The ego.

[weatherboxes]

most human characteristics follow a normal (bell shaped) distribution.

But most measures for IQ are simply a measure of how well an individual takes that specific IQ test.

Also behavior is contextual and depends on the setting. The rocket scientist may be a genius in the lab but fail miserably, and act stupidly, when lost in the wilderness.

Is there a smart gene? Smart doing what? Yes, a person can have a greater genetic propensity for understanding math or music or whatever. If a kid has a math genius gene but their math skills are never developed then their math genius gene is not fully utilized.

That's what I mean by the dialectic. Its the interaction between the nature (the math genius gene) and the nurture (the environment) that produces the outcome.

I couldn't agree with this more. There may be a smart gene if you count it being a persons upbringing. One man's brain might be more fine tuned than the others. He or she picks up information or receives it in a completely different or more efficient way. For example, Michelangelo claimed that he was able to see the figure he wanted to sculpt within a block of marble and remove the pieces around that figure until it resembled what he envisioned. But, that advantage is of no use until they are exposed to whatever it is their brain will thrive with. It's like if Mozart was born in a very rural tribe in Africa instead. Would he have ever reached his full potential as a musician if this was so? This also brings to mind the idea that homosexuality is a gene. If this is so, would a boy or girl who was never exposed to a gay society ever really have those same sex urges? AHHH!! I don't know!?

 

[weatherboxes]

Why isn't medicine pure, he ask me.

You can do the same procedure on two patients with everything being as equal as humanly possible and come up with two different results. Most of that is due to ego.


I make eletrical circuits. I can make them respond the exact same way millions of times. I can do it an Infinite number of times. As long as all things are as equal as humanly possibly my results will be perfect.


Did you know they say a baby is naturally afraid of snakes upon birth.

They are also afraid of falling, upon birth.

... How is a varied result due to a persons ego if everything is performed as equally as humanly possible? Some peoples bodies respond differently to stress. Just as certain MJ plant's do. This doesn't have to do with the ego. And it doesn't separate the brain from ego necessarily either. Just because your results aren't 100% the same every time you perform an experiment doesn't make that practice impure. You were bringing negative connotations with your view towards doctors before. I was just trying to clear their name overall. Every aspect of life has corrupted people. People are just bad. It's a fact. But that doesn't write off the good people. As far as a humans instinctual response to pain and danger. That is an acceptable truth. The brain controls the central nervous system. It responds to hot and cold when you touch something. As far as babies being naturally afraid of snakes.. maybe. I seriously doubt it though. I've seen plenty of infants blindly walk into or get themselves in a dangerous situation involving animals, heights, machinery, or whatever. They don't realize the danger until having the experience or until a mature adult explains the danger to them in what they were doing.

 

[weatherboxes]

"A child is born without any knowledge"

A baby knows the difference between a cigarette burn and a gentle caress. A normally developed baby inherently knows that the cigarette burn is bad and hurts while the gentle caress is good and feels comforting. To say otherwise denies that we are physical beings developed over millions of years of evolution. Our bodies possess great knowledge and intelligence.

"And when a child is born the first thing he becomes aware of is not himself; the first thing he becomes aware of is the other."

Absolutely. "Taking the role of the other" is and essential process in the socialization. We can only learn of ourselves through understanding others. What is it that Mark Twain had to say about travel? We can only understand where we've come from by comparing it with somewhere else.

The inability to "take the role of the other" is where humans fail. When we don't to consider the other and base our actions based only on individual selfishness we ending up murdering and performing other heinous acts. The socio-path has no consideration for "the other".

The great social-psychologist George Herbert Mead defines the "self" as comprised of the "I' and the "Me". With the "I" being the individual, immediate aspect of the self and the "Me" being the objectified part of the self. The "Me" is like when "take the role of the other" with yourself. Its the ability to take a step back from the "I' and see your person from the outside and consider individual behavior contextually.

Interestingly, one anthropological theory posits that the development of the individual in society did not occur until the concept of an individual soul. That is, seminal forms of Homo Sapiens only knew the group and not the individual. They acted together as an inter-subjective group like a flock of birds or a school of fish.

My question is: Is the fact the homo sapiens are self aware and have an "ego" fundamentally maladaptive? No other organism on the planet does such damage to their own kind or such damage to their own environment.

The latin translation of "homo sapien" is "wise one" or the "one who knows". I would say homo sapiens, being ego based, are the one who THINKS they know. I'm going to stay away Freudian definitions and am using ego here in the traditional meaning, i.e, synonymous with arrogance.

The importance of the psychedelic process is that it leaves one's ego/arrogance in a puddle in the corner of the room. Consider that the psychedelic experience has historically been a fundamental rite of passage to adulthood. Unfortunately we no longer have the social structure to support it except in a recreational mode.

Your post is "dualistic". It denies the intelligence of the universe and our very bodies. Figuratively cutting off our heads from our bodies. Descartes totally fucked western philosophy when he convinced all that "I think therefore I am"

Also, the Judeo-Christian tradition, because its mono-causal, fails to consider the dialectical nature of the universe.

Anywhose, just some thoughts in response to your post weather...

I agree. Babies are born with instinct. Does that count as knowledge? Maybe. Just as a baby lion is born with the instinct to drink from its mother and stay close to her for protection. The lions instinct also causes it to go for the jugular to make a kill. It knows that it is a weak spot on the body. But is it because it saw its mother hunt this way? Or maybe it just truly is born with this knowledge because over time it became a genetic trait. The post was not an attempt to demean the intelligence of the universe. I think it is however important that one knows we would be a very unintelligent species if it wasn't for human interaction which develops ego. As a species we have the conscious ability to determine right from wrong in ways that other animals cannot. Our bodies may be instinctual, but as we grow our minds become more moral and ethical. Perhaps, the psychedelic experience allows one to leave their own ego behind. But, I don't believe that you can leave it behind forever. The ego is too much of a part of us. I believe that a higher level of thought (evolution) allows one to recognize and accept their ego. To hinder their own arrogance that society gave them or in a lot of cases took away from them. Your ego is formed to fit within the society so that it can advance; so that the human race can evolve.

"One man kills somebody - he is a murderer.

And the same man in wartime kills thousands - he becomes a great hero. The society is not bothered by a murder, but the murder should be committed for the society - then it is okay. The society doesn't bother about morality.

Morality means only that you should fit with the society.

If the society is at war, then the morality changes.

If the society is at peace, then there is a different morality."

Touches on your idea of individual selfishness. I think it's more of societies selfishness as a whole.

 

[weatherboxes]

Doctors are really handy when you need a boob job too.

I find myself so much more at home with science than the study of the so-called mind.

I can design a perfect electrical circuit and to me that is only thing that is pure. Doctors spend twice as much time as an engineer in the university, but in the end their work is not pure.

I am glad we have doctors though, from time to time. They are always there if you need something sewed up or maybe a drug you can't get on your own.

I'm sorry I just interpreted those statements as a stab at doctors. The study of the mind is a science. I don't think there is a separation. Why is the mind.. so-called? Our definition of purity may be different or construed man.

Main Entryure Pronunciation: \ˈpyu̇r\ Function:adjective Inflected Form(s)ur·er; pur·estEtymology:Middle English pur, from Anglo-French, from Latin purus; akin to Old High German fowen to sift, Sanskrit punāti he cleanses, Middle Irish úr fresh, newDate:14th century 1 a (1): unmixed with any other matter <pure gold> (2): free from dust, dirt, or taint <pure springwater> (3): spotless, stainless b: free from harshness or roughness and being in tune —used of a musical tone cof a vowel : characterized by no appreciable alteration of articulation during utterance2 a: being thus and no other : sheer, unmitigated <pure folly> b (1): abstract, theoretical <pure research> (2): a priori <pure mechanics> c: not directed toward exposition of reality or solution of practical problems <pure literature> d: being nonobjective and to be appraised on formal and technical qualities only <pure form>3 a (1): free from what vitiates, weakens, or pollutes (2): containing nothing that does not properly belong b: free from moral fault or guilt c: marked by chastity : continent d (1): of pure blood and unmixed ancestry (2): homozygous in and breeding true for one or more characters e: ritually clean4: having exactly the talents or skills needed for a particular role <a pure shooter in basketball>

 

[Hash Zeppelin]

I feel that every person's purpose on earth is to eventually become fertilizer. Also to fuck and have kids, thus making more fertilizer. The ego is the thing that keeps us from realizing it.

 

[FarOut1]

Weatherboxes I agree with you, one is lucky to loose there ego for one hour never mind the rest of their life.


With Psychedelics one will Hopefully be Humbled by the Experience of complete ego loss(if they get there but even if they don't) Humbled to the point of a prolonged loss of arrogance, but to loose the ego completely, permanently, isn't what one is striving for...


Sorry Randude but all bodily parts from brains to bowels are scientific and consistant. We aren't just random matter are we?


Ohm Nama Shivaya

 

[weatherboxes]

You are really all over the place WB. I talk about what is pure to me. I tried to make that clear. I am not looking for a fight either. I don't believe in imaginary friends (religion) and pretty much anything magic. No spirits for me thank you.

Science and the mind are unrelated topics. In science you have consistancy. What you and I are doing now is not science and that is what shrinks do.

Doctors for humans have the toughest time, medical doctors. Most of the illnesses that people have are mental. In an animal if they are sick it is real almost every time. My dad did have a crazy poodle with an eating disorder.

i don't think i'm all over the place at all.. i'm just devil's advocating and trying to bring connections that I see to your attention. i am certainly not looking for a fight either. we have both been on ball; just disagreeing. its all in the sport of debate and i have enjoyed debating with you . i fully realize what is purity in your mind and it's completely different in mine. and that's perfectly ok bro! also, i think that the mind is related to science. psychology and psychiatry are science. they may be based upon theory and even ideology but that doesn't make then unscientific.

Weatherboxes I agree with you, one is lucky to loose there ego for one hour never mind the rest of their life.


With Psychedelics one will Hopefully be Humbled by the Experience of complete ego loss(if they get there but even if they don't) Humbled to the point of a prolonged loss of arrogance, but to loose the ego completely, permanently, isn't what one is striving for...


Sorry Randude but all bodily parts from brains to bowels are scientific and consistant. We aren't just random matter are we?


Ohm Nama Shivaya

No man.. we are actually just star dust.. pure energy! OOOOOoOOOooOoohhHH AhhhhHhhhh. lmao.

 

[GMT]

Freud is great, if you happen to be a middle class white woman in her 40s living in the early part of the last century. If you aren't then non of his studies relate to you at all.

 

[killabrown420]

The Old Man and the Sea by Hemingway has some great ideology about some of the things you guys are discussing. The whole nature vs. nurture and realizing your hidden potential through sheer necessity to survive.

 

[weatherboxes]

The Old Man and the Sea by Hemingway has some great ideology about some of the things you guys are discussing. The whole nature vs. nurture and realizing your hidden potential through sheer necessity to survive.

Hemmingway is my favorite author to date. he's punctual, short and sweet. yet so damn descriptive. The Sun Also Rises is my favorite by him. apparently, if one were to drink as many times as they do in that novel they would die from alocohol posioning.

 

[devilgoob]

Sanity too is defined by the society that you live in.......in some parts of the world you could be deemed as being insane for doing things that in another part of the globe might be acceptable..

gyspy....smart post! Some people just don't recognize the psychology of weed/cultural belief differences dealing with that.

kaotik:yea, they are smart genes...but not all are the same, the same one that makes a genius is also the same gene that predisposes them to schizophrenia (I dont have the abstract link) There's also asperger's that may make a person have a high IQ, think faster and use less brain to do the same thing. I dunno that theyve found the gene, but they did a parental study.

GMT: what can I say, Freud is great..anything that I think about a subject, I will look up Freud's thoughts and they will be the same (except for all mental illnesses arising from sexual abuse, which he later strayed away from and couldn't argue)



the DSMIV has all sorts or things listed as practically insane...but usually go on to say unless it's part of their culture.

I really really dont like defining anything, including the ego... for me..they only definition I give it is "the ego is anything that exists" A number of things convince me of this including the ego of a plant, which does not have a mind colloquially speaking, but it's DNA is smart and is basically thinking. Just think about it: your brain is just what you DNA wants anyway, you might as well call your DNA a program to the physical psyche and the mechanism which drives it and everything in our universe: any conceivable energy.

A light beam shines onto a tomatoe plant, the light causes a reaction to produce food that will feed me..if I rely on food to live, then it's part of my ego because I believe when you eat food it becomes you! The food suddenly gains consciousness? ya.

I could go on forever and no one would care to believe, listen, perceive or anything. I am one of those people who do not go around spouting off what I have learned..rather I try to originate my ideas from myself, which is impossible because I am two beings joined (a life: sperm cell...another life:the embroyonic cell) and rather just trained to do what I see right to my survival...including suicide which philosophically I believe to be a form of programmed cell death but on another level.

Anyways...ego =anything that exists. I am sure many of you understand that..maybe some buddhists in here mights believe that our universe is a collective unconscious that we try to figure out by calling it god or making it a powerful protecting father figure which we invented because we are afraid of death. If I offended anyone, I have no proof of anything....I am not saying I am right. I am trying to be right of course, but I wont.....lol...and I dont wanna be.

I really like to mend psychology and philosophy, it's a good way to explain crap.

does anybody want to hear more? I will keep typing just to try to get my thoughts out or understood (currently I have no girlfriend to bore)

 

[ka0tik_kreati0n]

Hemmingway is my favorite author to date. he's punctual, short and sweet. yet so damn descriptive. The Sun Also Rises is my favorite by him. apparently, if one were to drink as many times as they do in that novel they would die from alocohol posioning.

honestly I never gave the sun also rises a chance in college. I just got cliff notes. LoL.
the main character really pissed me off.

 

[BobbleheadJed]

Fucking egos. Just when you think you have yours figured out, it changes on you again. I'm always chasing my ego around.

Different egos in different situations? Who wrote about that? I smoked too much in college perhaps. One man's perspective is hardly another woman's reality when it comes to understanding our brains.

 

[chubbynugs]

Fuck my ego. The ego will always hold a brain from expanding. The ego is able to absorb cultural beliefs without discretion and that is certain doom for most. It is wrong to fall in a pattern of everyone doing the same thing unless it is for the true benefit of humanity. Freud could never be on the same level as me cause his ego has never been broken down from its core. Sorry but cocaine doesnt do that to you.

 

[devilgoob]

chubbynugs, well put.

I just have to throw this up then.

"Put five monkeys in a cage. Inside that cage, hang one banana on a string and place a ladder under it. Keep a garden hose nearby. Soon one of the monkeys will spot the banana and start to climb the ladder to get it. When he does, spray all of the other monkeys with cold water. Now, replace the banana.

After a while another one of the monkeys will probably go for the banana. Again, spray all of the other monkeys with cold water.

Monkeys are relatively smart, so pretty soon, whenever one of the monkeys attempts to climb the ladder, all the other monkeys will try to prevent him from doing it. When that happens, put away the cold water hose. Remove one monkey from the cage and replace it with a new one. Now hang a new banana over the ladder.

The new monkey will spot the banana and head for the ladder. To his surprise, all of the other monkeys will spontaneously attack him. After several more futile attempts, all of which will result in further beatings, the new monkey will no longer try for the banana.

Remove another of the original monkeys and again replace it with a new one. Now replace the banana. Again, the new monkey will make a grab for it. Like his predecessor he will be stunned to discover that all the other monkeys attack him. In fact, the previous newcomer will most likely take a particularly enthusiastic role in his replacement's punishment.

One at a time, gradually replace all of the original monkeys with new ones. Each of the newcomers will go for the banana. Each one will be attacked by the other four. Most of the new monkeys have absolutely no idea why they were not allowed to climb the ladder, or why they are participating in the assault on the newest monkey.

When all of the original monkeys have been replaced, none of the remaining monkeys have ever been sprayed with cold water. Nevertheless, not one of those monkeys ever approaches the ladder, why not? Because as far as they are concerned that's the way it has always been done around here.

And that is how corporate culture and company policy begins."

 

[FarOut1]

chubbynugs, well put.

I just have to throw this up then.

"Put five monkeys in a cage. Inside that cage, hang one banana on a string and place a ladder under it. Keep a garden hose nearby. Soon one of the monkeys will spot the banana and start to climb the ladder to get it. When he does, spray all of the other monkeys with cold water. Now, replace the banana.

After a while another one of the monkeys will probably go for the banana. Again, spray all of the other monkeys with cold water.

Monkeys are relatively smart, so pretty soon, whenever one of the monkeys attempts to climb the ladder, all the other monkeys will try to prevent him from doing it. When that happens, put away the cold water hose. Remove one monkey from the cage and replace it with a new one. Now hang a new banana over the ladder.

The new monkey will spot the banana and head for the ladder. To his surprise, all of the other monkeys will spontaneously attack him. After several more futile attempts, all of which will result in further beatings, the new monkey will no longer try for the banana.

Remove another of the original monkeys and again replace it with a new one. Now replace the banana. Again, the new monkey will make a grab for it. Like his predecessor he will be stunned to discover that all the other monkeys attack him. In fact, the previous newcomer will most likely take a particularly enthusiastic role in his replacement's punishment.

One at a time, gradually replace all of the original monkeys with new ones. Each of the newcomers will go for the banana. Each one will be attacked by the other four. Most of the new monkeys have absolutely no idea why they were not allowed to climb the ladder, or why they are participating in the assault on the newest monkey.

When all of the original monkeys have been replaced, none of the remaining monkeys have ever been sprayed with cold water. Nevertheless, not one of those monkeys ever approaches the ladder, why not? Because as far as they are concerned that's the way it has always been done around here.

And that is how corporate culture and company policy begins."

Human Condition LOL

 

[weatherboxes]

chubbynugs, well put.

I just have to throw this up then.

"Put five monkeys in a cage. Inside that cage, hang one banana on a string and place a ladder under it. Keep a garden hose nearby. Soon one of the monkeys will spot the banana and start to climb the ladder to get it. When he does, spray all of the other monkeys with cold water. Now, replace the banana.

After a while another one of the monkeys will probably go for the banana. Again, spray all of the other monkeys with cold water.

Monkeys are relatively smart, so pretty soon, whenever one of the monkeys attempts to climb the ladder, all the other monkeys will try to prevent him from doing it. When that happens, put away the cold water hose. Remove one monkey from the cage and replace it with a new one. Now hang a new banana over the ladder.

The new monkey will spot the banana and head for the ladder. To his surprise, all of the other monkeys will spontaneously attack him. After several more futile attempts, all of which will result in further beatings, the new monkey will no longer try for the banana.

Remove another of the original monkeys and again replace it with a new one. Now replace the banana. Again, the new monkey will make a grab for it. Like his predecessor he will be stunned to discover that all the other monkeys attack him. In fact, the previous newcomer will most likely take a particularly enthusiastic role in his replacement's punishment.

One at a time, gradually replace all of the original monkeys with new ones. Each of the newcomers will go for the banana. Each one will be attacked by the other four. Most of the new monkeys have absolutely no idea why they were not allowed to climb the ladder, or why they are participating in the assault on the newest monkey.

When all of the original monkeys have been replaced, none of the remaining monkeys have ever been sprayed with cold water. Nevertheless, not one of those monkeys ever approaches the ladder, why not? Because as far as they are concerned that's the way it has always been done around here.

And that is how corporate culture and company policy begins."

this has to do with group psychology as well. it is extremelyyy powerful. good stuff man.

i think it becomes more of a human condition when instead of beating the monkey down that attempts to climb to ladder, they beat each other down in an attempt to be on the ladder so they are not sprayed. :O haha.

 

[weatherboxes]

Fuck my ego. The ego will always hold a brain from expanding. The ego is able to absorb cultural beliefs without discretion and that is certain doom for most. It is wrong to fall in a pattern of everyone doing the same thing unless it is for the true benefit of humanity. Freud could never be on the same level as me cause his ego has never been broken down from its core. Sorry but cocaine doesnt do that to you.

this is true to an extent, but it's egotistical to say freud would never be on the same level as you . in my opinion the brain would have never expanded (for better or for worse) in the first place if it wasnt for the ego. the ego will forever be a part of us. we can possibly do away with it for a short amount of time during meditation or psychedellic drug use, however, it will return once we are done with those things. ego deflation is what we need and what we talked about earlier. the ability to recognize the faults and errors within our own ego's. that too is another form of mental evolution. it's what societies need in order to progress towards acceptance/tolerance and peace, but it still concerns and includes the ego. we can't just do away with our own ego's forever; it's impossible.

 

[weatherboxes]

stayin' alive!

 

[toryscum]

most human characteristics follow a normal (bell shaped) distribution.

But most measures for IQ are simply a measure of how well an individual takes that specific IQ test.

Also behavior is contextual and depends on the setting. The rocket scientist may be a genius in the lab but fail miserably, and act stupidly, when lost in the wilderness.

Is there a smart gene? Smart doing what? Yes, a person can have a greater genetic propensity for understanding math or music or whatever. If a kid has a math genius gene but their math skills are never developed then their math genius gene is not fully utilized.

That's what I mean by the dialectic. Its the interaction between the nature (the math genius gene) and the nurture (the environment) that produces the outcome.

Great post, I have had many tests done on myself for various reasons, one was a test called a morrisby, its physcometric, but I decided to test it, and safe to say you can condition yourself for it. And I fully agree with all you have said. one thing I have never conditioned myself for is my anger.. so any pointers for that would be greatly appreciated... personally I'm of the believe that most things are learnt in behavior patterns.