Bubbles for bubblers

[Haps]

Air stones are made for fish tanks, they solve a different problem in that application. There is no reasson to use an air stone, three years of bare tube, in both dwc and E & F buckets have proved that to me. The first year I kept using pond stones which are quite good in some of my units, and compaired results in both quality and yield. The bare tube produced slightly more, which I attribute to the kinesis factor of the large bubbles and waves, and also the air pumps deliver unrestricted air through the tube, no resistance.

If an air stone makes you happy, use em, but they give your roots no benefit. Or rather they gave my roots no benefit, which is all I can say is true.
H

 

[cravin morehead]

after reading this thread, which is great btw, i purchased some diffusers here-

https://www.aquaticeco.com/subcategories/3533/Sweetwater-Air-Diffusers

i was having probs finding a retailer for ones mentioned on this thread. so i went to aquaticeco.com. they had a pretty good selection and decent prices. i don't work for them, i swear!!! but, i ended up buying some 12" sweetwater difusers. sounds like they'll work good. i'll put some info up on em if you guys want. after i finish this run, i'll change my dwc res to use these. it'll be a couple weeks though.(day 56 on some Toejam)

 

[Carboy]

those diffusers looks bad ass, I want a couple, but I need one that will hook up to the standard airstone tubing. I don't know how I could hook up an air pump to 3" pvc pipe lol maybe someone can help with that part.

They are made w/ a 3/4" Male Pipe Thread to feed air into the bottom.
In most sewage installs, they have very large compressor driving air down a large line. These "saddles" have 3/4" Female fittings that the diffusers screw into.
All you need to do is go from your air pump size up to 3/4" pipe -- easily done in trip to local hardware.

cravin morehead I always thought those sweetwater diffusers looked nice -- never had any personal experience w/ them tho. Be great to hear how they work out.

I don't want to mislead anyone. The diffusers i mentioned aren't for everyone in every situation by any means. Keep in mind that any rez of any size needs cool temp and air introduced some way. I can't think of any exceptions.

 

[eglider]

Thanks for the link Cravin, that place has got some nifty cheap plumbing stuff too for fabbing up hydro.

Still having daymares about pits of percolating poop bubbling merrily away. Probably shouldn't dwell on such images under the influence of the herb. I wonder if theres alligators in that pool?

 

[cravin morehead]

sweetwater diffusers

sweetwater diffusers

bump for these diffusers. i got 3 of the 12" sweetwater diffusers. installed 2 in my res. (runs on 5gal). im using a 4 port air pump, nothing special or too powerfull, and i love the amount and tiny size of the air bubbles. these things are heavy. didn't need to glue or weight them down. these are the best pics i could come up with. they don't really do them justice. also included are pics of my new titanium chiller set-up. i pump thru the chiller, and cold water return is fed thru a $2 sprinkler head mounted upside-down thru the lid. helps spread out the cool return water, aerates a little more, and sprays a decently small mist onto roots. all in all, i would highly reccomend these diffusers for some serious micro bubbling action...

 

[Carboy]

bump for these diffusers. i got 3 of the 12" sweetwater diffusers. installed 2 in my res. (runs on 5gal). im using a 4 port air pump, nothing special or too powerfull, and i love the amount and tiny size of the air bubbles. these things are heavy. didn't need to glue or weight them down. these are the best pics i could come up with. they don't really do them justice. also included are pics of my new titanium chiller set-up. i pump thru the chiller, and cold water return is fed thru a $2 sprinkler head mounted upside-down thru the lid. helps spread out the cool return water, aerates a little more, and sprays a decently small mist onto roots. all in all, i would highly reccomend these diffusers for some serious micro bubbling action...

Thanks for the Sweetwater review. I thought they looked nice but had no direct experience.
Good looking chiller ya got there -- what are the specs? What temp do you prefer?

CB

 

[cravin morehead]

hey carboy-- i just set up the chiller 2 days ago. from what i've read, i will keep temp at 68 *. this chiller will maitain a temp within 1* of what its set at. its a titanium chiller, so copper lines will not affect my nute mixes. heres a pic of the specs on the box it came in.


i got it brand new and cheap. ive had it running for a couple days now, temps never strayed in either direction. should really help this summer.

 

[daemos]

OLD B - Great thread mate, good to see a fellow ozzy dropping hints and tips. Gotta few questions myself but its late so im off to bed have a good one.

Ez.Mos

 

[Albireo]

Air stones are made for fish tanks, they solve a different problem in that application. There is no reasson to use an air stone, three years of bare tube, in both dwc and E & F buckets have proved that to me. The first year I kept using pond stones which are quite good in some of my units, and compaired results in both quality and yield. The bare tube produced slightly more, which I attribute to the kinesis factor of the large bubbles and waves, and also the air pumps deliver unrestricted air through the tube, no resistance.

If an air stone makes you happy, use em, but they give your roots no benefit. Or rather they gave my roots no benefit, which is all I can say is true.
H

This is completely correct. Air stones are made for looks (aquarium) and for protein removal. The smaller the bubble, the more surface area. The more surface area, the ability to remove protein increases (ie protein skimmers).

Breaking surface tension is the key to increasing DO. Small bubbles accomplish this but so does open tubes and pumps pointed at the surface. On OG a guy had a DO meter and ran some tests. Running a pump pointed at the surface created the highest DO levels in a DWC tub. I believe areoponics had it beat, but that is a different ballgame.

 

[Carboy]

This is completely correct. Air stones are made for looks (aquarium) and for protein removal. The smaller the bubble, the more surface area. The more surface area, the ability to remove protein increases (ie protein skimmers).

Breaking surface tension is the key to increasing DO. Small bubbles accomplish this but so does open tubes and pumps pointed at the surface. On OG a guy had a DO meter and ran some tests. Running a pump pointed at the surface created the highest DO levels in a DWC tub. I believe areoponics had it beat, but that is a different ballgame.

I'm calling bullshit. This is absolutely positively with 100% certainty WRONG.

Makers of diffusers measure DO at several levels in a column while bubbling daily. Why do they do that? Quality check of the manufacturing. If it isn't producing a certain DO at a certain level in a controlled environment, something is not right w/ the material, manufacturing equip. etc and needs to be corrected. I assure you, their meters will trump the one used for OG. There is NO DOUBT -- there is NO QUESTION -- more oxygen is absorbed when the bubble first contacts the water than any other time. This continues as the air rises. A small additional effect at the top because of the mechanical action, but most of the O2 available in the bubble has already been captured below.
For the final time:

The larger the volume of air, the colder the water, the taller the water column, the finer the bubbles, the more dissolved oxygen up to 100% saturation.

This ain't some voodoo shit --- this is physics. And until the Laws of Physics change, the above sentence will always be true.

CB

 

[Carboy]

hey carboy-- i just set up the chiller 2 days ago. from what i've read, i will keep temp at 68 *. this chiller will maitain a temp within 1* of what its set at. its a titanium chiller, so copper lines will not affect my nute mixes. heres a pic of the specs on the box it came in.


i got it brand new and cheap. ive had it running for a couple days now, temps never strayed in either direction. should really help this summer.

Hey Craven --- looks really nice. That should last you a long time. I think you are right about the titanium lines. At least, i hope so because i picked up a real similar model for my fogger/cloner. It wasn't rated by HP but has a close gallon rating to yours. Does as advertised, keeps it right to the degree. I guess they warm also -- which is kinda hard to relate to in July where i live, but in the winter oughta keep all right w/ the world too. Let me know if there are any particulars i need a heads up on and i'll do the same. How are the Sweetwaters doing for ya?

Others might be interested in this:

http://waterlandscapesupply.com/yahoo_site_admin/assets/docs/WLS_Cat09-D.10993304.pdf

Great source for airstones and diffusers on page 113. All different sizes, wish i'd found this place sooner. Doesn't give the air pump specs. needed but they have great tech support and are really nice people. Phone # at bottom of page. Water Landscape Supply is the name. Mainly wholesale to koi/water garden dealers, but they sell direct too. Other goodies in the catalog too.

CB

 

[daemos]

I'm calling bullshit. This is absolutely positively with 100% certainty WRONG.

Makers of diffusers measure DO at several levels in a column while bubbling daily. Why do they do that? Quality check of the manufacturing. If it isn't producing a certain DO at a certain level in a controlled environment, something is not right w/ the material, manufacturing equip. etc and needs to be corrected. I assure you, their meters will trump the one used for OG. There is NO DOUBT -- there is NO QUESTION -- more oxygen is absorbed when the bubble first contacts the water than any other time. This continues as the air rises. A small additional effect at the top because of the mechanical action, but most of the O2 available in the bubble has already been captured below.
For the final time:

The larger the volume of air, the colder the water, the taller the water column, the finer the bubbles, the more dissolved oxygen up to 100% saturation.

This ain't some voodoo shit --- this is physics. And until the Laws of Physics change, the above sentence will always be true.

CB

Great post...

Im def gonna be gettn me some air diffusers for my R DWC, Ive been looking at these ones http://www.pointfour.com/Slides/diffuser.html

They stae they are the BEST air diffusers on the market...

HERES A BIT OF INFO ON THEM:

One of the simplest ways to dissolve gases, such as oxygen or carbon dioxide, in water is to introduce the gas as small bubbles - the smaller the bubbles the more efficient the absorption of the gas.
The Point Four microbubble oxygen diffuser produces a cloud of extremely fine bubbles - 100 to 500 microns. This is much finer than graphite or carborundum diffusers porous hose and because the diffuser is flat, the bubbles do not coalesce as with circular section diffusers.
The Point Four diffuser uses an ultra fine pore ceramic plate which ensures uniform bubbles across its entire surface. The ceramic is a clean and inert material.

• One of the most efficient diffusers on the market — uses less gas and requires fewer diffusers to achieve the same results
• Robust construction — the ceramic plate is set in a rigid enamel coated aluminum frame and will not break if frozen
• Easy to install and simple to operate — requires no power or complex attachment procedures
• Full customer assistance and technical support — we are oxygenation specialists and will assist you in sizing and configuring your system
• Warranty — 2 years covering defective materials and workmanship

lucky for most members this company is in Canada they are called point four sytems.

Found these reference tables on the site too.

dissolved oxygen refernce tables: fresh water - http://www.pointfour.com/PDFs/Reference/table_I_DO_freshwater.pdf

saltwater - http://www.pointfour.com/PDFs/Reference/table_II_DO_saltwater.pdf

so hopefully this info helps all you growing chemists out there...

 

[cravin morehead]

sorry took me so long to respond. carboy- congrats on ur chiller bro!!! im in so cal, its getting hot, can't believe i made it without one. thanks for that link, great info there. daemos- good info links, thanks for those...keep us posted on those. i checked them out too.

so far, those sweetwaters are working just like the day i installed them...
the only issue i had with the chiller was i needed to insulate the tubing to keep it from dripping condensation, 10 minute fix. i had insulation from my cloner, so just had to wrap 'em up.

had a late start on my clones this round, so nothing to show yet. just a couple 2" tall babies...Toejam and Banana x OG.

good thread y'all
CM

 

[buddin_904]

hello all, you guys seem to really know about DO airstones and chillers. recently i hooked up a rez set up but the pH kept swaying out of an acceptable range. if left sat in the hot room it dropped to around 4. then i employed an airstone and it jumped all the way to 7.9 how do you guys deal with this. do you pH to a certain number and bubble it and deal that it raises pH? i dont no what you guys do, just looking for a little insight is all.

also how much was that chiller. that seems like a good alternative to solve my rez temp fluctuations, fixing my pH problem?

 

[lysol]

Get the reflectors for your car windshield, cut them 3ft x 1ft for a 5 gallon bucket, wrap the bucket like a blanket, they claim to cool your car 44F, I find it holds my bucket right at 72F with no frozen water bottles, 90-105F outside 77- 85FF ambient temps, without the heat blanket it hits 85F in the water, meaning it has the potential to cool over 10 degrees. I went from 30+ water bottles for the first 2 days, I couldnt keep up with it, bought these things for $5 and now I dont need a single bottle, although I try to remember to put 1 at the hottest part of the day to reduce the temperature swing, now if I try I can easily get it down to 60F if I want. Probably will do that during flowering.

Also are you sure it is not the medium or plant, I dont think temps cause more then a .1 fluctuation. My calibration fluid came with a chart and it looks like youd need like 100 degree discrepencies to go a full point off

 

[Carboy]

hello all, you guys seem to really know about DO airstones and chillers. recently i hooked up a rez set up but the pH kept swaying out of an acceptable range. if left sat in the hot room it dropped to around 4. then i employed an airstone and it jumped all the way to 7.9 how do you guys deal with this. do you pH to a certain number and bubble it and deal that it raises pH? i dont no what you guys do, just looking for a little insight is all.

also how much was that chiller. that seems like a good alternative to solve my rez temp fluctuations, fixing my pH problem?

That's a hell of a swing. I don't know if i can be of any help or not, but how about some more info? Like rez size, temp, starting ph, starting ppm (RO water or tap?), nute brand/concentration. I assume you are using a meter. Calibrate and maybe even double check w/ drops. Something is screwy --- that's really to drastic to be caused by air. Air my contribute to a drift up, but can't see how it could cause anything as drastic as you're experiencing. Bet someone here can find the solution w/ more facts.

Temp control would definitely be a great next step and will help alot of things. And in hydro, i'd rate it right up near the top in importance. But like the air deal, it might be contributing to the ph deal.

The little chiller i use for the cloner like Craven's was 200 bucks.

daemos Great find on the fourpoint diffusers. From their site, i'd say they know what they are talking about. Start talking bubbles in micron and you are talking champagne !!

CB

 

[daemos]

That's a hell of a swing. I don't know if i can be of any help or not, but how about some more info? Like rez size, temp, starting ph, starting ppm (RO water or tap?), nute brand/concentration. I assume you are using a meter. Calibrate and maybe even double check w/ drops. Something is screwy --- that's really to drastic to be caused by air. Air my contribute to a drift up, but can't see how it could cause anything as drastic as you're experiencing. Bet someone here can find the solution w/ more facts.

Temp control would definitely be a great next step and will help alot of things. And in hydro, i'd rate it right up near the top in importance. But like the air deal, it might be contributing to the ph deal.

The little chiller i use for the cloner like Craven's was 200 bucks.

daemos Great find on the fourpoint diffusers. From their site, i'd say they know what they are talking about. Start talking bubbles in micron and you are talking champagne !!

CB

I thought some of you bubble heads would like the fourpoints. they do look good i must say and im glad you looked into the info i supplied.

I live in Australia like the original thread starter and can only get these fourpoints from a whole sale aquaculture supplier here australia called aquasonic.com.au gotta find out from them who is the closest stockists of these fourpoints.

I also have a query about a air pump im thinking of purchasing. i will get pics and specs up so you will have a bit more info on it hopefully someone will tell me if its the required amount LPM required for pushing air through the MBD75 pointfour diffusser. Take care peeps!

Ez...Mos

 

[cravin morehead]

buddin- after u added air, did u reset the ph? if so, did it hold? thats a big swing for just adding air... need more info... i got my chiller from my friend from a fish store for $250. good price for this chiller. they are available here-http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/pet_supplies.cfm?c=3578+4900
look around you can find them on sale for good prices.

lysol- good idea bro... i use this insulation wrap from lowes. its like silver colored bubble wrap, works real well. 1 roll covered my res and all the walls in my mom cabinet. can't remember how much it costs,but sure it was under $15.

daemos- i really considered those 4 points also. went with sweetwaters cuz i always wanted to try em, but next time i set up another res, i'll probally try those 4 points. if you get em, let us know about em. micron size bubbles seems awesome!!!

 

[daemos]

buddin- after u added air, did u reset the ph? if so, did it hold? thats a big swing for just adding air... need more info... i got my chiller from my friend from a fish store for $250. good price for this chiller. they are available here-http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/pet_supplies.cfm?c=3578+4900
look around you can find them on sale for good prices.

lysol- good idea bro... i use this insulation wrap from lowes. its like silver colored bubble wrap, works real well. 1 roll covered my res and all the walls in my mom cabinet. can't remember how much it costs,but sure it was under $15.

daemos- i really considered those 4 points also. went with sweetwaters cuz i always wanted to try em, but next time i set up another res, i'll probally try those 4 points. if you get em, let us know about em. micron size bubbles seems awesome!!!

So I finally got around to emailing aquasonic (the stockist here in australia that have these four point diffusers) to see if anybody stocks these in my state as they are a wholesaler. so hopefully i will hear from them soon and get a price on those MBD75's

My question to you guys as im new to R-DWC and i know its a little off the topic but it still has to do with the topic of diffusers... is that how big of a air pump should i get (LPM) to run 10 of these MBD75's?

now i say 10 but im going to be running a 9 bucket system i want to put one in my controller tub (would there be any positives if i was to do this? if not then i will only run the 9 MBD's to the buckets no point in having 10 then is there).

Any help would be greatly appreciated guys! Id rather get the info from more expierienced growers than working out the specifics only to go out and buy an air pump to find out it aint efficient enough to run the diffusers.

Thanks in advance peoples...

Here is the link to the specifics of these diffussers: http://www.pointfour.com/Products/Diffusers/specifications.html

 

[Carboy]

I've never done R-DWC, so keep that in mind.

From the literature:
up to 0.75 LPM
X 10 = 7.5 LPM is the ideal recommended
Max. is 2.2 LPM
X10 = 22 LPM is the largest pump you'd use.
Keep the pump between 5 and 20 lpm and you oughta be fine.

Is there a Rez, besides the buckets and controller? If so, you could split the outlet from the pump -- use half in rez w/ different type diffuser and half for bucket diffusers you've chosen. Sonic makes good smaller size pumps. I'd call or email 4pts. after i made an initial layout and run it by them.

Should be a great setup ------ CB