, look for something called broken rice. it's much cheaper than regular.

Well there is a life cycle of all things and the soil food web keeps on keeping on IMO.

Things bind nitrogen and other things eat them and poop nitrogen out.. And ultimately humus is formed in the soil..

Certainly moderation is always key, in life and, in the organic soil, that certainly is true.

We should no more use too much bone meal as too much rice flour.

Can you think of other materials that can be micronized?? Maybe Alfalfa? One's imagination is the only limit.

The point of micronization is faster utilization of materials through small particle size. If we combine that with moderation of application and observe the results we can fine tune our feeding skills in an organic soil.

Nothing to be afraid of.. It's like shaking parmigiana on your pizza!



Jack

 

[habeeb]

man you guys go to fast for me, alfalfa, then molasses, then kelp, then teas, then FPE's now rice. crazy stuff,

hope some more people can add some info as I always love learning

 

[C21H30O2]

i micronize all soil additives to a dolomite lime like consistency before adding. One of the best things an organic grower can do.

 

[JackTheGrower]

Micronization porn

Micronization porn

Well I had a nice exchange with a fellow who had "The Doctor" and he shared information so I am able to gauge the amount of materials I can add.

This will be a heavy feed and I will be very busy training these really huge girls.

My friend said some growers use a single 600 watt HPS for one "The Doctor" Oh man am I growing a 2 monsters in small quarters.

So back to the micronization.

Invested in a cheep blender ( $19.95 ) and this is all it will be used for since I add guano and whatnot.

So here is some micronization porn. I went heavy on the ground coffee 4 beakers I think and the Rice mix was some left over from last mix and some new white rice That also was 4 beakers.



The soil was drenched then a liquid feed was applied and the liquids were washed off the plants. Then the micronized materials were mixed into a peat and coir mix and laid down as a top dressing creating a new top layer.
The plants were rinsed again to remove the dry materials,

I am assuming this is the last big feed. This mix smelled really nice!

So what do you micronize? Do you have some favorite materials?

Why not share a post.


Jack

 

[Clackamas Coot]

JackTheGrower

At the nursery trade show today was a company who had 'soy flour' as an amendment for organic growers/farmers. I was rushed and couldn't stay long enough to talk with him today but I'll be back tomorrow and also Saturday. Once I get the information I'll post a link to their company and how they're using it and applying it.

Great trade show! They're expecting 35,000 visitors over the 3 days. This is not a home & garden show where you'd expect to find spas and barbeque grills - just hardcore greenhouse and field grow operations.

Take care!

CC

 

[habeeb]

^ would love to know more info on this as well

never hear much talk about people using rice / soy flour

 

[jaykush]

is this soy flour made from soybeans? i know someone who uses soybean meal for there nitrogen source.

 

[Clackamas Coot]

JayKush

I use soybean meal in my seed meal mixture along with (all organic and non-GMO) alfalfa meal, canola seed meal, linseed meal, cotton seed meal (equal amounts) and to that I add kelp meal, crustacean meal (blue crab and shrimp) and neem seed meal.

Works for me. All ingredients add up to $125.00 for 220 lbs. which is split among 4 other organic producers - pretty cheap money for the benefit.

CC

 

[jaykush]

so im assuming its not the same

 

[Clackamas Coot]

Jaykush

Correct - soybean meal is not the same as soybean flour, i.e. it's ground to a finer level and I'm assuming that the benefit remains regardless of the 'grind'

I think.

CC

 

[Clackamas Coot]

Jaykush

Let me back up a bit. I would assume that soybean flour is soybeans ground up (duh!) and that the soybean meal is what's left after pressing out the oil. That's the case with many of the seed meal items.

Not really sure - just surmising.

CC

 

[JackTheGrower]

Fellas.. I thought to get your input..

Since soil carbon is important in our container situation what do you think of micronizing char as a small portion of mix?

CC and Jaykush I believe you two wrote about layers and that is a given when laying down a top dressing.

I wouldn't replace the larger pieces in my soil but since the carbon cycle is so important micronizing seems like the thing as well..

Jack

 

[maryjohn]

here's one of my carbon sources - C12H22O11

also every little bit of peat, or any other organic material, is full of carbon.

micronizing char would probably be beneficial, but not necessarily because of the carbon cycle. I believe microbes grab something with carbon so they can break the molecule and take the energy resulting from the bonds breaking.

microbeman?

 

[JackTheGrower]

Jaykush

Let me back up a bit. I would assume that soybean flour is soybeans ground up (duh!) and that the soybean meal is what's left after pressing out the oil. That's the case with many of the seed meal items.

Not really sure - just surmising.

CC

Flour

Soy flour refers to defatted soybeans where special care was taken during desolventizing (not toasted) in order to minimize denaturation of the protein to retain a high Nitrogen Solubility Index (NSI), for uses such as extruder texturizing (TVP). It is the starting material for production of soy concentrate and soy protein isolate.

* Defatted soy flour is obtained from solvent extracted flakes, and contains less than 1% oil.
* Full-fat soy flour is made from unextracted, dehulled beans, and contains about 18% to 20% oil. Due to its high oil content a specialized Alpine Fine Impact Mill must be used for grinding rather than the more common hammer mill.
* Low-fat soy flour is made by adding back some oil to defatted soy flour. The lipid content varies according to specifications, usually between 4.5% and 9%.
* High-fat soy flour can also be produced by adding back soybean oil to defatted flour at the level of 15%.
* Lecithinated soy flour is made by adding soybean lecithin to defatted, low-fat or high-fat soy flours to increase their dispersibility and impart emulsifying properties. The lecithin content varies up to 15%.

----------------------------

Carcinogen

Raw soy flour is known to cause pancreatic cancer in rats.[69] Whether this is also true in humans is unknown because no studies comparing cases of pancreatic cancer and soy intake in humans have yet been conducted, and the doses used to induce pancreatic cancer in rats are said to be larger than humans would normally consume. Heated soy flour may not be carcinogenic in rats.[70][71] Existing cancer patients are being warned to avoid foods rich in soy because they can accelerate the growth of tumours.[72]

I think this lends to fermentation.. I see that there are parts of the soy that are needing to be broken down by bacteria.

Edit: I'm not sure on Soy after reading more..

Edit2: After reading more this Soy isn't natural enough for me.. Look how processed it has to be to be useful in the Garden.. Maybe not all things natural are good for the soil.

What about Soy is such a positive except maybe a cheep additive?

 

[JackTheGrower]

here's one of my carbon sources - C12H22O11

also every little bit of peat, or any other organic material, is full of carbon.

micronizing char would probably be beneficial, but not necessarily because of the carbon cycle. I believe microbes grab something with carbon so they can break the molecule and take the energy resulting from the bonds breaking.

microbeman?

I was thinking that so I mixed my micronized mix with peat and coir..

Microbman?

Jay, CC?

Edit: I also added washed raw cane C12H22O11 Funny.. I was like looking and saying wtf.. Funny..

 

[habeeb]

I wanted to keep this up, and see if anyone had anything else to add

i was at the grocery store earlier, and saw some things there. coconut flour, the soy flour, and many other things turned into "flour". I think organics will go in the way of not using blood and bone, and in turn making all products vegan for the vegan and non-vegan..

I think the time is now to start replacing that bone / guano with rock phosphate and blood with alfalfa / canola meal and the sorts..

have fun

EDIT: I was saying nutrients being vegan and all parties win, and I somehow think the energy will be so much better, as animals in cages and not so great conditions would create bad vibes, that would carry off to your plant??? things to think about.. I also think plant based nutrients are more natural, there are animals that die and would be recycled, but dead animals are a source for other animals so... just some thoughts as "science" is only part of the picture of growing..

 

[jaykush]

habeeb have you tried plant powders? everything your plants will ever need just get the right source plants and your set. it also is vegan organics too.

micronizing char would probably be beneficial, but not necessarily because of the carbon cycle. I believe microbes grab something with carbon so they can break the molecule and take the energy resulting from the bonds breaking.

i add micronized char to my worm bins, they LOVE IT and it makes beautifully rich castings. it does not do so well in soil mixes as it makes them a bit mushy( best to use char at 1/4 inch pieces for mixes). the powder is best applied to composting first. the surface area of micronized char is probably off the charts.