Nute Additives: What's worth it, what's not?

[Hella Fella]

Wow, I just found a new product yesterday @ ACE hardwarer!

www.gardensafe.com dosent have it but its:

"Liquid Tomato & Vegetable plant food"
1-1-4 "Contains Natural Ingredients For Succulent Tomatos, Grow Delecious Tomatoes, Vegetables, & HERBS"

by SCHULTZ


It says on back: Derived from Sugar Beets

Its black as night, and smells like molasses, it leaves a THICK black residue in my measuring cup that took about 10 swooshes through the res to dissolve, and the first day I got like 2 inches of foam on top my res, lotta carbs!

 

[Hydro-Soil]

um ya? have you ever had a bubbler in a rez?

the ph sky rockets constantly theres lots of info on it

What are you talking about? I've always used a bubbler in a res. SWC/DWC, E&F, Drip, you name it. I've never experienced pH issues unless I had other problems like too much heat or (with swc/dwc) not ENOUGH air bubbling through.

Then again, a lot of people use stuff other than GH Floranova. Never experienced it with the 3-part and Lucas Formula either.

Now, I've had my pH drop like a stone when I had root rot or algae issues but never skyrocket.

 

[Dr. G]

What are you talking about? I've always used a bubbler in a res. SWC/DWC, E&F, Drip, you name it. I've never experienced pH issues unless I had other problems like too much heat or (with swc/dwc) not ENOUGH air bubbling through.

Then again, a lot of people use stuff other than GH Floranova. Never experienced it with the 3-part and Lucas Formula either.

Now, I've had my pH drop like a stone when I had root rot or algae issues but never skyrocket.

google it theres TONS of info

or read this http://www.gardenscure.com/420/hydroponics-aeroponics-soil-less-methods/70595-unstable-ph-read.html

 

[JackKerouac]

If you are feeding at the correct level, the ec and pH will stay the same as the plant sucks up water and nutrients. With Canna nutrients, it's fairly easy to lock this in needing a change or top off every couple weeks. Remember, if she's hungry, the pH goes down. If she's thirsty, the pH goes up.

 

[Hydro-Soil]

google it theres TONS of info

or read this http://www.gardenscure.com/420/hydroponics-aeroponics-soil-less-methods/70595-unstable-ph-read.html

This is all related to people that are using tap water. The solution is generally simple (unless you have shit water like I do) and that's to mix your nutes thoroughly and pH, bubble for 24hrs and pH again. Your issue should be solved.

If you're still having problems either quit using additives, switch to a more stable nute formula or switch to F'n RO water. Duh.

Yes, google pulls up thousands of people bitching about pH when they don't understand it. Nothing new. No, there's no mystery about it and it's not something that 'automatically happens' just because you have an airstone in your res.

 

[stoney419]

I have found the product Pure Flowers to work better than any others I have used. Their literature describes it as a phosphite product, as opposed to a phosphate. Not sure I understand "how" it works, just that it does. I've recommended it to others in the IC community and they seem to be impressed with the results also. In addition, I use Dutch Masters Gold line with Silica, Zone and Max Flower. Zone seems to work similar to Hygrozyme and Max Flower has Humic/Fulvics as well as other trace elements. Their Liquid Light product works like a champ!
I know I sound like a DM sales rep, but after using GH for years and a massive wallet lightening disaster with AN, I think I've finally found a combination that works well.
Fred

this is a fact o tried it on fred advice and have never been so happy

 

[Dr. G]

This is all related to people that are using tap water. The solution is generally simple (unless you have shit water like I do) and that's to mix your nutes thoroughly and pH, bubble for 24hrs and pH again. Your issue should be solved.

If you're still having problems either quit using additives, switch to a more stable nute formula or switch to F'n RO water. Duh.

Yes, google pulls up thousands of people bitching about pH when they don't understand it. Nothing new. No, there's no mystery about it and it's not something that 'automatically happens' just because you have an airstone in your res.

i use ro water..... i had an air stone in my rez it wouldnt stop raiseing ph i took it out it fixed the prob

and when you google it its all over fish forums (where they only use ro btw) i know from personal experience cant use tap water in a salt water fish tank

but the general concencious is dont use a air stone it changes ph i dont get why you cant just use a water fall itll help the ph stay stable and give you o2

and tap water is almost the same as ro water with nutrients in it just the wrong nutrients and other stuff we dont want

so i dont get your statement about its cuz there useing tap..........

 

[Hydro-Soil]

so i dont get your statement about its cuz there useing tap..........

Saltwater tanks are a completely different chemical soup and no, you really can't compare it to a hydro nute tank in that respect.


Read very carefully...... "The forums are full of DWC/SWC people who use lots and lots of airstones without constantly having to lower their pH." (I was one of them.)

I've used an airstone in my res, ever since going to Drip/E&F and don't have pH drift. (I'm running both)

I DO find threads all over the internet about people with tap water and rising pH issues. I have no idea what your specific situation was, but it most likely wasn't just the airstone.


What I'm saying is that just putting an airstone in your res isn't going to make your pH automatically creep up. Period.

 

[JackKerouac]

It's possible that his air stone is causing evaporation making the pH go up. We are way off track as far as the thread goes.

Canna Rhizotonic is what I use for cuttings and seedlings in rockwool. I can't remember the last time I didn't have good germination or rooting rates because of that stuff. It is a little spendy and smells like fish emulsion, but I can't imagine not using it compared to the results I used to get.

 

[RockyMountainHi]

I experienced my best harvests thus far using Fox Farms products.

I've also cooked a garden or two using Fox Farms products.

Gennerally speaking, Ocean forest, Light Warrior, Grow Big, Big Bloom and Tiger Bloom are very good investments.



the BEST investment,,,,, learning to use the search feature here on IC - AND USING IT.

And as to the pH -

Ph wil fluxuate - A LOT over the period of 3 or 4 days - but then it will stabilize.

Here, my tap starts out about 7.3 - 7.5 pH and about 150 PPM

I add 1 smidge over 1/2 teas. of pH down to 5 gallons of water the ph goes to 6.2,ish - next day it's back to 7.0ish.

Now I add 1/4 tsp pH down and the ph drops to 6.0 - 6.2 - nest day its at 6.3 - 6.5 and no longer has the up and down swing.

It's easy to get it to my target of 6.2 - 6.5 and tends to stay there. With dual airstones blowing 24/7


Vinegar and citric acids can be even more prome to wild swings - and take several days longer to stabilixe.

at least if my meters are reading right.

 

[HellaFella420]

I'm running the lucas formula in DWC (I'm thinking about doing THIS instead,) and I'm curious about getting some additives for bigger yield... these are the things I've heard of but I'm sure there's more: Liquid karma, cha-ching, kool bloom, and diamond nectar.

I've heard people praise additives and some say you don't need them at all, so which ones are worthwhile (in terms of how much $ for how much bigger yield) ?

Responding to THIS post, when I'm done I'll go back and read the whole thread :/


Cal/Mag NECCESSARY ALWAYS USE THIS

Liquid Karma is teh SHIT, but theres other products out there that ARE better, its a glorified SeaWeed Extract with some other goodies [will come back to this later]

Cha-ching [green], Open Sesame [yellow], and Beastie Bloom [purple] are all the same essential product from Fox Farms, slightly different ratios for the different "stages" of flowering, waaaaaay unecessary, they just want you to buy THREE bottles of damn near the same stuff, [GOOD MARKETING FOXFARM!]
They adjust the NPK in different ratios depending on what the plant is realling gobbling down, personally, i USE Beastie Blooms [its the highest NPK, damn near MOAB without the food coloring tho]
Personally I adjust my 3part [by experience] during the different stages, and only buy the single bottle of BEASTIE

Kool Bloom is the exact same product as the ones above, its jsut made by GH not FOXFARM [FOXFARM is from HUMBOLDT BTW, GH sebastapol, YOU DECIDE, lol]

Now Diamond Nectar [also form GH] is I believe [i never use it but DAMN do i read lables] a Fulvic/Humic Acid product. its good stuff, but its ALSO ALREADY in lotsa other products, so to buy it as a standalone is way unecessary.
Now, i may be slightly misinformed, but Fulvic/Humic's are more important/intended for soil growth they are the building block of nutrition in Soil, "Forest Humus" = Humic acid


Personally, I LOVE "EARTH CREW ORGANICS" SuperHUME/Seaweed
its "essentially" Liquid KarmaXDiamondNectar but x10, it will almost stain your skin its so concentrated!


Now you have to understand allll the nutrient companies make and market the SAME products, just with different concentrations/mixture combinations/lables, and the idea [in their minds] is that you will buy NEARLY the whole product line, now Ive SEEN BOMBY ASS WEED grown only with a 3part, no additives, so even in MY mind the age old question of "what do i REALLY need, is NEVER put to bed, but the ability to provide EVERYTHING a plant needs still intrigues me....

So if you mix n match product lines NO PROBLEM, just know what your doing, you could be inadverntaly giving the plant more then its asking for in the additives [because of product overlap] {not a bad thing, mind you} just wasted $$ down the res change is all

AN products aren't worth it but you use: Pirhana, humic, fulvic, b-52, carboload and bigbud??? Well you certainly have me confused.

U KNOW? I was like, WTF?

As for additives, I've had the most success with: AN voodoo juice, liquid karma, superthrive, AN carboload, AN big bud, AN sensizym, AN B-52, purple maxx and gravity

Purple MAXX is POOP, they guy that MAKES it [Eel River Hydroponics] said its nonsense, marketing HYPE Gravity is interesting tho.....Kinda like Bushmaster

Id kidna rather not know that the erb i smoked had that in it.... I forget the product now, but years past DutchMaster had something that was essentially the same as Bushmaster, growers LOVED it, the EPA didnt, they banned its import [not good for humans even SECONDARY consumption]

EWWWWWWW

As for the Carboload, USE MOLASSES, as it is carboload/sweet/etc. is a BYPRODUCT of the sugar refining industry, C&H sugar [for instance] has to pay companies to get rid of it FOR them, THEN they sell it to ppl with a fancy lable and call it $50/gal for what was essentially TRASH

Molasses also has SULPHUR and maaaany other micros that can often be overlooked in a HYDRO system

let me clarify i use the oxy in the cloner and first half of grow then i change rez out for the M fungi(#7)

i use the nitrozyme for a foilar once a week and the hygrozyme in the rez...

the sweet and the molasses are alittle diff so i use both.... hope that clears up alittle better....

I like a little 30% H2O2 in my cloner bout 1/2 way through too

I never realized it for liek 3 years, sooo many wasted products, would buy HumTea and all kinds of other living, perishable innoculants, only to be POURING THEM INTO CHLORINATED WATER, I was SO pissed @ my simple ignorance the day it hit me.....

What kinda hydro system is this?
If your using coco or similar soilless medium then this is ok in any other regard OR in addition to this, make a "pond float" they sell them to combat alage growth in fountains and ponds [I think they are typically barley straw? which is antialgal in its own right I believe]

The concept is that fungi's AND bacteria for that matter, need some sort of substrate/medium to grow in/attach to,,,,, sooooooo get some cheap panyhose, and fill it with STRAIGHT coco, or your same medium [shouldnt really matter] mebbe even sprinkle in whatever brand innoculant you use, and toss the bitch in your res! Now even with res changes, you still have a "reservoir" in the bacterial/fungal sense their to help recolonize the frest nutes, kinda the same concpet as a "sourdough starter"

JUST DONT USE CHLORINATED TAPWATER TO REFILL YOUR RES , You have to fill up a few trashcans [NEW, clean!] with water and either dechlor them or bubble with airstones for ~6hrs to oxidize away the chlorine

So that pond float is essentially a petri dish that will then spread to all your nute's in short time.

NOW that said you need to have a HEALTHY root zone in place or you will be making a petri dish of ICK, this isnt really that hard [this isnt the time or place for THAT though]

Also you have to provide FOOD for these benefical bacteria and fungi, in a proper soil environment, they have what they need, but in a hydro system they need carbohydrates to live and multiply, which brings me back to MOLASSES, feed that float bag baby!

Also, if you already fool around with a biological resevior a float bag will prevent that "pondscum" [dead bodies of probotics] from forming around the edge of the res, because when they die, their already IN the bag, not floating free....

PK 13/14
Molasses
Amino based flower booster

That's all you need for boosting flowering

Example what YOU mean by: Amino based flower booster

I totally want to market my nom de plume as a nute additive. You'll have to use at least 10ml a gallon, once a week (sometimes twice a week if your really pimping hard) and it will be at least 100$ a bottle. Lots of naked chicks on the bottle. Your plants will love the PJ.

LMAO!! Has AN called yet to license it yet?

wow, 15-25% sounds amazing, Ill have to give that a go. And yes, liquid karma and botanicare sweet smell exactly like mollases, just a million times more expensive!.

Is this memory talking or have you sniffed side-by-side?

All botanicare products smell REMARKABLY similar, they alllll use the same BASE carrier formula it is a SWEET natural/earthy smell, but its NOT molassess, there very well may be sucrose or some carbohydrate in there somewhere, but not in an advertised amout "SWEET" is that, if the "molassess" was in there as you say, they would promote that fact AND subsequently make you pay for it...

All this talk of Shooting Powder got me interested, but on this site, http://www.hhydro.com/cgi-bin/hhydro/HH00887.html it says "Contrary to what you might have heard with other nutrients, never use an oxygen pump in the nutrient container or in the growth table. This may have serious consequences for the stability of the nutrients." wth?

Yeah, THAT Was very suprised, counterintuative anyone?

As it was explained to me by a supposed "veteran" that worked @ the hydro store [if he was a "true veteran" then why was he still WORKING @ the hydro store, hmmmmmm, always with a grain of salt ppl.....]
House&Garden's specific nute regimine is detrimentaly affected by oxidation [ie. its designed to not be aerated]

THANKS I'LL PASS!

Shooting Powder is just an extremely over priced PK booster.

Just another bit of North-Coast's mindcontol that H&G is THE SHIT, nothing else matters!

MOAB all u need to know to grow!


MobbDeep, you dont......., market SUPER PLANT TONIC via ebay by any chance do you?


In general,
Canna I've never heard anyone dissappointed with,
Botanicare can DO NO WRONG in my book,
GH is consistent for like 30 years now [lol] "lucas" formula? OCD overkill much?,
House & Garden VdZ I only know because a certin Humboldt Co. based distributor plugs the fuck outta it and shoves them down everyones throat, with exception to the "Roots Excelerator" that comes in the weird aluminum bottle
AN is like the Marc Emery of nutes; way too much press for nonsense/and too fuckign exxxpensive cause they have titties in their [waay overpriced and flashy] advertising,
Cutting Edge Solutions is a Humboldt based GH clone [with interesting biological additives, check them out],
Anything else {with excuses to my memory for ovbious omissions} is a knock-off of something already made, or an upstart...




I make no claims to be the informative end-all source, from my experience and knowlege these are the responses I would give to the statments and mebbe questions, made previously by others..... !!!!!!!!


Im stoned, lost, n' rambling...I'll stop now

Sorry bout the WOT...

 

[HellaFella420]

Wow, I just found a new product yesterday @ ACE hardwarer!

www.gardensafe.com dosent have it but its:

"Liquid Tomato & Vegetable plant food"
1-1-4 "Contains Natural Ingredients For Succulent Tomatos, Grow Delecious Tomatoes, Vegetables, & HERBS"

by SCHULTZ


It says on back: Derived from Sugar Beets

Its black as night, and smells like molasses, it leaves a THICK black residue in my measuring cup that took about 10 swooshes through the res to dissolve, and the first day I got like 2 inches of foam on top my res, lotta carbs!

 

[RockyMountainHi]

It says on back: Derived from Sugar Beets

Its black as night, and smells like molasses, it leaves a THICK black residue in my measuring cup

JUST LIKE MOLASSES.


If it looks like a rose and smells like a rose,,,, dare we call it a rose?

I say yes.

Gardening hype has been big bisness for a long, LONG time. Just cause they say ya need some, dosen't mean ya gotta use theirs; - if ya know what I mean.
Molassas is good stuff - and cheap.

Lotsa nute manafactureres use simple - yes "old school" and cheaply available products (Don't believe me? check on the price of a rail car full of #1 grade molassas.) to make highly profitable things to pay for the new Corvette in the garage.

It's amazing what a few worms , some newspaper and lawn clippings can make.
It's even more amazing what they charge for trash. - well it was trash, now it's gold.

Speakin of gold - I'm evaluating Hygrozyme - at $30 a bottle, I'm reluctant to endorse it,,, Yet. But the garden is looking happy.

 

[HellaFella420]

For some reason I rember my mommy telling me molasses is made from the sugar cane refining industry, a byproduct of sorts?

this shit is however, NOT molasses

It may be an analogue to molasses from the sugar beet process possibly, but i would NEVER want it on me oatmeal!

when i said it smells liek molasses, mebbe kinda a streatch, it smells like molasses that makes u wanna vomit


You notice im not crying abotu how awesom a $40 bottle of sweet is... that is garbage they would PAY to be dosposed of otherwise, with a white bottle and fancy lable

 

[little-soldier]

I did a side by side comparison with gravity and purple max and here is my 2 cents
gravity made my buds more compact but surprisingly didnt make it heavier
purple max is total CRAP, no purple and no increase in resin
all in all dont use those PGR crap products even bushmaster is crap though it does reduce the stretch it doesnt STOP it
I also tested bio boost and didnt noticed a difference in terms of yield but it did make my grass taste a lot better. I bought the boost accelerator and noticed it smells like molasse, Im thinking of doing a side by side comparison to see if they both do the same.