How to stress for true females?

[ripman]

Hi,

I'd soon like to start some little breeding and I have been documenting myself for some time...
I've understood that not all plants that grow like females, without any herm traits, are true females... now maybe not everyone believes in this theory but I don't want to take risks...

My question is: what is the best practice to stress test a true female? Should it be stressed during the flowering period? Is it preferrable to do it on a clone of the keeper, and in this case, when, during vegetative or from flowering onwards?
How is the plant to be stressed? Light leaks in flowering darkness period? 35 degrees and up temperature? No feeding just watering? If you stress the plant, how long you do it before knokwing the plant is a true female and, going back to normal environment, do you still get nice buds and keeper-like smoke?

Last 2) question:

1) Is it possible to stress the plant in vegetative only and realize from preflowers if it got herm? This way one can avoid to pollinate other plants

2) Should also males be stress tested?

I hope we can make a concise easy-to-read complete report, maybe with links to threads discussing stress testing and true females and references, as I couldn't find a guide on such subject. Maybe this thread could become the guide?
Cheers
Ripman

 

[hoosierdaddy]

You haven't searched hard enough if you can't find any info on that topic.

FWIW...a true breeding female will not light stress. You may well throw it into a stall, or cause it to reveg, but heavy light stress should not bring out any hermie in a true breeding female.
And there is not much to glean from a vegging plant.

It is all about selection...perhaps do a search with that term in your criteria?

 

[ripman]

Thanks Hoosierdaddy for letting me know... I've tried a little on title searching, best I've found is this thread:
http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=74951&highlight=true

I've actually read the thread which contains the quote in your signature, but it is really long and there is much debate, and as far as I remember there was no explanation on how to stress the plant to test if it is true female...

So you say that it must be done in flowering and true females are not sensitive to light...
Once I've read that a way to turn any female to herm was to use a 12-12 cycle with an hour of light in the middle of the dark period... do you mean that true females wouldn't herm with that? Would it be the correct way to stress test a plant?

What do true females do when they are flowered way over maturity? In that case do they herm as well, or suppose you'd want to make some feminized seeds from a true female, is colloidal silver the only way to go? Or does not even that work with true females?

Hope you'll be back on this thread, if anybody wants to add anything, I'm here to learn!

 

[♥Mo♥]

Thanks Hoosierdaddy for letting me know... I've tried a little on title searching, best I've found is this thread:
http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=74951&highlight=true

I've actually read the thread which contains the quote in your signature, but it is really long and there is much debate, and as far as I remember there was no explanation on how to stress the plant to test if it is true female...

So you say that it must be done in flowering and true females are not sensitive to light...
Once I've read that a way to turn any female to herm was to use a 12-12 cycle with an hour of light in the middle of the dark period... do you mean that true females wouldn't herm with that? Would it be the correct way to stress test a plant?

What do true females do when they are flowered way over maturity? In that case do they herm as well, or suppose you'd want to make some feminized seeds from a true female, is colloidal silver the only way to go? Or does not even that work with true females?

Hope you'll be back on this thread, if anybody wants to add anything, I'm here to learn!

In my experience the light leak or schedule of 1 hour light to interrupt the dark cycle works for stressing to prove the true female. In regards to a female over maturing, almost all cannabis will throw the occasional nanner when grown and left to become extremely over mature, but it is still true female. Regarding coloidial silver, yes that is "one" way of causing a female to give male parts where the solution has been applied. There is some very in depth information here if you search hard enough. Hope this helped a bit.

 

[ripman]

Yes Mo, thanks for letting me know, I believe hence the best way is to veg a little the plants, make 2x clones, name them and run some with stress flowering while you flower normally the original and make mother stock vegetating the other clones...
This way you get the original to be smoked and understand if they are keepers; the stressed tell you if they are true females and if they get pollinated by herm and develop lower quality buds, experience is still testable on the original; once you find a plant which combines nice smoke and is true female, you kill the other clones which are becoming mother stock and remain with the keeper, which you can get clones from and allow such clones to be seeded for breeding purposes.
Does my reasoning work or am I missing some points? Is there perhaps a easier way to get to the same results?
Thanks
ripman

 

[hoosierdaddy]

My layman understanding is the same as Mo's.
You can always use a female for breeding that is not really a full on true breeding plant. Just because it hermies when stressed does not mean it won't be a good parent...BUT, it probably should be used for personal use, and not for seeds to be passed around, unless the gifted understand what it is they have.

FWIW, I have been around folks who grow weed for about 35 years now, and I have only actually seen one true breeding female mother plant, that was confirmed a true breeder, and was kept alive for at least 15 years that I know of. I imagine she still exists, and know here progeny does.

 

[ripman]

So you mean that, for instance, most of the F2s you receive as freebies from seedbay and boo are probably not from tested true females?
If you are in Cali I believe that there many people don't bother about true females: once you get a good plant it starts circling as a clone... probably only true breeders which start big projects test that, I believe DP, with the quantity of herms you get from their plants is not one of such

 

[purpledomgoddes]

what exactly is the scientific definition of a 'true female'?

please distinguish for clarity definitions of

1.'true female'

2.'female'

how can a gardener tell the difference?

what is the bright line rule separating the two geno/phenotypes?

 

[ripman]

A true female is a female plant which, even under strong stress, remains 100% female instead of herming. It is hence a plant that from a genetic point of view, doesn't carry the herming trait in its genes, which appears to be dominant as far as population %ages tell.
Maybe someone can elaborate in more scientific or correct terms, but the substance is what you find above.
True females are apparently "wanted" as they apparently allow to have an inferior %age of hermafrodites in successive generations.
If you breed with a female plant that is particularly prone to herm it looks like its progeny will herm in similar terms, and seen that we want sinsemilla and stable plants, herming is not very good for us, hence this is why breeders should perhaps look for true females before selecting plants for breeding

 

[purpledomgoddes]

A true female is a female plant which, even under strong stress, remains 100% female instead of herming. It is hence a plant that from a genetic point of view, doesn't carry the herming trait in its genes, which appears to be dominant as far as population %ages tell.
Maybe someone can elaborate in more scientific or correct terms, but the substance is what you find above.
True females are apparently "wanted" as they apparently allow to have an inferior %age of hermafrodites in successive generations.
If you breed with a female plant that is particularly prone to herm it looks like its progeny will herm in similar terms, and seen that we want sinsemilla and stable plants, herming is not very good for us, hence this is why breeders should perhaps look for true females before selecting plants for breeding

skeptical about the term 'true female', in science. how would this be genetically described?

how could you really discern the 'true[ness]' of the female?

is this to say that the 'true' female is immune to colloidal silver, gib acid, light stress, or other agricultural methods of reversing sex; or @ least producing viable sex organs?

or, are the plants simply more resistant to responses to chemicals, and environmental influences that alter sexual reproductive methods?

seems one would want a plant that is capable of reproducing if/when/else a gardener decided to manipulate this/that.

have had hermies that produced female offspring that was superior to lofty 'elite' genetics, or 'elite' seeds.

am very interested in the actual genetic/scientific difference between a 'female' and a 'true female'. how would the genotypic description be written, say, in a punett's square?

 

[arvid b]

http://nomercysupply.nl/nomercy/en/node/269

Female seed

- Interview with Cees (mr. XX) from Highlife spring 1999 -

Lately there has been a lot of fuss about 100% female seed. Quite rightly, because this could be the big change in the world of the growers. As you know,now it is possible to fill, without (illegal) cuttings, the gardens with female plants, which moreover as a seedling bring in more than the cuttings. Highlife was able to be the first to publish pictures of this miracle of technique and manipulation. But what is even more interesting: we have an interview with the improver of these plants, who will lift the veil and share with us the techniques and materials who until now where only known by a handful of people. This person is a devoted lover and has no need at all to reverse his knowledge into stone-hard currencies. He is a man with a vision and in his story is a message, as well for the improvers of seed as for every blower in Holland. Because of the discretion, we call the super freak ‘Mister XX’, what, in view of the matter is a very appropriate name.

Highlife: ‘Dear XX, could you tell us what has driven you all those years? Because it is such a complicated matter, it has cost you lots of time and you encountered a lot of set-backs.’

Mister XX: ‘Indeed I was already experimenting for years, before I got some results. But I am a kind of person who digs in the heels of matters that interest me, certainly when the rest of the world also has no solution for it. By all set-backs I suffered on the road, the desire to succeed is getting stronger. The only disadvantage of all those years of experimenting was, that it was nearly not smokable. Belief me, this matter is for people who want to grow their own smoke not recommendable. But luckily I got that phase behind me.

Why did you work all those years at producing female seed, and what will you do with it now you ‘cracked’ that formula?

My goal was to make of really potent XX plants minimal a natural healthy quantity of female seed. When I, after ‘eternal’ experimenting, was ready, I began to cultivate this seed, to see if it, after a while would decline. Then I discovered that the material where I work with, was also useful to bloom more fully, in a shorter period then we are used to. But, we will talk about that later, because this is not so interesting for me. Certainly not, because I will wizen up the breadgrower, who mostly use pesticides and other stuff, just for the money. Because I belief the chance is very small and because other people in this world where marketing female seed, I did not want to keep this to the persons who also where interested in these matters: in other words: I want to pass that the stuff that I use, is free of poison and work very well.

You have our complete interest, so tell your story and begin at the beginning.

To produce XX seed, you need a 100% XX plant. To determine if a plant really is pure and if this is a XX-plant, can not be too difficult. To disturb the cycle regularly, by using light to recall shockeffects, is a good method to commit hermaphrodites. It is optimal if you, while shocking, give the some more CO2. But, make sure that you give them in time trace elements. By all these strange moves they use a lot of extra, especially magnesium, I noticed. When you finally have one or more pure females, then they will be the base of the improved species. But, look out, because there are very little pure XX plants, how strange this may sound. Inattentive breeding in the past, with especially Asiatic plants, have genetically in depth produced much hermaphrodites. So, when a plant is not pure XX, the pollen can also not be pure XX. This is very frustrating, because all the work has been for nothing. But, if you have found a XX-plant, we go look further. After years of experimenting and seeking, I was three years ago able to cover the XX plant with it’s own dust. But it did not really hurry up, because the length of the cycle was very disappointing to the yield.


Most people would be very happy if they would come this far, but we understand that this was only the beginning for you.

Yes, this gave me a kick, but more like: ‘And now we really get started!’. Now I can also solve this problem. Today I can manipulate every XX plant that I choose, as you can see on the pictures.




You see a plant who is showing on three branches, three different kind of inflorescences. It is a strange and unusual sight, but very exiting to me. Because this was for me the way to good and potent female seed. But also (this appeared later) the way to a 30 to 40% more and full bloom of the ladies, and a shorter blossom-time of almost a week. With this I demonstrated the possibility of the plant to treat one ore more branches different. As you can see, I can take care of full bunches of male flowers in a XX-flower, who is producing a lot of pollen.

If one ore more full sisters of these plant are in full bloom, put this manipulated plant between them for fertilization. Now the fertilization will take place only if the plants has full blooming tops, and that will give you lots of seed. Only a plant with some big bunches of male-flowers can fertilize a big room of plants.

This was a nice story but the question stays how to get those male flowers in that plant. We have waited long enough, now we want to now what means you use. Go right ahead!


I want to tell you a lot, but not everything. There are different materials where you can manipulate with. The material I have chosen for is Gibberelic acid, that is also known as the German name GIBBERELLINSAURE. But at this moment there are five different performances of Gibberelic and there is a big chance that the producer has other compositions. The reason I have chosen for this, is because I let it tested by Dr. Alink,, a toxicologist from Wageningen. The result I got in writing n it says black on white that it is harmless for man or animal. This test is executed without questions or any opposition, what says that it is possible for everyone to test materials on harmfulness. So, in other words, we can work much harmful as we all know. And it costs: nothing!

Gibberelic acid is harmful on its own. It is strange that the material has not been added on the list of pesticides who are not allowed in nature.
But you can spray Gibberelic on the plants?

No, that would be very easy. First you have to dissolve it. To dissolve a synthetic acid as Gibberelic is a story at itself. Now I use Natriumhydroxide, a very aggressive material what is used as a purgative. Natriumhydroxide solves very easily and it is not toxicological not dangerous. To find the right proportion is the next question. Then you find out that the condition of the plant sometimes asks for a specific proportion, who deviates to far behind the comma. If you can not weigh to specific, than it is not going to work out. It is that accurate. The difference in doses are so small, that making it is more than a precise job. A pharmacist as a friend will be very useful, but he also can weigh at 0,05 grams. But especially choosing the right moment is the biggest problem.

If all these things are right, then it is just a matter of spraying, and ready we are, I mean Mr. XX is.

Yes, that is true. Surely reality is far more complicated but I lifted a big piece of the veil. I did this because I think that all blowing people in Holland are entitled to know what is happening. So, here I give a piece of my experiences in these matters. I hope that the people who are busy manipulating will test the materials they use in toxicological values. This is free of charge and the examinatiors don’t ask annoying questions. For me it is the only way to inform people in which materials you use, those which are mentioned on the package. The time that growers and improvers had to work with poisoned materials such as Colchicine, is really long gone.

So far the story of an interesting and driven person who, without any financial meaning wants to share his knowledge and wants to warn against the dangers of the use of pesticides. After this interview, we got a handful of seeds to try out. We keep in touch about this project.

N.B. The Amsterdam cannabisseedcompany ‘Dutch Passion’ is the only company in the world which will sell female seed. It is not strange that we questioned them how to use poisoned spraying-materials. Owner Henk van Dalen says: We also tested Gibberelic acid. In the market garden it is a common material. Gibberelic acid is a hormone and stimulates in a very small way the male bloom and has for the growing of the plant unfortunate side-effects. We do not use hormones at all, because the plants are acting strange. The material we use is a simple chemical material, you can think of a salt solution and is absolutely free of poisoned materials.

 

[medmaker420]

dj did a write up on hermies and being able to rid the hermie trait within the next two crosses. So from what he wrote I would assume even if your favorite is a hermie you could breed that trait out in future generations either way.