Chloramine and Organics

[Joey56789]

I'd say not to worry about it for watering, it's only a real issue when used to make compost teas or to dilute the teas with. As long as you're growing in soil, the organic matter in the soil will tie up the small amount so chloramine without negligible microbial loss.

For straight watering don't worry about chloramine, or chlorine too?

 

[bostrom155]

For straight watering don't worry about chloramine, or chlorine too?

Probably right, i am getting foam in my tea buckets now, never had foam before, so i guess all is well

 

[Mr.Hades]

You could just start up a fish tank with that black and white carbon in the fish filter, and use a filter sponge for beneficial microbes to populate on... Use an aquarium heater and keep it at 76-78 degrees.... Hell even put a fish in it... After a month or two, you keep testing the water until you have very low or zero ammonia and nirites... you will have a tank with perfect water.. everytime you take out you just fill back up with water and you have an endless supply of de-clorinated water with beneficial microbes.

 

[Clackamas Coot]

Checking with you local water company might be a good place to start to see what's up with your local water on several levels.

I did yesterday and was pleasantly surprised but then again our water comes from the snow melt from the Cascades so we're starting with high quality water sources.

 

[habeeb]

I have done some testing the last couple days to determine a few things:

-EM-1 at 2ml a liter will "eat" ammonia, waiting results if they will 'eat" chloramine tap water (chlorine / ammonia)
-bubbling water does not get rid of chloramines or ammonia even after 7 days
-EWC at 1/3 a cup for 5 gallons will "eat" chloramines , but will not get rid of ammonia
-carbon and zeolite will take away chloramine / chlorine / ammonia
-ascorbic acid works, but the stuff they sell that's "vitamin C" is not "natural" , lab made. did a while back so not sure on ammonia
-used these "organic" food vitamin C pills ( $30 for 90 pills) and they work for chloramine / chlorine / ammonia

I have not tried R/O filters and add-on filters for chloramines.

I would say the easiest, cheapest and fastest is carbon with zeolite. As you can see there are many ways, and I'm sure more to be discovered but for now I will stick with carbon and zeolite if I want water without chlormaine

also note as I have read certain types of carbon are better then others at removing chlormaine, as I hear block filters for R/O systems will not brake the chloramine bond, also hear zeolite will only take in so much ammonia and needs replaced frequently, I've read putting zeolite in the sun will take out the ammonia ( yet to be determined by me )

 

[caljim]

Great thread, I was just starting to gather posts from the forums to bring together a colection of chloramine removal strategies and found this thread here.

I've been just chucking a handful of compost into a 5 gal bucket and bubbling it for a day or two before the ingredients for a tea are thrown in. My logic is that the handful of compost is sacraficial. It gives the chloraines something to act on and break down into chlorine which can then be bubbled off.

 

[bostrom155]

-EM-1 at 2ml a liter will "eat" ammonia, waiting results if they will 'eat" chloramine tap water (chlorine / ammonia)
-bubbling water does not get rid of chloramines or ammonia even after 7 days
-EWC at 1/3 a cup for 5 gallons will "eat" chloramines , but will not get rid of ammonia
-carbon and zeolite will take away chloramine / chlorine / ammonia
-ascorbic acid works, but the stuff they sell that's "vitamin C" is not "natural" , lab made. did a while back so not sure on ammonia
-used these "organic" food vitamin C pills ( $30 for 90 pills) and they work for chloramine / chlorine / ammonia

I have been using Vit C capsules and using half a capsule for 5 gal, the chloramines are broken down instantly. I thought the ammonia would be bubbled out. Guess not. Let us know about the EM-1

 

[bsound]

What about using Dechlor, the stuff that removes chlorine and chloramines from fish tanks? Is there any reason not to use it? I always let my water sit to evaporate the chlorines\chloramines because I figured there was a good reason not to use this stuff--but i'll start trying now. This will save me a lot of hassle.

Many aquatic flora and fauna are sensitive to the presence of Chlorine in water sources. To assure a safe environment it is critical to provide the highest quality water supply free from contaminants. Instant DeChlor is a highly concentrated formulation that provides instant removal of Chlorine with only one drop per gallon. It also reduces the toxicity of heavy metals such as copper, cadmium, mercury, silver, zinc, lead, nickel, manganese, and sodium selenate which may be harmful to aquatic life. For Chloramine add two drops per gallon. "The Choice of Aquarists for over 50 years." Available Sizes: 1/2 oz, 1.25 oz, 4.0 oz, Quart

 

[magiccannabus]

Even for just plain watering, I really think chlorine can be a killer. My plants were so much more sick until I started letting my water sit for a day or two. We have chlorine in our water here, but if I had chloramines I'd remove them too.

 

[Clackamas Coot]

bsound

It's hard to say because the Dechlor company provides no information that I could find regarding the ingredients used.

Having said that, I've used other aquarium products in my saltwater tank and some of these products do some really weird things like binding organic mater, dropping the PH to extremely low levels, etc.

If you're going to use any of the products marketed to aquarium shops you might want to consider one that can provide you with good information.

BTW - have you called your local water company to see if they're using chloramine? Not all water suppliers do so that might be a good first step.

HTH

CC

 

[bsound]

I just found this post using the search:

Removing Chloramine From Water: Chemical Reducing Agents

There are two primary ways to remove chloramine from tap water. The first is through the use of inorganic reducing agents such as thiosulfate. Thiosulfate (S2O3- -, which actually looks like -OSO2S-) is an inorganic chemical that is typically dissolved in water, usually as the sodium salt. When added to water containing chloramine, a reaction takes place, destroying the chloramine. The electrochemistry of sulfur compounds can be complicated, and different researchers report different products of this reaction (extrapolated from reactions with chlorine itself, not chloramine). The products have been suggested to include sulfate (SO4- - and HSO4-),10,14 elemental sulfur (S),10 and tetrathionate (S4O6- -),11-13 and may depend to some extent on the conditions, including the pH and the relative amounts of compounds present. John F. Kuhns (inventor of Amquel below) has indicated that he believes that the reaction resulting in sulfate is the most frequently observed. The reaction for this process is shown below:

S2O3-- + 4NH2Cl + 5H2O à 2SO4-- + 2H+ + 4HCl + 4NH3

Thiosulfate is also equally suited to dechlorinating free chlorine in water, and it has gained wide use in marine and freshwater aquaria. Unfortunately, the ammonia that is produced as a result of the reaction is still toxic. Consequently, thiosulfate alone is not always adequate for eliminating toxicity from chloramine.

Other products, such as hydroxymethanesulfonate (HOCH2SO3-; a known ammonia binder15 patented for aquarium uses by John F. Kuhns16 (sold as Amquel by Kordon and ClorAm-X by Reed Mariculture, among others) can be used to treat chloraminated water because they both break down chloramine and bind up the ammonia.

The reaction of ammonia with hydroxymethanesulfonate is mechanistically complicated, possibly involving decomposition to formaldehyde and reformation to the product (aminomethanesulfonate; shown below).15 The simplified overall reaction is believed to be:

NH3 + HOCH2SO3- à H2NCH2SO3- + H2O

Even more complicated is the reaction of hydroxymethanesulfonate with chloramine, or chlorine (as Cl2 or HOCl). In this case, the products that are formed have not been established.

So are these useful products? That is, do they eliminate all toxicity from chloramine and provide none of their own, either by themselves or through their degradation products? I cannot answer that question. Almost certainly, using them is better than not using them if there is chloramine in the water. Is the toxicity eliminated for even the most sensitive larval invertebrates? Again, I don't know. Without knowing what the degradation products are, or without detailed testing on a variety of very sensitive invertebrates, I don't know how one would conclude that they are satisfactory (or not). Maybe such tests exist, and if so, I'd be pleased to hear of them. In the end, my recommendation is to remove chlorine and chloramine in other ways, such as through an RO/DI system as described below.

Removing Chloramine From Water: Activated Carbon

Another method for removing chloramine from water is with activated carbon (as is contained in most RO/DI systems). In a two step process, the carbon catalytically breaks the chloramine down into ammonia, chloride, and nitrogen gas

C + NH2Cl + H2O à C-O + NH3 + Cl- + H+

C-O + 2NH2Cl à C + N2 + 2Cl- + 2H+ + H2O

where C stands for the activated carbon, and C-O stands for oxidized activated carbon. In this case, as was found for thiosulfate, the product includes ammonia, which is not bound significantly by activated carbon. Consequently, treatment of water with activated carbon will need to be followed up by some method of eliminating the ammonia.

In the case of a reverse osmosis/deionizing system (where carbon is usually part of the prefiltration prior to the RO membrane), the ammonia is partially removed by the reverse osmosis system. The extent of removal by the RO membrane depends on pH. At pH 7.5 or lower, reverse osmosis will remove ammonia from 1.4 ppm-Cl monochloramine to less than 0.1 ppm ammonia. The DI resin then removes any residual ammonia to levels unimportant to the grower.

To conclude what it says, using products like dechlor create unhealthy levels of ammonia which need to be taken care of. They now make products that rid chlorine, chloramines, and ammonia all in one fell swoop. Here's a link to one of them.

http://www.aquariumplants.com/product_p/fe789.htm

I'm not sure if our tap has chloramines in it. If it doesn't, what does that mean exactly? So there is only chlorine then? Aren't chloramines and chlorine basically removed at the same time with the same methods? i.e.: evaporation.

I'm also not really dealing with organics, but I was just curious b\c I wouldn't think it would be healthy for the soil either way. I could hardly believe it wouldn't make a big difference if you were just using the chlorinated water for watering? Hopefully that's the case, though!

 

[Clackamas Coot]

Chloramine is converted to chlorine when it connects with organic material. Some people use bubbling to remove the chlorine and then add some compost or earthworm castings. Humic acid also works according to some of the compost tea gurus.

To answer your question directly - chloramine cannot be removed through evaporation or bubbling.

HTH

CC

 

[AnonyMoose67]

Would that product 'dechlor' remove chlorine as well as chloramine? I am in an area where the tap water isn't only harmful to plants but to people as well. Would using dechlor still be considered organic?

 

[habeeb]

I would never use a chemical additive to get rid of chlormines / chlornie / ammonia


I recently bought a RO system, and it breaks the chloramine-ammonia and gets rid of the chlorine, but not the ammonia, you need a DI system after the RO system, but yes I understand RO systems are not the most ecological way to deal with polluted water but until I find something better, the RO system is staying