Feminized F1`s

[englishrick]

i have discribed my reasons forworking with REVERCING FEMALES in my Reverced Backcross thread,,,,,,,,"RB" is a good idea ,,,,,,,here is another 1

this is not my idea!........it has been done and documented beffore... but the posibilitys sound good,,,so lets do some work and open the discution


im also going to use this procedure to make Cheese F1 Fems........then later i might try it on the est of my mothers





FEMINIZED F1`S


eg:,,,,,Cheese F1 Fem`s

Cheese(S2) x Cheese (S2) = Cheese F1 Fem`s,,,,,,,,,,,,,"imo"





lets chat

 

[amoril]

f1 implies a hybridization, imo.

what exactly is being hybridized by inbreeding a single plants genetics?

 

[englishrick]

im sujesting that once an incrossed line is seperated, an 2 or more lines are taken in differnt directions,,,it is then posible to cross 2 lines and make an "F1"

Shanti discribes SharkShock as an F1,,,,,,if you check the way GWS was made, its an incrossed line then seperated into 2 lines and crossed at the end to produce an F1

am i wrong bro?

 

[amoril]

well, yes, technically thats correct

when I hear that a line was inbred and stabilized, I interpret that to be multiple inbreeds. Like, in the nature of f5-f10, maybe even further if space and time allow.

for the example you gave, Shark Shark / GWS, I also know that Shanti worked for years with the widow line, and progressively came out with variations on it. To me, that implies the successive generations.

for my money, f2s are just f2s. not a point of stabilization. in fact, f2s will have more variation than the f1s.

Say I cross WW and Skunk. I pick two of the f1s, and breed. The f1s will be moderately uniform, in that they contain genetic code from moderately stable parents.

the f2s however, you will start seeing the recombination effect. this means that the traits become more muddled, mixed together. You dont know at this point which alleles are dominant, and as such youre selecting the f1s based on a 'blind' genome. You dont know what it is...

so, the f2s may end up being largely recessive expressions. youll find stuff in the f2s that wasnt in the f1 generation, for sure.

to end up with no surprises, youll have to take it quite a few generations further. youll lose that hybrid vigor, the oooomph in the potency, maybe resistance to various stressors.

THIS is when you consider the line stabilized, and ready to outcross for a true f1 generation.


edit what you are doing sound more like a 'limited' polyhybrid. Many times, breeders DONT stabilize a line before outcrossing it, because they want some of the genetic diversity. SSH is a true polyhybrid... nl5haze x skunk1haze. In this regard, the polyhybrid works....but, that doesnt mean this was the first combination of nl5haze and skunk1haze that was tried before SSH was released....multiple parents were probably experimented with, to see which combined in the most desirable way.

 

[BENJI]

Nice post amoril...

 

[englishrick]

well, yes, technically thats correct

when I hear that a line was inbred and stabilized, I interpret that to be multiple inbreeds. Like, in the nature of f5-f10, maybe even further if space and time allow.

for the example you gave, Shark Shark / GWS, I also know that Shanti worked for years with the widow line, and progressively came out with variations on it. To me, that implies the successive generations.

for my money, f2s are just f2s. not a point of stabilization. in fact, f2s will have more variation than the f1s.

Say I cross WW and Skunk. I pick two of the f1s, and breed. The f1s will be moderately uniform, in that they contain genetic code from moderately stable parents.

the f2s however, you will start seeing the recombination effect. this means that the traits become more muddled, mixed together. You dont know at this point which alleles are dominant, and as such youre selecting the f1s based on a 'blind' genome. You dont know what it is...

so, the f2s may end up being largely recessive expressions. youll find stuff in the f2s that wasnt in the f1 generation, for sure.

to end up with no surprises, youll have to take it quite a few generations further. youll lose that hybrid vigor, the oooomph in the potency, maybe resistance to various stressors.

THIS is when you consider the line stabilized, and ready to outcross for a true f1 generation.


edit what you are doing sound more like a 'limited' polyhybrid. Many times, breeders DONT stabilize a line before outcrossing it, because they want some of the genetic diversity. SSH is a true polyhybrid... nl5haze x skunk1haze. In this regard, the polyhybrid works....but, that doesnt mean this was the first combination of nl5haze and skunk1haze that was tried before SSH was released....multiple parents were probably experimented with, to see which combined in the most desirable way.

brilliant post.....


the bit ive put into bold is the bit i want to adress most,,,,,

im thinking : ...YES ,,"S" series seeds will lead to loss of vigor an the weed will look crap.....at this point i "might" consider the line "stable",,,,,,,,and crossing 2 "stable" "S"lines from the same mother ,,will result in F1 seeds

am i wrong amoril,,,il listen to your advise

 

[dopeshow]

This doesn't sound right at all.

People throw around "F1" without realizing what it means in the real world (outside of a pollen chuckers closet).

A TRUE F1 hybrid is a P1 female x P1 male cross where the P1 parents are unrelated (and preferably true breeding or landrace).

Crossing the same variety into itself does not create an F1 hybrid.

Cheese x Cheese =/= F1 hybrid at all ... it equals Skunk IBL (because thats what it is)

Purple Thai x Afghan = F1 hybrid !!

What you are talking about doing is an already established method of ensuring the genetics do not bottleneck and to inject vigor back into the seed line, you can also use multiple lines to breed for multiple traits. For instance you concentrate one line heavily on fixing a tight bud structure with good bud/leaf ratio... while you concentrate the second line heavily on immense resin production. At some point in the filial crossing you can combine the lines, selecting and progeny testing, to create the NEXT filial generation with these improved combined traits of tight bud, good bud/leaf ratio, and good resin production. It doesn't start the Filial crossing over (at F1).. it simply keeps going.

It would be like this...

P1 x P1 = F1 "Rick"
F1 x F1 = F2 "Rick"
F2(a) x F2 = F3 (ay) "Rick"
F2(b) x F2(z) = F3 (bz) "Rick"
F3 (ay) x F3 (ay) = F4 (ay) "Rick"
F3 (bz) x F3 (bz) = F4 (bz) "Rick"
F4 (ay) x F4 (bz) = F5 "Rick"

It will always be the "Rick" cross and anytime you cross two of the same variety you are extending the FILIAL generations.

That's just a super basic example. I am saying at the F2 generation, when selecting to make F3s, you could find two different exceptional female phenotypes and cross them to two different exceptional males... creating your two separate seed lines (of the same family). Then you could select F3s from both lines and breed them to F4s (not mixing the separate families yet). And then to make the F5 generation you could bring them back together to add vigor, avoid bottleknecking, or fix traits.

It's so hard to give examples without any data, like phenotype expression and variation, an understanding of the dominant or recessive traits, or knowing the goals. You could go about this a few different ways, it doesn't have to be exactly like my piss poor example. You could backcross the F4 (bz) to an F3 (ay) or maybe even cross an F4 (bz) female to the F2 male to make F5s.

But really what I am trying telling you is that what you are doing is NOT creating an F1 hybrid. If you do what you're saying, all you are doing is making "Cheese" (skunk) feminized seeds... 'tis all.

The ONLY way I can see crossing two unrelated lines of the same family together working like you'd hope (to create F1s) is if you work two separate lines all the way to two DISTINCT, TRUE inbred lines. Like crossing Deep Chunk x Pine Tar Kush. Both are essentially the same family, Afghani Indica. They are both inbdred lines and unique from one another. And crossing those two together would give you a true F1 Afghani hybrid. BUTT here is what you need to know.. if you cross an F2 Deep Chunk from family (a) to an F2 Deep Chunk from family (b) you are NOT making F1 Deep Chunks!! You're making F3 deep chunks... even if the two F2 Deep Chunks do not share the same parents from the F1 generation, it is still the F3 generation.

I read your other thread about reversed backcrossing before I replied here and dude, I agree with Chimera (and who wouldn't with his breeding knowledge)... what you're describing is a bad idea. It's NOT going to work out like you are dreaming it up in your head.

If I were you, and you're that crazy about working with Cheese... I would find a good Afghan Skunk seed line, grow a LARGE number, select MULTIPLE top notch "funky dead skunk" females and keep back up clones, reverse the Afghani Skunk females and use their reversed pollen to bang your Cheese clone. Test the results and only utilize the best Afghani Skunk female clone. THAT will give you an honest to god F1 feminized line. But you're NOT going to get that by crossing Cheese with Cheese...

I hope this helps/make sense dude... I'm high as hell and there's no way I'm proofreading that

 

[amoril]

well, maybe.

Id still vote no, but youd have more of a case then at least. The potential problem is that you dont provide enough variation to be a true hybrid.

that comes down to selection. If you do a good job of selecting for opposing traits, as in a short vs long flower time and such, then maybe youll get some of it back from the 'hybridization,' I really dont know.

But, I would think if this is the route youre going to take, you certainly cant do it at the s2 generation and expect anything consistent. For sure, youll find some killer plants, but theyll be across the board still.

crossing two differently selected s10 generation plants may be more promising.....but seriously man, thats thousands of plants worth of selection.

lets be modest, and say you do 100 per selection per generation. That means, you grow 200 s1 plants. Select 2 mothers that are as distinct and unique as possible. Take these to the s2 generation.

Now, grow out 100 of each of your s2 generation. Select the plant that most closely resembles the s1 parent, and make s3 generation with this plant. Do that with each of your 'lines' and for each generation.

thats what, 2000 plants? And thats probably shaving some work off the selection. the more you can choose from, the better. if you could do 1000 per selection, youd be in much better shape.

 

[englishrick]

well, maybe.

Id still vote no, but youd have more of a case then at least. The potential problem is that you dont provide enough variation to be a true hybrid.

that comes down to selection. If you do a good job of selecting for opposing traits, as in a short vs long flower time and such, then maybe youll get some of it back from the 'hybridization,' I really dont know.

But, I would think if this is the route youre going to take, you certainly cant do it at the s2 generation and expect anything consistent. For sure, youll find some killer plants, but theyll be across the board still.

crossing two differently selected s10 generation plants may be more promising.....but seriously man, thats thousands of plants worth of selection.

lets be modest, and say you do 100 per selection per generation. That means, you grow 200 s1 plants. Select 2 mothers that are as distinct and unique as possible. Take these to the s2 generation.

Now, grow out 100 of each of your s2 generation. Select the plant that most closely resembles the s1 parent, and make s3 generation with this plant. Do that with each of your 'lines' and for each generation.

thats what, 2000 plants? And thats probably shaving some work off the selection. the more you can choose from, the better. if you could do 1000 per selection, youd be in much better shape.

i think i understand!.......


the bit ive put in bold is my fave bit of your post,,,,,,,,,im assuming il find different parts of the Cheese clone in its "S" series,,,

eg ,,,,,,in S1 Cheese:: ,,,,i might find a plant with the Cheese`s smell,but looks like an Afghan......,,,,,,,,,then maybe il find another plant with Cheese`s veg profile but without the cheese smell,,,,,,,,,,combining the two sounds good to me








ps.....S9 sounds a lil far,,,1 of the reasons why i sujested the Reverced Backcross method was to limit phenos without making the seeline too heterogeneous

 

[amoril]

you may not end up having to take it to the s9 generation.

in fact, there's no real reason you cant do it at any generation you want. its just that as you go further, your results get more predictable, and even more can be accomplished by outcrossing.

it just seems that if youre not careful, you could fall into the window of no opportunity, metaphorically speaking.

with each of the subsequent self-pollinations, youre going to limit the available genome, bottlenecking the genetics. This is how you stabilize, if done carefully.

But, suppose you take it to the s3 generation, and you have two moderately different expressions, and decide to cross them. Youre only really un-doing the generation.

-----------

like a ton of bricks, the main problem just hit me.

lets assume you use the s2 generation, since I think this is what you have referred to in the other thread. All youll get is a limited expression of the s1 gene pool...quite the opposite of an f1.

if you do it at the s3 level, youll get a more limited picture of the s1 gene pool.

the problem from these "shallow" crosses is that youre not diversifying enough from the original p1 genome. thus, youre only going to achieve a fraction of the p1 genome in return.

a more interesting idea, imo, would be to take your s1s, and start crossing them together.

say, pick your 5 favorite s1s. clone each, and turn one copy of each to intersex.

lets call them s1Am, s1Af, s1Bm, s1Bf, s1Cm, s1Cf, etc...where A, B, C are each of the plants, and m or f for male or female expression.

s1Af x s1Bm. Take your favorite plants from this crop, and cross with s1C m/f. take the best of these, and cross with the plants you havent used yet, one at a time.

THIS should provide you with a stabilized version of the original genome, or as close as youll get imo.

Now, dealing with the herm/intersex tendencies youve introduced on a massive scale may be a problem for generations to come, but youre going to have to deal with that either way.

 

[englishrick]

i think i understand...

i agree,,,,,,crossing S2`s will only bring a fraction of the P1 genome.....TRUE!,,,,but i only want 1 or 2 traits from the P1 anyways....

crossing S1`s rather than S2`s would give more chance of capturing the bulk of the P1`s genome,,,,,,,,,,,,,, BUT, eventualy il want to OUTCROSS , maybe to another S1 from the same line or whatever....i was only sujesting using S2 mothers, because S2 are more homogeneous an as a mother in an later F1 cross, using an extreemly homogeneous mother is brilliant stuff,,imo

 

[englishrick]

when it comes to hermi plants,,,,im convinced the problem can be rectified, with extra work to the seedline,,,,"like a repair job"