Some kind of deficiency. Please Help!

[DiscoBiscuit]

B.C., I used to work for Germans and one thing I learned was some things seem to be opposite. A comma is used as a decimal and a period is used to separate categories, etc. That said, das some hot shit.

I agree, 5.7 doesn't sound like it would grow those plants. In fact, your first post sounds like the most likely scenario, given the facts. Anyways, hope to see them straighten out.

Blue Dot, didn't mean to disagree so narrow minded with your posts. I'm no expert and there may be some misunderstanding on my part as to which range is best. Thanks for sharing the info.

 

[catmanrob]

your plants are changing there system of nutrient intake, I dont know if you had flushed before changing your photoperiod from veg, if so then its not a lockup. You may be running out of "medium nutes" if you dont have a macro additive system. from what the plants sound like Id definitley go the Magnesium route of epsom salt. If that doesnt work, which it should, then they could be in serious need for a higher feed of pottasium, try the latter last. are there any brown spots on the plants? Thats usually an indication of a mag deficency as well.....hope I can help???

 

[catmanrob]

do your leaves that are damaged curl upward or downwards, and how are they settling? slumping towards plant or still in a regular upright growth position? Hazes are a pain in the ass, so dont trip...

 

[catmanrob]

sorry for not reading completly you stated an upward curl, its definitley a magnesium deficiency, try epsom youll be cool....most commercial soils start to loose there micros around this time, not to mention locking up without proper flushing....hope Ive helped..

 

[Strainbrain]

The deficiency certainly looks exactly like one I had, which I fixed by getting my Mag situation nailed down. I'd take the advice of those who suggest looking there.

-s

 

[B.C.]

No offence, but I think you could throw all the mag you wanted at these plants before they got transplanted and it wounldn't have done any good. Hesi, the nutes he's using has plenty of mag in it, and they did grow great for a month or month and a half with it, by the looks of it. I understand that some strains are mag hogs too, but 2 different strains, at the same time? nah... If ya go back and read, he tells ya they were indeed root bound. Those are some good sized plants to have been in somethin smaller than 2-2 1/2 gallon pots, wouldn't yall agree? It would sure be nice if he'd posted some results! No matter who's right about it..... Anyhoo, I thinks it's always better to find a cause and a cure, rather than jus trying to treat the symptoms. Take care... BC

 

[Smooth B]

Easy one. Magnesium deficiency. Mix up 2 teaspoons (10ml) epsom salts with a gallon of water. (about 4 liters). Water with this solution once. Texas A&M rate

Check out the sticky by Mynamestitch here in the cannabis infirmary...

Blue dot is pretty smart and right on. Your rate to drench is too weak, though. Keep trying. I bet your young.

 

[DiscoBiscuit]

If you get your pH in the correct range, you don't need any additional mag supplements. More mag at this point will only make the problem worse.

 

[Martin1285]

Hello Guys!
It's me again. I figured out some stuff. I got hands on a proper ph meter. And I mesured the tap water I use. I tested it before with old lagmus paper (unacurate).
With the ph meter it said my tap water has a ph value of 8,5!!! Ahhhh. Got proper ph down.
And they are getting better. I tested dolomit lime on one plant and the epsom salt thing on another. But I think holding my feet still and giving them only ph corrected water is the best. Less is more, maybe

I'll post some new fotos in two hours (when the lights go off, because HPS fucks up my digicam)

peace

 

[DiscoBiscuit]

Nutes will bring the 8.5 down, how much depends on what you're using and the nute strength. pH meters can be finicky so make sure to follow the manufacturers instructions for storage, cleaning and battery life. Once you get familiar with the potential fly-away nature of pH meters, you'll pretty much know when you're getting a bogus reading.

Lime won't lower pH, it will only raise it. If your soil components are already to high, lime is not what you want.

Even with a water pH of 8.5 your soil can still bring it within range, depending on how hot the soil is. This is why it is good to measure the pH of the runoff, you get a reading of all the components.

 

[Martin1285]

PICS

PICS

here are some Pics.
they are getting a little better but the leaves still curl the shit out of themselves. What can I do about that?

peace

 

[DiscoBiscuit]

looks over watered but much better than before. nice BIG plants.

 

[B.C.]

( sigh... )

( sigh... )

Martin you need to stop and think how well these plants grew before they became rootbound. You weren't PH-ing yer water, you didn't add lime or epsom salt, and *THEY -GREW- GREAT!* lol... You jus can't grow big plants in small pots with soil! that's just the way it is! I'm not sure why some of you posting in this thread cannot understand this??? lack of experience with it I spose, I dunno???

The soil yer using is nutrient -balanced-, so is the Hesi nutes that yer using, if you add things to increase yer mag now, yer gonna throw that nutrient balance off and end up with more problems. You don't need it! *Remember how they grew before...

I'm glad they are doing better now, but there's no doubt in my mind at -all- as to why though. *Keep in mind, it won't take these plants long at all to out grow those little 10 liter ( 2.6 gallon ) pots there in now either! ...... Do yerself a favor Martin, keep it simple like you started out, and fer Pete-sakes transplant sooner than you did this time!

Best of luck! BC

 

[B.C.]

Btw...

Btw...

Even with a water pH of 8.5 your soil can still bring it within range

It's the humates from the compost in the soil that does this. Humates/humic acid will buffer the PH in soil and allow a plant to feed regardless of what the soils PH is. That's how these plants got so big in the first place without PHing the water. Humic will also allow a plant to take in more cations ( ions of nutrients ) and even compounds of cations that it couldn't otherwise absorb before. Humates are the essence of organics.

For those that worry about PH growing in soil, I strongly suggest you do a search on organics and PH, and what role humates play in the plant feeding. I think yul see why most organic growing folks don't worry about it. I haven't for years, and I don't have any problems with deficiencies. Neither did Martin untill his plants got rootbound. :wink:

Jus thought I'd throw it out there for those that might not have known. Knowledge is a growers power! Take care... BC

 

[DiscoBiscuit]

I used to grow with potting mix that didn't include humus. I had to get the lime dialed just right or I had defs. Now I'm using some peat based stuff that includes humus. Best stuff I ever used and it's $2 a bag. The plant growing in this stuff is green from top to bottom. Past grows suffered defs but it's hard to imagine this one dialed in any better. Tested the runoff out of the bag at about 5pH but lime took care of that. I'm using chemical nutes but I still plan to continue the humus.

 

[Blue Dot]

Martin you need to stop and think how well these plants grew before they became rootbound. You weren't PH-ing yer water, you didn't add lime or epsom salt, and *THEY -GREW- GREAT!* lol... You jus can't grow big plants in small pots with soil! that's just the way it is! I'm not sure why some of you posting in this thread cannot understand this??? lack of experience with it I spose, I dunno???

The soil yer using is nutrient -balanced-, so is the Hesi nutes that yer using, if you add things to increase yer mag now, yer gonna throw that nutrient balance off and end up with more problems. You don't need it! *Remember how they grew before...

He IS adding things that are throwing off his nutrient balance, it's just not Mg.

He is adding too much Ca and it's causing a cation antagonism to the Mg.

How do I know he is adding too much Ca, because the pH of his tap tells me so. It's a pH 8.5. Ironically calcium carbonate (lime) (CaCO3) will top out at a pH 8.4 in water. (for some reason it only tops out at a pH 7.0 in soil(less) but that's another thread.)

So his hard water ( which could be confirmed hard by a tds reading of his tap) is full of lime (liquid lime actually). The carbonates are causing the pH to be too high but it's not the pH that is locking the Mg out, afterall Mg loves a high pH.
It's the fact there is an imbalance in his rootball and it starts with his water.

So, by adding more Mg now it will offset the Ca antagonism and will cure the Mg problem until he goes into flower and will then see a potassium def because all the Ca AND Mg will then cause ANOTHER cation antagonism to the K so he needs to add K-Mag (potassium sulfate and magnesium sulfate) to his tap or just start with RO and add only hesi.

Interestingly, it's not only the rootbound that causes his problem but the fact that many like him start in peat, the plants grow nice even with hard tap but it doesn't take long for all that Ca and to accumulate in the small pot thus the fast growing plant slows because the Ca is now dominate in the little volume of the container and that's why repotting just starts the cycle all over aging, ie great fast growth until the Ca reaches a critical level then starts locking out the Mg AND K so repotting is only a temporary solution to the problem of high pH hard water.

 

[B.C.]

hmm...

hmm...

I have a friend here in the same town that I live in that grows with a hydro setup. He told me about 2 weeks ago the water here has a PH of 7.0-7.2 and the tds are up around 4oo-425, so it's some purty hard water. Same as it was years ago when I ran hydro and tested it, btw. He uses RO water, but I've always used it right outta the tap for my pete based soil grows, and I don't have any problems at all. So I respectfully disagree with you Blue Dot.

You could use any water you want, but if they are severly rootbound yer gonna have problems. There's no way around it. Besides, to be honest, I have a hard time believing tap water is going to be so far off of neutral. Also, if my water is so hard, why isn't my PH higher than what it is? and why hasn't it affected my plants the same way? they thrive with it. BC

 

[Blue Dot]

I have a friend here in the same town that I live in that grows with a hydro setup. He told me about 2 weeks ago the water here has a PH of 7.0-7.2 and the tds are up around 4oo-425, so it's some purty hard water. Same as it was years ago when I ran hydro and tested it, btw. He uses RO water, but I've always used it right outta the tap for my pete based soil grows, and I don't have any problems at all. So I respectfully disagree with you Blue Dot.

You could use any water you want, but if they are severly rootbound yer gonna have problems. There's no way around it. Besides, to be honest, I have a hard time believing tap water is going to be so far off of neutral. Also, if my water is so hard, why isn't my PH higher than what it is? and why hasn't it affected my plants the same way? they thrive with it. BC

Because you don't have hard water. You have water with dissolved solids but those dissolved solilds aren't CaCO3. If they were your pH wouldn't be near neutral, it would be ~8.4. I don't know what's floating around in your water but it's not liquid lime. Hell, RO water has a pH of approximately what your water is so it's sure not lime.

BTW if you have a hard time believing tap can be so far off neutral you wouldn't want to drink MY tap.

it has an everyday pH of 8.4 with a tds of 880 ppm.

That's why I'm intimately familiar with the need to supplement with K-Mag to OFFSET the cation antagoism caused bythe Ca in hard water.

The point I was really trying to make in my last post but left out (lol) is that containerized plants are critical in the proper ratios of nutes because the rootball is in such a confined space, ANY little imbalance will throw off the balance and cause a deficiency and it doesn't take too much of any one substance to do this.

This, compounded with the fact that a rootbound plant cannot physically take in nutes causes a situation where if the nutes are not perfect every time a deficiency will occur.

This is the problem, the nutes (hesi) are balanced but are being added to another unbalanced nute solution (his tap water) and then the overall balance is now out of balance.

You MUST start to view your tap as a nute solution. Afterall, it's not 0 ppm so in all actuality it IS a nute solution, it's just an unbalanced one.

NO tap is a balanced nute solution.

 

[10k]

Hello Guys!
It's me again. I figured out some stuff. I got hands on a proper ph meter. And I mesured the tap water I use. I tested it before with old lagmus paper (unacurate).
With the ph meter it said my tap water has a ph value of 8,5!!! Ahhhh. Got proper ph down.
And they are getting better. I tested dolomit lime on one plant and the epsom salt thing on another. But I think holding my feet still and giving them only ph corrected water is the best. Less is more, maybe

I'll post some new fotos in two hours (when the lights go off, because HPS fucks up my digicam)

peace

That pH corrected water is in essence feeding them weak P from the phosphoric acid you used to lower the pH of that hard tap water..
I'm glad you've gotten a good pH meter, a run-off measurement would be good to know when you have a chance.

(yes BC, I know about humates, doh, but he had said his run-off was running below 5.5 in the start of this thread and I had thought he was running in straight up peat for his medium)

here are some Pics.
they are getting a little better but the leaves still curl the shit out of themselves. What can I do about that?

peace

They'll get a lot better imho, if you'll give them a foliar spray feeding of that hesi bloom @ 1/8th strength.

 

[Blue Dot]

That pH corrected water is in essence feeding them weak P from the phosphoric acid you used to lower the pH of that hard tap water...

Huh?

Imagine in a gallon of 400-800 ppm water the amount of CaCO3 in there (at least 200-300 ppm of Ca) that must be able to raise the ph to 8.5.

Now add 1 or 2 DROPS (less then 1 ml) of phosphoric acid to that gallon to lower the pH to 6.5 or whatever.

According to http://www.angelfire.com/cantina/fourtwenty/articles/download.htm this only adds about 8 ppm phosphorus to the mix.

Thats 8 ppm P to about 200-300 ppm of Ca.

THIS is exactly what I'm talking about when I talk about nute imbalances.

Plants are so sensitive to ppm RATIOS is not even funny and people have a hard time grasping it.

PPM's (ratios) are like microbes. Most people never see them in real life so never think about them but they are there and can be seen under a microscope and even though they are not seen by the naked eye they can do just as much damage as PPM (ratio) imbalances that are never seen.