Organic Fanatic Collective

[neongreen]

Hey Snap,

I'm sure our more experienced resident organic growers will chime in, but I think your mix sounds fine.

When I amended mine I used bone meal and hoof/horn as the main N sources. I doubled them up effectively, since one is longer release than the other, and it seems to have worked fine. I would do that, and keep the guano for teas and if necessary a top dressing.

Same with the rock phosphate I think. It's slow release as I recall.

I think with the alfalfa/comfrey, use a half measure, and keep the recommended amount (or more) seaweed meal for it's Mg.

One thing I'm noticing with the plants, is that they want more Mg, but I'm not sure if I put enough seaweed meal in (main source of Mg), so you could perhaps increase that by a bit, just to be sure. I think you have to go easy on the lime if you want fungi friendly soil too.

That would do it I think.

 

[VerdantGreen]

i can see that this is another thread i'm going to have to read all the way through! - nice work to all involved

snap - it looks like the alfalfa plus (never used that) is your only significant source of K/potassium so it so you may want to give a full dose - i use rock potash 5g/litre(although seaweed has some and probably the rock dust too)
the cavemans guano i use 5g of each per litre of soil for VEG
and for flower i use 10g/litre of P/rock Guano and 5g/litre of N/fresh Guano. i have experimented with reducing the N but ran into shortages so i'm pretty confident about those amounts. you can weigh a tablespoon and then convert if you prefer to measure by volume.
i wouldnt worry too much about reducing amounts because of the slow release stuff but i would go easy on them because you want the N etc to run short at the end anyway imo.

good luck

V.

 

[McSnappler]

Thanks ng and VG!

I have thought about keeping the guanos for teas, but really I want to have to avoid brewing as much as possible, save for the odd AACT to kick the microbes into overdrive.

You could be right about K sources VG, it's hard for me, I'm still trying to get out of the "NPK mentality" and into the concept of feeding the soil. I got myself a nice big bin to cook the dirt mix, so will be mixing tomorrow probably, and will wet with AACT as I can't find Liquid Karma anywhere locally. Any other input before I get going is massively appreciated.

 

[Clackamas Coot]

McSnappler

Try brewing up a kelp meal tea - add 1/4 cup of kelp meal to 5 gallons and bubble it out for a day or so.

You'll be amazed on what it will do to your clones and plants.

HTH

CC

 

[jaykush]

here is a link for everyone, its based on terra preta but has some cool ideas and concepts. i cant say hes 100% right but hes got the right mindset.

http://www.truehealth.org/terrapreta-farming.html

 

[onegreenday]

Montmorillonite clay

Montmorillonite clay

I searched the thread (thanks Suby) and only 2
mentions of Montmorillonite clay.

Here is a link to such a product. It may be very usefull for
our purposes.

This has blood meal and not 4 vegans but u can get the clay without

blood meal. claims to have unique silicon virtues and

lots of keen minors.
http://www.californiaearthminerals.com/products/earth-food.php

EARTHFOOD Plus™ is pure Calcium Montmorillonite plus organic blood meal. It's the trace mineral elements and soil conditioner that is preferred by organic gardens, farms, and growers.

Give your earth the best nutrients that nature can provide:

* Silicate adsorbent with strong CEC
* Moderately alkaline pH
* 57 macro, micro, and trace minerals
* Contains ultrafine silicates for long term sustained release of nutrients
* Contains 12% ring dried organic blood meal for rapid nutrient uptake
* High in calcium, iron, magnesium, potassium, copper, and silica
* Bacteria free and toxin free

 

[LadyLargely]

The results of super-cropping are hard to deny. The health and vigor will amaze, and should argue to supplant topping as a primary means of encouraging branching.

3_Blind_Mice

A-Men Brothah! Fuck topping!

Heh, uhh, hey there organic soil gardeners! I've lurked about in the organic hydro forums for quite some time now as those folks are a bit more experimental, but I figured some of you might get a kick out of this too:



All-organic medium-based grow with a twist: a built in water resivoir and oxygen source!

I use a simple tub system called Organic Bubble Bath Tub. Those of you who have visited the organic hydro forums lately may have noticed it slowly being taken over by threads dealing with these OBBTs.



They use a semi-soilless medium. By volume its:

25% organic compost
50% coco moss
25% pearlite/vermiculite

This medium is mixed up and then combined with a very large load of simply dry organic components. Stuff like blood meal, EWC or nitrogen-rich manuer is great. On top of that some form of dormant or fresh-cultured beneficial microbes are stirred in. A combination of beneficial aerobic bacteria and mycorrhizae fungus gets added to the mix of constituents.

Once added to the tub this "hot" medium sits on top of the lava-rock-filled 'bath' at the bottom of which is an air-stone. There are enough rocks so that the medium is never submerged. An overflow drain manages the water level. Add this fresh medium to the tubs, fill them with water and run the air stones.

The tubs then 'incubate' with the fungus visibly growing and multiplying. Within a week the dark medium gets covered in the grey haze of the fungal root network:



After a long and somewhat difficult prep the rest is a cake-walk. My plants are now more than 40 days in (from seed) and I'm just now getting around to giving them their first batch of nutes. Made it all the way through veg on the pre-loaded nutes and two doses of de-chlorinated tap water only!

The crazy-active bio-life that lives in the tubs takes care of everything! pH balancing, lockout protection, drout resistance, pathogen resistence, all of the normal hydro-headaces are totally absent! Nothing but rapid growth and happy plants!



Switched to 12/12 after 31 days from placing the seeds in the wet towel.

At the switch-flip the plants where about 1/3 the size that I need them to be to fill my screen. Heavy cytokinin treatments have supressed the plants' sexual expression. They will stay in this 'stretch' limbo for 3 weeks. Search the plants all you want, 40 days in and 10 days into flower there is not a single pistil or nut to be found.

A merciless training regiment has kept placement of the growth tips perfect. No growth tip is more than 4 inches away from this:



344 watts of overdriven floro fury! An awkard lamp needs an awkward canopy and I've made just the thing:



The results have been an explosion of tops. The sheer quantity of offshoots and growth tips in my tiny space boggles the mind. foliage density is on a level of its own. This was only possible with the help of extensive supercropping! I'm more aggressive than most gardeners and really push my plants to the edge. They just seem to love it though:



The results of all this work are shaping up to be quite rewarding:



This explosion of growth occured in my first week of flower. I reckon that I've got another 2 weeks of this sort of growth to go. 2 more weeks without a single pistil. After that long wait though I shall be rewarded with 5 out of 5 female plants from mixed un-feminized seed!

The wait for pistils, like always, will be agonizing. However, today I plan to poke my ladies-to-be down the right path with this:



My first organic tea for this grow! Its a nitrogen-twinged phosphate-heavy light-potassium early flowering special! It is meant to give the plants the proper nutes to start bud development while still providing lots of nitrogen to keep them filling my screen. Final nute ratio of 1/2/.7

Heh, and thats the jist of it I think. Just wanted to share what I've always thought is a fairly unique grow style. The organic hydro guys have been pretty excited about this OBBT idea, but I think its so simple-to-run that some of you semi-soilless guys may be tempted as well. I'll be happy to field questions but anyone who is properly interested in the details should hit the "OBBT grow show" link in my sig before firing away.

Till next time!

 

[somebody041]

lady largely - thanks for sharing! i've been curious about dabbling in hydro but i've heard that organic hydro is a beast of it's own and being organic is more important than being hydro. i'm heading over to the organic hydro forum right now to check out those OBBTs

 

[LadyLargely]

Hey mate!

If you put more emphasis on organics than hydro science then OBBTs could be the thing for you. They are (usually) all-organic and the flexibility of them boggles the mind! You can use any kind of organic nute in existance. Fresh, powdered, liquid, concentrate, naturally-sourced, it just doesn't matter. As long as you are careful to maintain the proper nute ratios OBBTs will run with a larger variety of nutes than anything else. They will even tolerate some use of salt/mineral nutes to bolster the nutrient supply when needed like in heavy flower.

Organic Hydro is a whole different kettle of fish. Many many growers are disappointed by organic hydro because they approach it like mineral hydro. That is not the way to do it. You must learn new techniques and change your grow-style to accommodate beneficial micro-life. These little guys are the only big advantage that going organic has over salt nutes, so we need to use that advantage for all its worth!!

Many gardeners struggle with the transition to organic hydro because of the unpredictability these microbes can make. Add raw organic nutes to a typical hydro reservoir and all you are gonna get is a big foamy mess!

User Big Toke's Bio Buckets are one of the few styles of hydro that was designed with microbes in mind. However, that style still runs like salt hydro. You still check the PPMs, balance the pH and so-on. Bio-Buckets are microbialy-assisted but they are not, as the OBBTs are, Microbialy Maintained

All of the tedious little jobs that the gardener usually tends to are taken care of by the microbes living in the OBBT. This makes OBBTs even more far-removed from other established grow styles. It takes a lot of faith to step away from the pH meter and allow thousands of stupid little single-cell organisms to do the work for you, but trust me, they are much better at it than you could ever be!

This is why I think OBBTs could appeal to you organic soil guys so much. Whether you chaps know it or not the process that makes my method work is also what makes well-run organic soil grows do so nicely. You cats have the benefits of mycorrhizae and aerobacteria as well. The difference is that the OBBTs where purpose built for supporting these guys. Beneficial microbe colonies in OBBTs will always be stronger and more helpful than in normal soil because of all the extra oxygen. Oxygen levels are where soil and semi-soilles grows really fall down. I figured out long ago that oxygen levels at the root zone are one of the few real advantages that hydro has over soil growing at all!

I hope to someday bridge that gap, to bring hydro and medium growers together. We're all seeking the same thing, I think the OBBTs could be the perfect vessel to get us there

 

[vonforne]

I do not know about you all but I miss Suby around the house.

V-man

 

[Tropic]

Same here V-man... hope you guys remember me, I used to hang around as Relik... then had to change my handle for security... everything is OK now... when I think about all the hours I spent here chilling and learning with the crew, I get so nostalgic!

Gonna spark one up, not without a thought for our friend Suby.

 

[cosmiccowboy]

plants are in 1st wk of flower that were grown on nothin but miracle grow moisture control.should i hit them with some alfalfa and or molasses tea?..they're in that initial spurt of growth maryjane goes through in 1st stage of flower,and new growth could be greener.....i've got alfalfa meal,kelp meal,and grandmas molasses...maybe some combination of top dressing?..tea?....my point of this thread is this: i havent fed these plants anything at all.straight,mgmc..how would organic supplements work with that?

 

[LadyLargely]

plants are in 1st wk of flower that were grown on nothin but miracle grow moisture control.should i hit them with some alfalfa and or molasses tea?..they're in that initial spurt of growth maryjane goes through in 1st stage of flower,and new growth could be greener.....i've got alfalfa meal,kelp meal,and grandmas molasses...maybe some combination of top dressing?..tea?....my point of this thread is this: i havent fed these plants anything at all.straight,mgmc..how would organic supplements work with that?

Poorly.

Organics take time to work, its why they lack appeal to some gardeners. The 'instant' results of basic powdered organics is terrible. They need time, and preferably LOTS of help from beneficial microbes to break down and become avaliable to the plants. Your best bet if you're trying to go with the stuff you have on hand is to brew a tea. Top dressing won't show you any results immediately. It will take a week or two to kick in and by the sounds of it that's too long.

Good organic grows are all about preparation. If you want to yield well with organics, you have to be well-prepared and work in advance. Honestly, if you are concerned with your yield I would look at some artificial salt nutes. Unless you have strong convictions towards organics I wouldn't try to use them for a half-way-through fix. Get some basic salt blooming nutes, finish this grow, then come back when you are ready to start your next one.

 

[cosmiccowboy]

Poorly.

Organics take time to work, its why they lack appeal to some gardeners. The 'instant' results of basic powdered organics is terrible. They need time, and preferably LOTS of help from beneficial microbes to break down and become avaliable to the plants. Your best bet if you're trying to go with the stuff you have on hand is to brew a tea. Top dressing won't show you any results immediately. It will take a week or two to kick in and by the sounds of it that's too long.

Good organic grows are all about preparation. If you want to yield well with organics, you have to be well-prepared and work in advance. Honestly, if you are concerned with your yield I would look at some artificial salt nutes. Unless you have strong convictions towards organics I wouldn't try to use them for a half-way-through fix. Get some basic salt blooming nutes, finish this grow, then come back when you are ready to start your next one.

lady,i've been puttin together lc's soiless mix for about 6 wks,so i am prepared..got 50 gallons of organic mix cookin..these are plants i put in mgmc because it's all i had at the time and to my shock(i had somehow killed 10 with mgmc recently) they have done great...thats why i want to do the right hing with them..got 4 plants of this and they are nice..i've got all kinds of miracle gro plant food but dont wanna use that unless i really need to....what do you think about alfalfa tea for its final dose of nitrogen?..also have some compost and nanure mix that could be used as a tea..what about molasses? would that help?..they are nortern lights and have at least 5 wks to go..i appreciate yer help..ps:when you say salt nutes are you talkin about synthetic plant food like miracle gro?

 

[vonforne]

Same here V-man... hope you guys remember me, I used to hang around as Relik... then had to change my handle for security... everything is OK now... when I think about all the hours I spent here chilling and learning with the crew, I get so nostalgic!

Gonna spark one up, not without a thought for our friend Suby.

Welvome Home Brother.

V

 

[LadyLargely]

lady,i've been puttin together lc's soiless mix for about 6 wks,so i am prepared..got 50 gallons of organic mix cookin..these are plants i put in mgmc because it's all i had at the time and to my shock(i had somehow killed 10 with mgmc recently) they have done great...thats why i want to do the right hing with them..got 4 plants of this and they are nice..i've got all kinds of miracle gro plant food but dont wanna use that unless i really need to....what do you think about alfalfa tea for its final dose of nitrogen?..also have some compost and nanure mix that could be used as a tea..what about molasses? would that help?..they are nortern lights and have at least 5 wks to go..i appreciate yer help..ps:when you say salt nutes are you talkin about synthetic plant food like miracle gro?

I am talking about synthetic nutes when I say "salt nutes'

I'm not very scientific so I tend to throw words around a lot, but when it comes to nutrient nomenclature I'm a bit of a stickler.

See, the problem is 'organic gardening'. What's organic? Everything that comes with an OMRI sticker?? WRONG!!! OMRI is a crock. On top of that, what's to say all-natural minerally-derived substances aren't natural enough to be included in 'organic gardens'. Tons of very natural, very safe minerally-derived substances can't be called 'organic' because they where never once alive.

And that's the problem with using terms like 'chemical nutrients'. Everything is a chemical. Organic compounds are just as much a chemical as crappy miracle grow.

So, when speaking in terms of organic gardening I use the term "salt nutrients' do describe the sort of 'synthetic chemical' nutrients that are incompatible with micro-life. There are plenty of man-made substances that are fine to use with microherd-laden organics. Many CAL-MAG sources and buffing agents, trace-mineral sources and the like are artificially derived and totally safe for organic soil. So the term 'synthetic' doesn't really fit either.

Salt Ferts, the synthetic substances that are potent N-P-K plant food sources are what I'm talking about. These three main nutrients are always artificially delivered through salts. You add it to water and the salt dissolves, and then ionization and osmosis do the rest to carry the food to the plant roots. Unless you have specially-prepared super-stable microlife (Bio Box is one of the few that qualify) adding even small amounts of these kinds of nutrients will deal a hammer-blow to your microherd. pH swings about and the whole thing is de-stabilized in general. Now thats fine to do if your plants are suffering and need food fast.

But it sounds like you are fairly convicted to remaining organic. The problem is micro-life. What is yours like? Do you know? Did you make any effort to start up or provide for early beneficial fungus/bacteria cultures?

Unless you can physically see your Mycorrhiza structure like this:



...they are prolly not aggressive enough to work really fast.

So if thats the case you are limited to teas. And the problem with aerated teas is that its hard to extract low-potency water-insoluble powders like blood meal or alfalfa meal. There are two ways to help this:

1: Hot Extraction.

Boil a couple quarts of water. Add enough powdered organics in the desired ratio to work with 4-5 gallons of water. Immediately reduce heat and let stew in the 160 F+ water for a quarter hour. If you want to be really thorough pour this slurry into a mason jar or something sealable that will withstand some heat and shake the shit out of it for a while.

Strain off the now relatively useless solid and add the hopefully very murky liquid to a large bucket. Fill it up with cool de-chlorinated tap water, add a couple tablespoons of molasses and dope with any dormant beneficial microbes you may have. Toss in a working air stone and wait a couple days. Scrape off any foam that forms as usual.

2: Sock Method

Pinch a knackered pair of your lady's panty hose. Cut off the bottom foot of one leg, give yourself 12 inches or so of it. Fill the end of the sock with your organic powders. Cram your air-stone in the middle of it. Cinch up the sock around the air-line and tie it off really tight. Turn on the air pump and flop the sucker in. Add molasses and bennies. Remove foam as usual.


Both methods have their merits. Sock method takes a lot longer but is a bit more thorough. Hot extraction is very quick and effective, but it can be a hot smelly mess.


About Molasses: Molasses is a wonder-substance for organic gardeners. It has two main benefits:

Its natural CAL-MAG! It provides calcium and magnesium, and in the 2:1 ratio preferred by cannabis. The minerals are relatively easy to liberate in this form and it even packs bonus trace iron. Dope!

Its microbe super-food! Molasses is packed with high-volatility carbohydrates. It gives your beneficial bacteria a huge metabolic boost and it has benefits for present fungus as well.

That second reason is why I think the stuff should be added to any organic nutrient tea. You are bubbling the tea anyway and molasses helps friendly aerobic bacteria get a jump-start.

Traditional organic soil pot-style gardeners need to help their microbes as much as they can. You guys do not have the luxury of oxygen injection like we Bio Box gardeners have. Because of this its easier to knock your microherd off course and its much harder to bring damaged micro-life back to good health. You've got to do the best you can to provide for the little buggers when you first mix up your soil. Aerated teas and carbohydrate-heavy ferts like molasses and kelp are all the more you guys can do for your microbes once the plants have started growing.

Good luck

 

[cosmiccowboy]

I am talking about synthetic nutes when I say "salt nutes'

I'm not very scientific so I tend to throw words around a lot, but when it comes to nutrient nomenclature I'm a bit of a stickler.

See, the problem is 'organic gardening'. What's organic? Everything that comes with an OMRI sticker?? WRONG!!! OMRI is a crock. On top of that, what's to say all-natural minerally-derived substances aren't natural enough to be included in 'organic gardens'. Tons of very natural, very safe minerally-derived substances can't be called 'organic' because they where never once alive.

And that's the problem with using terms like 'chemical nutrients'. Everything is a chemical. Organic compounds are just as much a chemical as crappy miracle grow.

So, when speaking in terms of organic gardening I use the term "salt nutrients' do describe the sort of 'synthetic chemical' nutrients that are incompatible with micro-life. There are plenty of man-made substances that are fine to use with microherd-laden organics. Many CAL-MAG sources and buffing agents, trace-mineral sources and the like are artificially derived and totally safe for organic soil. So the term 'synthetic' doesn't really fit either.

Salt Ferts, the synthetic substances that are potent N-P-K plant food sources are what I'm talking about. These three main nutrients are always artificially delivered through salts. You add it to water and the salt dissolves, and then ionization and osmosis do the rest to carry the food to the plant roots. Unless you have specially-prepared super-stable microlife (Bio Box is one of the few that qualify) adding even small amounts of these kinds of nutrients will deal a hammer-blow to your microherd. pH swings about and the whole thing is de-stabilized in general. Now thats fine to do if your plants are suffering and need food fast.

But it sounds like you are fairly convicted to remaining organic. The problem is micro-life. What is yours like? Do you know? Did you make any effort to start up or provide for early beneficial fungus/bacteria cultures?

Unless you can physically see your Mycorrhiza structure like this:



...they are prolly not aggressive enough to work really fast.

So if thats the case you are limited to teas. And the problem with aerated teas is that its hard to extract low-potency water-insoluble powders like blood meal or alfalfa meal. There are two ways to help this:

1: Hot Extraction.

Boil a couple quarts of water. Add enough powdered organics in the desired ratio to work with 4-5 gallons of water. Immediately reduce heat and let stew in the 160 F+ water for a quarter hour. If you want to be really thorough pour this slurry into a mason jar or something sealable that will withstand some heat and shake the shit out of it for a while.

Strain off the now relatively useless solid and add the hopefully very murky liquid to a large bucket. Fill it up with cool de-chlorinated tap water, add a couple tablespoons of molasses and dope with any dormant beneficial microbes you may have. Toss in a working air stone and wait a couple days. Scrape off any foam that forms as usual.

2: Sock Method

Pinch a knackered pair of your lady's panty hose. Cut off the bottom foot of one leg, give yourself 12 inches or so of it. Fill the end of the sock with your organic powders. Cram your air-stone in the middle of it. Cinch up the sock around the air-line and tie it off really tight. Turn on the air pump and flop the sucker in. Add molasses and bennies. Remove foam as usual.


Both methods have their merits. Sock method takes a lot longer but is a bit more thorough. Hot extraction is very quick and effective, but it can be a hot smelly mess.


About Molasses: Molasses is a wonder-substance for organic gardeners. It has two main benefits:

Its natural CAL-MAG! It provides calcium and magnesium, and in the 2:1 ratio preferred by cannabis. The minerals are relatively easy to liberate in this form and it even packs bonus trace iron. Dope!

Its microbe super-food! Molasses is packed with high-volatility carbohydrates. It gives your beneficial bacteria a huge metabolic boost and it has benefits for present fungus as well.

That second reason is why I think the stuff should be added to any organic nutrient tea. You are bubbling the tea anyway and molasses helps friendly aerobic bacteria get a jump-start.

Traditional organic soil pot-style gardeners need to help their microbes as much as they can. You guys do not have the luxury of oxygen injection like we Bio Box gardeners have. Because of this its easier to knock your microherd off course and its much harder to bring damaged micro-life back to good health. You've got to do the best you can to provide for the little buggers when you first mix up your soil. Aerated teas and carbohydrate-heavy ferts like molasses and kelp are all the more you guys can do for your microbes once the plants have started growing.

Good luck

thanks for the organic tutorial,but that really doesnt have anything to do with my question.have been studying organic soil for 2 months and have 50 gallon of it cookin..these plants have no connection to organics....heres my question:..i've got 4 plants that have gone all the way to flower in miracle grow moisture control.have been in flower 1 week..what will happen if i feed them a tea of alfalfa meal,and or kelp meal,and or compost and manure,and or molasses?.i dont want to create ph problems with synthetic fertilizer.i dont know much,but i've learned 2 things so far...dont kill yer plants,and keep it simple...especially if you have no experience with current medium...comprende?

 

[h.h.]

You will receive limited benefit. Decomposition is slowed down. Nitrogen will be held in the compost and manure longer and released when you don't want it. If you're already maxed out on the on the nutes you could burn them as well. I'd flush before starting.

 

[cosmiccowboy]

You will receive limited benefit. Decomposition is slowed down. Nitrogen will be held in the compost and manure longer and released when you don't want it. If you're already maxed out on the on the nutes you could burn them as well. I'd flush before starting.

what do you mean by"if you're already maxed out on the nutes'..the only nutes these plants have had are the ones that were in the miracle grow moisture control bag..all they've had is rain water from off the top of my house..they havent needed anything,and are still not in bad shape..just that the new growth is a bit lighter..do you think i'd be better off to give them miracle grow bloom booster?

 

[vonforne]

Nice write up LadyLargely but most of this we already follow. I for one have been using coco added into the substrate for some time and now have added the clay gravel minus the sir tubes in my mix.
Most of us that have been here for a while use ACT and compost all of our own materials. No bottled ferts. Only organic materials.

The problem is micro-life. What is yours like?

Mine is great but you forgot to mention in what ratios that pertain to the growth stage. I prefer a fungal dominate soil and ACT in flowering.

About Molasses: Molasses is a wonder-substance for organic gardeners. It has two main benefits:

But you forgot t mention that unsulfered is the best choice.

2: Sock Method

Pinch a knackered pair of your lady's panty hose. Cut off the bottom foot of one leg, give yourself 12 inches or so of it. Fill the end of the sock with your organic powders. Cram your air-stone in the middle of it. Cinch up the sock around the air-line and tie it off really tight. Turn on the air pump and flop the sucker in. Add molasses and bennies. Remove foam as usual.

It is best to use a 400 micron mesh for this. I have used this method in the past but have learned better.

My first organic tea for this grow! Its a nitrogen-twinged phosphate-heavy light-potassium early flowering special! It is meant to give the plants the proper nutes to start bud development while still providing lots of nitrogen to keep them filling my screen. Final nute ratio of 1/2/.7

If yopu are a soil builder like we are then measuring NPK ratios is irrelevant. The soil will contains these and adding an ACT to the substrate with fresh micro life.....the will provide everything the plant needs.

V