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Help me design commercial op, large budget, and I will post journal here.

Ender

New member
:1help::1help::1help::1help:


hello all. not a first timer, but new to this forum.

I'm working with a 11k budget. Within 4 months of starting, I can invest an additional 11k if necessary. I'm experienced in commercial outdoor growing, but note that this is my first indoor grow. Note that I can also devote additional funds on a monthly basis from my 9-5 as well.

I'm a fan of "Al B Fuct" and his perpetual grow op. I know that this is not necessarily the most efficient means, but it suits my needs. I am looking to create the same type of operation, but to a larger scale, and on a larger budget.

Al B Fuct said:
You can scale my op to any size you like. The limitation is the amount of area you have under lights. If you do crowd in too many plants for your available space, yields will suffer and powdery mildew will become a problem. As I use 8" dia x 8" tall pots, I guess I'm giving each plant in the flowering area about an 8" circle to live in.

He did his with approx half of the starting capital I have, and in a smaller room.) If you aren't familiar with his style, here's the general idea.

abfopflowchart.gif


Through this means, he harvests 13-16 ounces every two weeks. I would like to do the exact same style, but with double the plants. He uses 2 1000w lights for all of the plants, I would use 4. Also note that he grows "lollipop" style, using trimming to induce strictly cola harvests. See below..

t2.jpg


He uses four 4'x4' flood trays. This covers about 64 SF obviously, and its necessary to consider moving space as well. Fans will be mounted for space efficiency.

I am looking for a hydroponic system that can handle 50% to 100% more plants.

Any advice / recommendations on what type of system will be most effective? I have my eye on a system like this:

15952_1.jpg


However, the pots are too small, only 3.75''. The system is way over priced as well, but note that it is just an example, I don't want that exact system. I have the same problem with the Aeroponics systems.

SO ... should I simply run two flowering rooms, to his scale? I'm trying to avoid having to ventilate two seperate rooms and C02, etc -- in other words, I have the ability to purchase double the equipment, but not untill Feb, and I would like to start in October with only 10k, instead of 20k in Feb, though I am aware that I may need to be patient. As of now, I'd like to run it in a master bedroom, about 11x14, but I understand i my be too small. I MIGHT be able to get a basement that is much larger, but I'm waiting to hear back from the landlord.

I'm also open to other methods that will produce similar yields. I'm flirting wth the "seemorebuds 15 Lbs in 80 days" method, but the amount of lights he used (approx 7000w, one room) will possily arouse suspicion in the area the op is running. I'd like to use 4400w (+ other appliances) but save due to the fact that the peretual style does not utilize the 18/6 cycle, thus saving on consumption.


What do you gys think? All questions, comments and suggestions are greatly appreciated.

Peace.

:woohoo::woohoo::woohoo::woohoo:
 

Lazyman

Overkill is under-rated.
Veteran
well, check out Dongle69, Greyskull and my grows, all E&F trays with coco, I can fit 36 plants in 2 gallon pots per 4X4 tray, if you're doing a SOG style grow. If you want to veg for a few weeks and do bushes buckets would be better, SoQUick style.

I ALWAYS advocate dual flowering rooms wherever possible, use a flip flop box if you can. Takes a lot of plants to do SOG on any scale, but man the harvests every 30-45 days are awesome. Takes the big wait right out of the equation.
 

blackone

Active member
Veteran
Haven't done anything bigger indoors than my 600W grow but I'll take a stab at sharing my thoughts too - cut/pasted from my own dreams of how to go big, hehe.

Infrastructure
Do you have enough amps to run everything? How about ventilation - where is that air gonna go? Or are you going to use an AC?

Money
I would advice you not to overspend - especially not in the beginning if your startup capital is money you already paid taxes on...
Shell out on a good ventilation and/or AC setup - double check the numbers to make sure you won't have heat issues.
Spend the money as you need it (unless you can't resist spending it on something else if you don't invest it immediately, hehe) and get started ASAP with a vegging/mother/cloning chamber - perhaps a small flowering cab to find the right strain.

Ergonomics
Design the layout to be ergonomic. Make it easy to access the tables or whatever system you choose from more than one side. This directly affects how motivated you will be to work after the first period of being "in love" ends. I mean it - seriously:)

Systems
Well... I'm a dirt grower so won't really go here except point at the money part... so many systems out there that work really well. I guess a drip system with coco/hydroton/perlite or whatever is the most fail-safe way to grow, and it can be set up really cheap so you won't spend too much money on a system you might want to replace in the future. KISS until the $ comes rolling in.
 

Ender

New member
black -- appreciate your insights. as for overspending, everything is being done as economical as possible, without sacrificing overall efficiency. The DWC systems, I am more than likely going to build myself, since there is a wealth of info online about it. Heat issues shouldn't be a problem, since the OP is starting in winter months (in the southeast US) but in any case, I've already purchased an inline fan and ducting along with cool tube reflectors. Still need a few other things in that regard, but I certainly agree that ventilation is paramount. I'm also considering getting a wall AC unit if I only use one room, or closing all AC vents except for rooms devoted to growing.

As far as spending as I need it, well, I always have had a burning hole in my pocket. But the way I control it, now, is to satisfy my need to spend by purchasing assets, not liabilities. :)

vegging / clone chamber will be done in a closet or hydro hut (I can get one for free) but I am also going to spend a significant amount on seeds as well so I can run a full cycle in my flowering room while I wait for my mothers to mature adequatly for cuttings.

Lazyman --
WOW, thanks for directing me to those. Exactly what I needed to see. I am working my way through your thread right now, and dongle's looks incredible too! I'll let you know when I'm done, because I think they're going to answer a lot of my questions. However, I will respond to what you said in this thread --

I noticed you aren't filling your trays to the max with plants. will 1 1000w light handle the max plants that you described? (36) Will I be able to harvest 3/4-1z per plant at this scale? I read in your thread that you're running 16 per 1000w.... Note -- I will only veg my plants for a few weeks, under floros, and then immediatly flower them to keep them in the 3' range. If I could pull out 1LB per 4x4 that would be great, but it seems a little over reaching. I know that yield questions are noobish, but I do need an idea of the expected / projected return on the investment, because I am not the sole person involved.

anyways thanks for all the help people. I'm working my way through your threads, like I said.

peace.
 

Ender

New member
another thing -- I am totally open to any experienced indoor grower's advice on how to best spend $7000 on equipment. The other $3 is going to go toward 1st + securty + extra discretionary funds.

would DWC on 4 4x4 trays, 32 plants each, 1k each tray, c02, vent, etc should be able to pull about 1.3ish LB per 2 weeks on an 8 week schedule ..... am I high balling or low balling?
 

Lazyman

Overkill is under-rated.
Veteran
Hey Ender, no problem, happy to help! I could write a book in response to your questions, but just for the record, Dongle69 is a STAR and I just re-read 20 pages of her thread last night. Good stuff. Our grows are nearly identical, but she has a number of years experience on me, so I will always defer to her!

Yeah plant count has been a thorn in my side. Dongle had the same problem with her first run in hers too. We both thought they'd get bigger than they ended up, and I foolishly applied BushMaster to keep mine small (stupid thing to do, some only got 6" tall!)

Right now I've got ~160 packed into 5 trays, but am going to veg them for as long as necessary so they are a foot tall and growing when I flip em, no more nonsense! If I had unlimited (free) clones then yes, I'd do 36 per tray and pack em tight and keep em small.

Honestly I didn't weigh em out by plant, would have been a real pain to do that but my bigger "lollipops" mainly Ice and Jock Horror turned out around 3/4 oz per plant, yes. Satori and God bud and Mandala #1 also grew naturally into a lollipop shape, but this round I will prune, top, lollipop, hell I'll give em handjobs if it makes em grow into 1-3 big colas each! LOL

To answer your other questions:

Yes, 1KW over a 4X4 = 62.5 watts per square foot, plenty of light.
3/4 to an ounce, yes, I would veg at least 1 week, maybe ten days. CO2 would help!
If you veg for 3 weeks they'll get very tall and bushy, I would do less for sure.
1lb per light is a nice goal for a new system, I wish mine had done better (my first run in mine I got just 2.5#, attributed to fungus gnats, bushmaster, not enough plants, and overwatering big time at the beginning and flipping em when they were clearly unhappy)

I am trying to get back to at least the .6-.7 grams per watt range in SOG, if I can't pull it off on the next run I guess I go back to soil, or at least regular coco (not chips) and drippers. Also thinking about changing from Pura Vida organics to AN nutes, loved the way it worked in soil!
 

Ender

New member
-wow, great response. I just finished working my way through most of your thread. I admire the work ethic btw. Wish I could trust/find trimmers as dedicated as yours as well, the 36 hour tid bit made me chuckle. :) I'm working my way through Dongle69's thread, PHEW, I could get through it in a night, but to absorb all the info its going to take a week or more. I have learned a ton about space efficiency from both of you already.

-I noticed you made a comment about unlimited clones....well, I'm planning on spending an arm and a leg in seeds for my first run. Our capital will be running low if we wait for the mothers to start getting clones on the assembly line. (real estate rentals are expensive in FLA, but we're looking into lower cost rural areas, (I found a 3/2 for $600 today and some 2/2s are even cheaper!) ..... I don't trust either of the people I know I could get clones from.......so seeds it is for the first run :(. I'm going to spend like, 1k on them. I'm hoping I can get a discount for the bulk purchase.

-160 in 5 trays! impressive. I'm hoping to pull of somewhere in the ballpark of 110-120 in 4 trays.....3', sog style.

-weighing out planty by plant would be crazy and time consuming lol. I was more or less thinking of it as an average form final harvest...

-appreicate the strain reviews. I'm looking into similar ones....

I'm glad that my plan sounds viable, because I do have my doubts....I'm spending the entire month of Sept. reading up on the forums to prepare for the start in October. hopefully its enough time.

Peace.
 

Lazyman

Overkill is under-rated.
Veteran
Hey Ender,

Yeah your plan sounds fine, I'm just assuming you have the basics of power/security/ventilation/money covered, use your head, ask questions and we'll all give you all the feedback and opinions you can stand! ;) Just so you know, I spent the better part of a year planning my first op (4KW total, 3KW flower) and almost as long planning my current one, never hurts to be well armed and well prepared

Roll on brother!
 
M

masterKahn

Just a heads up your planning an illegal commercial operation and you've told us it will be in a rural part of Florida. This isn't a good thing to broadcast.

Get some of DJ shorts gear and it should sell like gold plated bud in your area.
 
best of luck ender, sounds like things are coming together for you....I know you said you'll be under a different name and IP when you post a log but like masterkahn said, careful with what you say. I really cant wait to see what you get rolling....keep us updated on where you're at with it.
 

Ender

New member
Just a heads up your planning an illegal commercial operation and you've told us it will be in a rural part of Florida. This isn't a good thing to broadcast.

Get some of DJ shorts gear and it should sell like gold plated bud in your area.


:) no worries. Florida is quite a big state, and has rural areas from the south all the way to the north .... and I am on a public ip address + public computer (there's hundreds of computers here, and they are wiped on a nightly basis) .... when I do post the journal, it'l be under a different S/N + IP + Computer .... and even if you know it's me, they're gonna have to prove it. I doubt I'm the only one on this site running a couple 4x4 DWCs under some 1ks..... :)

as far as the DJ short thing, I don't really understand ... but as far as quality, I've been all over the country, California included, and Fla is one of the top locations quality wise, though not as much as CA. Price wise, we're pretty inflated, which is why I chose not to bring the OP to CA. LBs go for 3500-4000 here on a regular basis, where as in CA I could get em for 2600. Not that I smoke anymore, I actually quit a few months ago :wallbash:
 

Ender

New member
best of luck ender, sounds like things are coming together for you....I know you said you'll be under a different name and IP when you post a log but like masterkahn said, careful with what you say. I really cant wait to see what you get rolling....keep us updated on where you're at with it.


will do, will do. :)

I am definetly going to have to keep a log my first time around, though I am experienced outdoors and have multiple crops under my belt, indoors is a new beast, and god knows I made a few mistakes on my first run outdoors. I worry I might be starting a little too big, but hey, it is what it is.
 

Ender

New member
Hey Ender,

Yeah your plan sounds fine, I'm just assuming you have the basics of power/security/ventilation/money covered, use your head, ask questions and we'll all give you all the feedback and opinions you can stand! ;) Just so you know, I spent the better part of a year planning my first op (4KW total, 3KW flower) and almost as long planning my current one, never hurts to be well armed and well prepared

Roll on brother!


woah, thats relief, lol, cause I have been planning this for just under a year as well, lol, and the amount of time spent saving up $, buying equipment and learning has really worn me down. (along with a few naysayers, who I have forced myself to ignore and just pressed on) .... I've wanted to quit a few times but thank god for non refundable equipment, it kept me going! (+ a lot of determination) :)
 
M

masterKahn

I have been around the US bud scene from coast to coast also and from what i've seen FL buds don't hold a candle to west coast grows but that's my opinion.

If you get a nice DJ short mother the buds you get could outsell anything else in the area and for more $$ Florida is rampant with the "krip" or what I consider bland low-medium grade sensi. Some solid buds from reputable breeders would clean up in a market like that. Commercial = business so you need to know what your customers want and what they can't get else where. Import some west coast genetics and supplement it with some of the best most flavorful/potent buds you can get seeds of.
 

Ender

New member
I have been around the US bud scene from coast to coast also and from what i've seen FL buds don't hold a candle to west coast grows but that's my opinion.

If you get a nice DJ short mother the buds you get could outsell anything else in the area and for more $$ Florida is rampant with the "krip" or what I consider bland low-medium grade sensi. Some solid buds from reputable breeders would clean up in a market like that. Commercial = business so you need to know what your customers want and what they can't get else where. Import some west coast genetics and supplement it with some of the best most flavorful/potent buds you can get seeds of.


hmm, what is a DJ short? and yeah, "krip" is the main type running around. Importing from Cali would cost me about 1200 in gas to get out there and buy clones. Considering a 10k budget, idk if its worth it though I would love to take a trip out there. Maybe take a greyhound and then drive a rental home, then it would cost about $600-$700 in gas + clones.....

there is def a lack of sativas and top shelf indicas in FLA, so I'm going to try to stick with highest quality indicas possible, since I don't think sativa will be optimal with my plan...I think anything purple tends to make consumers go crazy, even though its nothing special in the grand scheme....though I have smoked some crazy purple strains. I think a solid purple strain could fetch up to 4k a lb in FLA.

as far as seeds, I am spending an arm and a leg! Lol.....seriously. I'm going to purchase 100 or so, maybe more maybe less, still working on the budget....

i'm still debating strain selection. I'm defff going to do multiple strains, but I need to make sure they are optimal sog and can finish nicely in 8 weeks with only a little veg time (cfls) on the clones.

any additional advice in that dept. appreciated....

peace.
 

Ender

New member
plan10x10.jpg


ok -- this is drawn to 10x10 scale, each station is a 4x4 tray. and I will be using a larger bedroom (probably 11x14+), so don't worry about space for the Res..

i'm eactly 2 months away from construction, and a lot of the materials are already purchased.

Also, I will be sealing the room and using CO2 as well. Mothers will be in a seperate room, either in a closet or hydro hut. This is only an early design of it, please feel free to critique and make suggestions...

I'm hoping to pull 1.5-2.0 LB every two weeks on a 8 week cycle.

Clone room + mother + improved grow room designs are on the way

peace...

:joint:
 
hey man
Im not sure where the air is being pulled from and being exhausted to in that pic but in any case that fan will be working really hard. I would use separate fans for the filter and lights. BUT if you're sealing the room for co2 then you don't want to be exhausting air, you want to pull air from outside the room, though your lights and back outside the room. That way you're not pulling your co2 and odor out side at all (maybe push through the lights to avoid suction though small leaks in the reflectors and such, and keep the heat from the lamps out of your fan). Then just have a nice big fan with a big scrubber sitting in the room circulating though the scrubber. Hope i didnt just explain something you were already aware of...its just what i would do.
 

Ender

New member
the fan will be a 10'' ... I think it should be strong enough to handle just the lights. do you think I should go with a 12'' or 14'' maybe?
I don't know much about C02, I'm used to using good ol mother nature :) so I appreciate the insight. I still have a long way to go in knowledge in that area. I'm buying this bad boy --

beyboards_feulcell_contest61804_108-334x343.jpg

http://www.bey-tech.com/CO2Blackbox.html

So yeah, I only planned on running the inline fan through the lights.

I don't totally understand what you mean by having a big fan and a scrubber....
I have an extra 10'' inline can fan sitting around, but i get the idea you mean something different. should I take the carbon filter off the air thats coming from outside the room and through the lights and use it for seperate exhaust from the c02 enriched air?

heres something I read

Dr. Lynette Morgan replies:
It is possible to run a grow room without venting at all, provided you keep CO2 levels up during the day and return CO2 levels to ambient during the dark or night period when plants don't have any need for CO2 (but need O2) and if you control the temperature within the correct rate for plant growth. However, you also need to have control over relative humidity levels within the grow room. Without venting moist air to the outside and bringing in fresh, dryer air, humidity within the grow room will rapidly increase to very high levels as the plants give off water vapor via the process of transpiration. This high humidity level then not only provides the ideal conditions for pathogens to attack, but also slows plant growth. If humidity levels become so high that they prevent the plants from transpiring (and they will very quickly in a warm grow room), nutrient uptake and photosynthesis will be negatively affected and plant growth will slow. Physiological disorder conditions may also develop and the plants could even develop a condition called "oedema," which occurs when excess water is in the plant cells under high humidity conditions. If you control and remove excess humidity as the plants release water into the air then, in theory, there isn't a need to vent and bring fresh air into the grow room. You will need to monitor humidity levels and scrub excess moisture from the air with a dehumidifier unit to maintain a level around 75-85 percent. Good luck with your plants.

so, this means -- 2 exhaust systems ... one to cool the lights, and one for the air in the room itself....right?

thanks for the help, sorry i am asking noobish questions, but I am a newb to indoor and I want to make sure that this project goes right.
 
D

dongle69

If it isn't too late I would advise returning the cool tubes for different air cooled reflectors that make more efficient use of light.
You need to get cool tubes very close to the plants for their light output to match better reflectors.
When the tubes are close to the plants that means the area that the light covers is greatly reduced.
I would definitely go ebb and flow so you can easily move plants around.
If this is for commercial purposes, I would for sure cut down the number of strains that you deal with.
Very smart of you to plan ahead, I bet it is hard waiting!
 
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