Stunted Plants Pics and Questionnaire

[terminalc]

How long has this problem been going on? 3wk
What STRAIN are you growing? La Confidential
What was the establishing technique? (seed or clone?) Clone
What is the age of your plants? ~3wk
How long have they been in the soil mixture they are in now? ~3wk
How Tall are the plants? 1'-2.5'
What PHASE (seedling, vegetative or flower) are the plants in? Veg
What Technique are you using? (SOG, SCROG etc) Trees drain to waste
What size pots are you using? (Include how many subjects to pot) 15g each
What substrate/medium are you using? What brand of soil mixture are you using?(percentage of perlite, vermiculite...etc?) Foxfarm Ocean Forest
What Nutrient's are you using? GH Lucas Formula
How much of each nutrient are you using with how much water? *Knowing the brand is very helpful* 250ml Micro 500ml Bloom 32 Gallons
How often are you feeding? Every other watering
If flowering, when did you switch over to using Bloom nutrients?
What order are you mixing your nutrients? (example: veg nutes 1st, bloom 2nd ect) Micro then Bloom
What is the TDS/EC/PPM of your nutrients used? 1000ppm ec X 500
What is the pH of the "RUN-OFF"? 6.0
What method of pH test was administered? Using Strips? pH pen? Drops and soil test kit
How often are you watering? Haven't watered in 7 days, was on drip with 1/4 spaghetti lines 3 min/day
When was your last feeding and how often are you feeding? 7 days ago
What size bulb are you using? 600w hps
What is the distance to the canopy? 24"
What is your RH Factor? (Relative Humidity) 45-55
What is the canopy temperature? 85-87
What is the Day/Night Temp? (Include fluctuation range) Day 79-84 Night ~64-77
What is the current Air Flow? (cfm etc.) 2 16" oscillating fans + A/C Blower
Tell us about your ventilation, intake exhaust and when its running and not running ? Ducted lights Fans on 24/7, Sealed Room with A/C Co2 Injected
Is the fan blowing directly at plants? No it blows above the plants, leaves do move though
Is the grow substrate constantly wet or moist? When it was on drip it was constantly wet and algae was growing on topsoil
Is your water HARD or SOFT? Waiting on water test but it seems hard 200+ ppm
What water are you using? Reverse Osmosis (RO)? Tap? Bottled? Well water? Distilled? Mineral Water? Spring water 8.3 ph
Are you using water from a water softener? No
Has plant been recently pruned, cloned or pinched? Took clones off the top of the bigger ones
Have any pest chemicals been used? If so what and when? Fungicide added to flat white paint from the depot...
Are plant's infected with pest's? A few thrips flying around
Co2 1500

Long story short changed location and water source. Didn't realize the ph was 8.3 until ~12 days ago. So these plants
were watered with higher ph water for a week or two and were being overwatered at the same time. The clones were put
straight into 15g pots (a mistake i know). I began adjusting ph to 6.0 as soon as I found out it was high. The soil
ph tests at 7 right now and NPK test excessive. Again haven't watered for 7 days trying to dry pots out, they are still not
too light. Plants are looking better then a week ago and seem to be growing instead of just being stunted(they should
be bigger for their age). I am not using GH Hardwater nutes. I have ordered an R/O system and a good pH pen.

The plants seem to be recovering at this point but the centers of new growth are white and leaves are small, anyone
have any suggestions to help them out? Will R/O Solve this?

 

[maryj315]

There are a few threads around here you will have to look using that recipe in ocean forest. I think if you are using heads formula i would only feed every third watering in that soil which has a enough food already in it for your plant to last at least 25 30 days.

Now speaking from past experience except i used 10g pots with ocean forest i did water but only a few times and did not not feed anything that was the whole point in using such a big pot.As it turned out the yield sucked because i did not let them root the pots long enough in veg.

Mj

 

[maryj315]

Add about 5 gallons tap to your ro water for micros and such ph between 6.3 and 6.8 after you add your nute

Mj

 

[Bulldog11]

SHouldn't you be using the veg formula right now? You only listed the micro and bloom.

 

[terminalc]

Thanks everyone. Yea I might have been fertilizing a bit much, used to dealing with bigger plants at this stage. I was worried that my over watering leeched most of the nutrients out of the soil but the NPK tests came back excessive... I will ph the water a bit higher and see how that goes, i think i am going to give them a drink today since its been awhile. I am not using R/O water yet but i have ordered a system. As for the veg formula, it was my understanding that the lucas formula could be used throughout any cycle. The plants in the veg room under a T5 that are younger look good but still don't look 100% and they were watered with all the same phed water.

 

[Weedman Herb]

I'm wondering how many more of these threads I'm going to see before peeps get the idea that Mixing soil and hydro techniques is a Very Touchy way to grow ...

 

[terminalc]

Well I've had excellent experience with these techniques in the past... Thanks for your suggestion on what might be the cause... Furthermore I tested the spring water today and it was 100ppm and ph 7.2?? Kindof weird considering the tests I took the other day. Is spring water known for changing around like that? The smaller plants look like they are developing a similar whitening on the inside of new growth although not as bad. Hoping the R/O will fix this as im about out of thoughts myself. Think i'll add a fan today and see how that goes, also turned the a/c vent on. I also phed the water to 6.4 and gave them a drink w/o nutes for the first time in 8 days... We'll see i guess

 

[terminalc]

Ok well i got my R/O system installed today. Plants aren't looking much different then a few days ago. R/O water comes out at 7.2. Today I phed the water to 6.0 then flushed about 20 gallons through the pots. Runoff was measuring 3-400 ppm and 6.4 ph. I then fed with 200ml micro 400ml bloom 250ml hygrozyme 250mg aquashield. Came out to about 900ppm

I raised the lights another 1' to be about 3' away from the canopy. I changed two of the four 600s to MH. I don't think this to be the main problem but i figured it was worth a shot. I have clones under a T5 that are doing the same yellowing...

Since i am on spring water I am thinking maybe excessive calcium? Or possibly underfeeding this whole time since the runoff only tested at 3-400 ppm? ec X 500.

Guess all i can do is wait and see if the feeding helps them out at all. I've read all the threads about lucas formula and FFOF I can find. At this point i am pretty stumped. Anyone have more insight for me?

 

[HeadyPete]

I'm wondering how many more of these threads I'm going to see before peeps get the idea that Mixing soil and hydro techniques is a Very Touchy way to grow ...

I agree.....Lucas was meant for hydro grow and you are feeding like there is no food already in that FFOF...you say yourself you were overfeeding so these techniques are not working out so good for you this time....

1000ppms for plants that size is excessive and you cannot accurate measure organic nutrients with a pen so it is in reality higher.

 

[Weedman Herb]

I call the usual ... Nutrient lockout due to excessive salts ... You made a relatively hot soil even hotter by treating it like Pro Mix ... the container is huge and the plants can't possibly eat what's there And what you're dumping in it ... and this is causing the balance in your medium to whack out ... If there was a balance to begin with ...

 

[10k]

Originally Posted by Weedman Herb View Post
I'm wondering how many more of these threads I'm going to see before peeps get the idea that Mixing soil and hydro techniques is a Very Touchy way to grow ...

I agree.....Lucas was meant for hydro grow and you are feeding like there is no food already in that FFOF...you say yourself you were overfeeding so these techniques are not working out so good for you this time.....
1000ppms for plants that size is excessive and you cannot accurate measure organic nutrients with a pen so it is in reality higher.

Yup, not to mention the fact that even though soil is high cec and has the ability to receive much higher pH levels than mineral chem salts hydroponics would normally run at. The point that gets totally forgotten about is that the chemical hydroponics mineral salts nute packages like GH flora multi-part become drastically damaged if they're pH'd too high during the mixing process.

for example...

Add about 5 gallons tap to your ro water for micros and such ph between 6.3 and 6.8 after you add your nute

That would be fine if you were speaking about a poop soup tea, fish emulsion, fox farms etc or other non hydro chem salts nutrient, but in this case it's gh flora micro and flora bloom being mixed !

Well, I hate to keep harping on about it, but when mixing chem hydro mineral salts nutes like gh flora series, anything above 6.5 IS causing some solution damage from elements precipitating and becoming unavailable in the solution. Now, don't make me break out the supporting quotes from general hydroponics, flairform etc., but, anything above 6.5pH while mixing up your chem nutes can cause P, K and several micros to precipitate out and become unavailable for uptake. Screw thinking about soil pH nutrient availability charts, what I'm talking about is IN the chemistry of the somewhat damaged nute solution before it's even poured into the medium. The precipitated crap can be so small that you aren't really seeing it as a white dust on the bottom of a mixing reservoir, it can also be invisible held in suspension in the solution and not be available in the nutrient, yet be building up in the medium like a harmful salt. Damaged chemical nutrient solutions don't have the element balance we think were feeding, but rather can be somewhat imbalanced and even toxic to some degree.

I call the usual ... Nutrient lockout due to excessive salts ... You made a relatively hot soil even hotter by treating it like Pro Mix ... the container is huge and the plants can't possibly eat what's there And what you're dumping in it ... and this is causing the balance in your medium to whack out ... If there was a balance to begin with ...

Agreed 100% and consider this too... the thread started said "spring water" (and 8.3ph too yikes!)
Now if that's a bottled "spring water" like Crystal springs brand "spring water drinking water", then it surely does have sodium in it.
The label states "minerals added for taste" or something to that effect. The 'added mineral' is usually sodium chloride...common table salt arrrrgh !

 

[maryj315]

Ok well i got my R/O system installed today. Plants aren't looking much different then a few days ago. R/O water comes out at 7.2. Today I phed the water to 6.0 then flushed about 20 gallons through the pots. Runoff was measuring 3-400 ppm and 6.4 ph. I then fed with 200ml micro 400ml bloom 250ml hygrozyme 250mg aquashield. Came out to about 900ppm

I raised the lights another 1' to be about 3' away from the canopy. I changed two of the four 600s to MH. I don't think this to be the main problem but i figured it was worth a shot. I have clones under a T5 that are doing the same yellowing...

Since i am on spring water I am thinking maybe excessive calcium? Or possibly underfeeding this whole time since the runoff only tested at 3-400 ppm? ec X 500.

Guess all i can do is wait and see if the feeding helps them out at all. I've read all the threads about lucas formula and FFOF I can find. At this point i am pretty stumped. Anyone have more insight for me?

Use the advance search titles only use the key GH lots of info and completed grows or pm HYDRO-SOIL he has done work in soil using the Lucas formula.Good post 10k

Mj

 

[terminalc]

Some updated pics, everything looks about the same to me.



It seems unanimous on the nute lockout. What is the best thing to do now then? Should i try to shake the rootballs off and repot them in new soil? Should i flush more with r/o water after they dry out?

About the nutrients precipitating this definitely could have happened considering the higher ph of the water I was starting with. It was my understanding that i should add nutes then ph the water, should i ph then add nutes instead?

The water i am using is real spring water coming out of the ground not bottled storebought.

Can I cancel out this as a ph issue then? 6.0 in 6.4 runoff and 7.0 soil test

I will continue to read as much as i can, never had an issue like this before. Thank you everyone for taking the time!

 

[HeadyPete]

The solution is simple - lower the ph (slowly over days and multiple waterings) and dial down the amount of ferts you are feeding.

When they are !!!SuperGreen!!!, you are feeding too much.

maryj315 also gives excellent advice.

 

[terminalc]

Got water tests in today

Calcium 37 mg/l
magnesium 6.1 mg/l
sodium 12 mg/l
iron 0
manganese 0
total hardness 118 mg/l
ph 7.27 although i've personally seen it above 8
ec 260 umhos/cm
total dissolved solids 130 mg/l

Are these acceptable levels? I haven't fed since the 10th. They were clear watered 3 times since then. I think I might give them a little juice today and see how they respond. They are growing much better now but still have significant inner chlorosis on new growth

 

[Calimed]

You really don't need to add much to ocean forest. I started adding ff grow big to my plants 2-3 weeks in flower and it burned them. Just transplant and feed half or even less the dose you need if and only if the plants ask for it.

If you want to feed every day, go coco

 

[terminalc]

Thanks, i didn't end up feeding them today because they were looking worse, getting really fed up with this. Haven't given them anything but r/o water. Gave them a little more today.