How many beans does it take ?

[Owl Mirror]

Hello everyone, I'm new to growing and am going to attempt to breed my plants as I move forward. Now, since I got a pack of this and a pack of that which contained 10 seeds each, I'm wondering how many beans I should realistically pop in the search for that best male & female in the strain?
Legally, I'm allowed 12 live plants at any one time so, I have started out popping 3 of each. I realize I'm only able to select from those that are growing but, I'm interested in what process a real experienced breeder goes through in searching through their stock for those best plants to be used in any breeding program.
Eventually, once I have 100's of beans I could afford to germ a bunch and then search through them for a few select plants and then destroy the rest.
Today, I don't want to throw any of the plants away yet, I can't be sure I've selected the very best breeder plants because of the number I'm selecting from. Will my efforts be worthwhile or might I do more harm than good?

Understand, this is for low quantity, individual grow-op and not for any commercial purpose or distribution.
My thought is to grow 2-3 of each strain and whichever strain throws a male, allow it to open-pollinate the rest. This way, I feel I will get both a direct strain breeding as well as a cross-breeding.
Is my thinking on this subject correct or am I going down a road which is inadvisable ?

 

[GMT]

Hi Owl, do you a deal, you tell me how many lottery tickets I need to buy in order to win a decent prize, and I'll tell you how many seeds you need to plant to find a keeper worth breeding with, fair? You are asking an impossible question that no one on here can answer, because you are essentially requesting a fortune teller.
If all you want to do is play, then you need 1 male and 1 female.

 

[KnuckleHedd]

I hear a lot of people say they pop 3 from a pack or 5 from a pack, etc. I stopped doing that a long time ago. You should germ the whole pack. And with todays polyhybrids even that's not enough. Unless you're using a true IBL you're going to get numerous phenos....if you only pop a few seeds, you won't see all the phenos. If you want to pop a few of these and a few of those you should seek out IBL strains and there aint as many of those around anymore. Serious Bubblegum is a good IBL with a high degree of uniformity.

 

[Mickymouse]

Just grow what you want.take best male pollinate best female but dont over pollinate.Do just a few buds.

 

[Kal-El]

If you are new to growing, you should learn to grow very well first.
Breeding is an art, I have been growing for 20 years and now I think I can breed.
What you are planning on doing is just making seeds, that is not breeding.
Ideal conditions you would germ at least 50 seeds to find 1 keeper.
If you are just wanting more seeds, do an open pollination and have fun.

 

[j6p]

My thought is to grow 2-3 of each strain and whichever strain throws a male, allow it to open-pollinate the rest. This way, I feel I will get both a direct strain breeding as well as a cross-breeding.

Wouldn't that convert all of your strains into mongrels, which have been crossed with a male of dubious genotype/phenotype? Leaving you without choices and options?

Why not run at least ten seeds of each strain individually, select the females you like, choose promising males to pollenate them, and isolate desirable pheno's via selective breeding? Then as you start finding keepers for each strain, clone them, produce seeds, etc.

Then think about crossing with other strains. I'm no breeder, just my take.

 

[Owl Mirror]

Thanks everyone, yeah I know this isn't real breeding and most likely just making seeds.
I guess I need to produce enough seeds so that I can grow out 50 beans and not worry about running out of seeds.
Thing is trying to do any of this in a very small space with a limited number of plants.
I can only have a max of 12 rooted plants, seedlings, veg & flower all count towards that total.

Hopefully if I do get more seeds they will be OK to germ 50 at a time and throw out the weaklings and such.
I'm going to be growing some easier short week strains for my personal use but, I have these Nepali & Ethiopian seeds which I would like to obtain more seeds from.
Maybe, if I can afford it, I can build a two-chamber flowering room that will house the one's I want to breed while the other will be used for my regular growing.

 

[GMT]

really you only need 1 flowering chamber, a couple of clones can be kept on a shelf with a cfl 24hrs a day. They only need to be hidden away if anyone is due to call round.

 

[j6p]

Maybe, if I can afford it, I can build a two-chamber flowering room that will house the one's I want to breed while the other will be used for my regular growing.

Yes, that would be the way to collect the desirable phenos. Also they could be vegged as moms for extracting clones from time to time.

 

[PrinSeshJasmine]

.

 

[3dDream]

How many seeds does it take? It takes the same number as the number of licks it takes to get to the center of a tootsie-pop.

If you are just playing around you could also select by seedling. So if you have a number of seeds you can kill based on seedling shape. This way you can quickly search w/in a group. If you don't like what you see try the other seedling types. So you could pop 50 seeds and select only 12 of a type. Next grow pop another 50 and try another group. You are basically culling by seedling leaf. I hope this makes sense.

 

[yortbogey]

all good growerz know....ALWAYZ...crack more......
I'd say to really find a true keeper.......10 beanz of one specific strain......
run thru them......gro 'em out keep on ly the best.....of the best.......and work w/ those.........everytime I crack beanz it 50 to 100.....just better for over alll
longterm useable numberz...................culltheweak....only the strong survive.......

 

[Owl Mirror]

hi owl

this is one of my favorite reads on the site. http://icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=86477&highlight=select+open+pollination

it may have some perspective about your projects.

Maybe I am assuming, but for preservation of seed/diversity, best bet is to use as many individuals as possible. This is different for every breeder, and seedmaker so do not get down on yourself. making the best due out of what you have to work with is commendable by any standard. very proud of you owl.

this equation is helpful when restrictions are forced and an unlimited population/space is not available to use.

Ne = 4 * (# of Males) * (# of Females) / (# of Males) + (# of Females)

it is explained more on p.2 of the link

Thanks Jasmine !
I should be able to follow that formula ;>}

Thanks everyone, for all your input.

 

[j6p]

hi owl

this is one of my favorite reads on the site. http://icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=86477&highlight=select+open+pollination

it may have some perspective about your projects.

Maybe I am assuming, but for preservation of seed/diversity, best bet is to use as many individuals as possible. This is different for every breeder, and seedmaker so do not get down on yourself. making the best due out of what you have to work with is commendable by any standard. very proud of you owl.

this equation is helpful when restrictions are forced and an unlimited population/space is not available to use.

Ne = 4 * (# of Males) * (# of Females) / (# of Males) + (# of Females)

it is explained more on p.2 of the link

Thanks for the link, Jasmine that thread contains a lot of useful information. The equation plug-in shows why we need m/f balance to maximize the population's diversity.

For example if you use 1 male and 1000 females 1001 total plants...
effective breeding population = (4x1x1000)/ 1001= 3.99
But if you use only 5 males and 5 females...
Ne= (4x5x5)/ 10= 10

They also discuss selection of males, for example by selecting the "middle" group of males. I tagged the pollen thread; it gives me a lot to think about ...

Owl, thanks for raising these questions!

 

[Black Ra1n]

Should be talking how many packs, not seeds. Took me lots of trial and error before I found my wife lol.

 

[j6p]

Should be talking how many packs, not seeds. Took me lots of trial and error before I found my wife lol.

Yep. I concur.

 

[Owl Mirror]

OK so, from what all of you have said and, with what I have to work with currently.
I should get as many males and females as I possibly can from these two strains and simply make seeds. After I have made hundreds upon hundreds of seeds, then I can sprout 50-100 and select from those seedlings the very best to begin actually breeding for traits.

 

[Mickymouse]

Never know what there going to be until you flower.

 

[Owl Mirror]

Never know what there going to be until you flower.

Are you saying I would need to take those 50-100 seeds in to flowering before culling them ?
If so, this isn't something I can do.

Perhaps I should concentrate on just growing my meds and not on this idea of breeding. I'll still make seeds but, I don't have the room, equipment or experience to grow out 100's of plants.

 

[BurmeseDragon]

I was thinking that having plants always in veg, from seed...then taking cuts to flower with would be ideal. I'd say they mean 12 flowering females, but yep always interpret the law as the worst case scenario as that is what they do...they think that is the best, most of the time it seems. There is the reveg option, but that makes for a nervous grow. You just can't burn those lower parts and well you have to leave flowers. Well, I have never re vegged, it seems they put out shoots without a flower. It gets to complicated keeping a small grow and having vast ideas.