i dont understand

[Trillyen]

Ok first off i know i messed up by mixing my soil at a %50 worm compost organic, and a %50 jiffy organic mix.

My ph before watering is around 6.2 to 6.0, and after watering my ph is around 5.0 for right now, yes i know this is bad but im taking the steps now to raise my organic soil ph, even tho i herd a organic soil ph makes not a difference seeing that its organic.

My question is on my new leaflets coming up on my 12 day old plants. They are almost a dirt color, like black, or like some one sprinkled dirt just on the new emerging leaflets.

What does this mean?

Never had this problem before, and im wondering why im having it now?

what causes it?

Ive never even herd of this problem

Im wondering if it is because of my soil choice or what

The first set of 3 leaflets had this black looking stuff on them, and as it grew it seems to go away, i just dont think its normal

my strains are white widow, and AK-48, and a unknown strain, but they ALL do this, so its not them its me.

Even my bubble bucket plants did ths for a while but have now showed no more signs of the black dirty looking new growth.

Sorry i cant get any good pics

What do you guys think it could be???

 

[habeeb]

ok dude, to take frustration out of growing making your own mix, get a bag of premixed soil first to get a hang of the learning curve. fox farm ocean forest mixed with 20-50% perlite, or grab a bag of canna soil.

next with the bagged soil take your time learning nutes, start feeding at 1/4 tsp then work your way up reading the leaf.

so while this is going on you can start to mess with mixing soils. there is a sticky that people say the formula works for them, check that out first then you can start to modify to your liking.

good luck, and don't give up, it happens to the best of us

 

[master shake]

Dude you need perlite and especially dolomite lime mixed in, and like you acknowledged, too much ewc. Your soil is too acidic, the lime will buffer it. Depending on how bad the plants are damaged you may loose em, but definitely plant into a new mix (check the thread at the top).

 

[Trillyen]

ok dude, to take frustration out of growing making your own mix, get a bag of premixed soil first to get a hang of the learning curve. fox farm ocean forest mixed with 20-50% perlite, or grab a bag of canna soil.

next with the bagged soil take your time learning nutes, start feeding at 1/4 tsp then work your way up reading the leaf.

so while this is going on you can start to mess with mixing soils. there is a sticky that people say the formula works for them, check that out first then you can start to modify to your liking.

good luck, and don't give up, it happens to the best of us

oh dont worry failure is not a option here i got 2 much money tied into this thing now. Thanks for the help, Hmmm read the leaf that sounds like a GOOD IDEA, never really thought of it like that but its so simple it just may work

yea i have been reading what works best for other peolpe, and i have made a compost tea that i think im gonna like to go along with my organic grow

Dude you need perlite and especially dolomite lime mixed in, and like you acknowledged, too much ewc. Your soil is too acidic, the lime will buffer it. Depending on how bad the plants are damaged you may loose em, but definitely plant into a new mix (check the thread at the top).

i dont think they are that damaged because they are growing nicely for now

but i am wondering how can i now transplant them in different pots, or just add new soil to the pots they are in with them in there, ANY IDEAS thanks guys, or girls!!!!

 

[master shake]

I would remove them from the pots and shake off as much soil as possible without damaging the roots and replant into a new mix. DON'T FORGET THE LIME!

 

[Trillyen]

I would remove them from the pots and shake off as much soil as possible without damaging the roots and replant into a new mix. DON'T FORGET THE LIME!

so is there a transplanting procedure i should do because id be really scard to transplant them at such a young age!!!!

Is there like a stciky on here i should follow???

i really need help guys!!!

 

[JackTheGrower]

Well yes...

I'm not up to date on your PH issue but what PH is your water?

What are you using to measure PH?

I am a bit unsure of why PH is such a problem.


Transplanting is all about being as easy on the roots as possible.
I avoid transplanting for that reason.

Your Plants may stall in growth at first but they will recover.. Mostly it adds days to the grow cycle that's all.

now to transplant i recommend some liquid Kelp be on hand..

Mix a light solution of liquid kelp http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kelp

However, Lets look at your PH issue... you may not have a problem at all.

You know.. Organic growing is really easy/simple.. All these product and methods people sport are extensions of the basic common sense of organic gardening.
profits and power are the reason for hawking commercial products.

Sure some things are more an exact science however, for a beginner I can show you that we can start with plain peat moss and grow fine herb.

Nature is the power not Brand X this Brand Y that.

So relax...

Post or email.. I'm avail on Skype for Video help


Jack

 

[Trillyen]

Well yes...

I'm not up to date on your PH issue but what PH is your water?

What are you using to measure PH?

I am a bit unsure of why PH is such a problem.


Transplanting is all about being as easy on the roots as possible.
I avoid transplanting for that reason.

Your Plants may stall in growth at first but they will recover.. Mostly it adds days to the grow cycle that's all.

now to transplant i recommend some liquid Kelp be on hand..

Mix a light solution of liquid kelp http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kelp

However, Lets look at your PH issue... you may not have a problem at all.

You know.. Organic growing is really easy/simple.. All these product and methods people sport are extensions of the basic common sense of organic gardening.
profits and power are the reason for hawking commercial products.

Sure some things are more an exact science however, for a beginner I can show you that we can start with plain peat moss and grow fine herb.

Nature is the power not Brand X this Brand Y that.

So relax...

Post or email.. I'm avail on Skype for Video help


Jack

wow, thanks for the help man... my ph of my run off water is like 5.0, and the water im watering with is like 8.5

im using that high of a ph to try to bring my soils ph up

im measuring my ph with general hydros liquid drop tests, and its pretty good yes i know a digital meter would be best but its all i can afford as of the moment

To bring my ph up i have been using baking soda, and to bring it down i have been using white distilled vinegar to bring it down is that ok???

My soil mix is 50 % worm casting and 50 % jiffy organic potting soil mix, yep i know thats terrible, i started out way wrong like some one said before my soil is to ACIDIC, but i really dont wanna transplant right now un less i absolutley have to, id rather take clones when they get older, after i sex them to just start all over with the right set up

but yes can u please help me???

 

[JackTheGrower]

Dude...


My "IMO" is fuck that.

The Hydro is bunk in Soil.. IMO



Okay so you have this soil.. You just are not in command. Nature is..


So you say dark leaves...

Well that has to do with the reflective properties of light..

You didn't say your seedlings are dieing so I assume you are yanking our chain.

I still don't know what the dark color is and i have asked.. so i can't comment on that. New To me.. LOL

Look Organics is like sucking the Breast of the goddess.. It's nurturing and enjoyable.

Where the hell are you?

I need some help to understand.. i welcome anyone that knows these parameters. I'm a humble natural organic Man..


jack

 

[Pimpslapped]

Dark leaves can be a sign of high Nitrogen levels, and not necessarily a problem if the plants are allowed to veg long enough to use up much of the N. I've run into that myself, and it can lead to issues if you flower too soon. Or at least it did in my case. Clawing leaves and seemingly slowed things down a bit. That last could be in my head though.

Not sure about the blackish looking new growth. It could be something similar. You say it's like dirt or something was sprinkled on it. Is it spotty, or is all of the new growth dark and it fades evenly?

 

[Microbeman]

Listen to Jack. Stop trying to manipulate your pH. It, as you stated, is not necessary growing naturally. There should be nothing wrong with planting in 50% worm castings IF they come from a reliable source. I plant seeds/plantlings in 100% vermicompost all the time.

 

[Trillyen]

Dude...


My "IMO" is fuck that.

The Hydro is bunk in Soil.. IMO



Okay so you have this soil.. You just are not in command. Nature is..


So you say dark leaves...

Well that has to do with the reflective properties of light..

You didn't say your seedlings are dieing so I assume you are yanking our chain.

I still don't know what the dark color is and i have asked.. so i can't comment on that. New To me.. LOL

Look Organics is like sucking the Breast of the goddess.. It's nurturing and enjoyable.

Where the hell are you?

I need some help to understand.. i welcome anyone that knows these parameters. I'm a humble natural organic Man..


jack

First off wow, LMAO u r funny man,and soil, but i think that hydro is just cool cause of the roots being so exposed, and actually being able to see them

The new growth on the new leaf sets on my white widow plant are ALL pretty much black, but as the leafs mature the blackness goes away, but its not normal i know, cause i use to grow before, but never this professional

no not yanking your chain and yes i had a white widow stop growing on me and a AK-48 i pulled them both cause i dont have time to be messing with stunted plants but i was really pissed tho

Dark leaves can be a sign of high Nitrogen levels, and not necessarily a problem if the plants are allowed to veg long enough to use up much of the N. I've run into that myself, and it can lead to issues if you flower too soon. Or at least it did in my case. Clawing leaves and seemingly slowed things down a bit. That last could be in my head though.

Not sure about the blackish looking new growth. It could be something similar. You say it's like dirt or something was sprinkled on it. Is it spotty, or is all of the new growth dark and it fades evenly?

WOW, i hope it is a sign of high nitrogen, and not a bad thing the growth seems real good but i just dont know about this black new leaf growth but i know i dont like it

my hydro plants were even doing it for a minute but they have stopped the look for now, and seem to be growing REALLY fast now

i guess as long as they keep growing im good, but i cant point it directly to 1 strain cause all my plants were doing it, and it seemsNO ONE has EVER seen this before, and yes its like all black NOT spotty like a light black, but yes it does go away as the leafs get older

Listen to Jack. Stop trying to manipulate your pH. It, as you stated, is not necessary growing naturally. There should be nothing wrong with planting in 50% worm castings IF they come from a reliable source. I plant seeds/plantlings in 100% vermicompost all the time.

Hmm i hope that is the case man i got a white widow plant that is really something to see it has awesome leaflets on it they are so fat, and it started side branching really early also

i think my first plants just died because of under watering

thats my guess cause my soil is really compacted because of all the worm casting im guessing!!!

 

[JackTheGrower]

Look, my advice is quit trying to balance the PH.

Nature will take care of that.

This isn't like Hydro.

First if your tap is really 8.5 you might sour that up to 6.8 with organic cider vinegar..

But that's all I would worry about..

I had failed to understand why your PH was whacked out, i think we are just worrying too much..

You see in the soil there are micro-organisms that actually interact with the plants roots and these guys are symbiotic with the soil food web and the plant.

So life itself is the basis of organic gardening. If we supply the raw materials in correct amounts and show some care in our husbandry then we have healthy plants.

So toss the Hydro ideas out. Common sense is your tool now..

learn about what materials provides the N-P-K's what trace elements are and such.

I recommend starting with the materials you want to use. Mix them together, lightly water, and let stand a few days so any chemical interactions get done with.
By that maybe the bat guano might interact with the dolomite or some such thing.
Once the soil mix has stood it's safe to use on tender seedlings.

So relax... There is a learning curve to organic soil but the rewards are fabulous.

Compost! i can't over state the utility of composting. I've been using the same soil over 8 years now because of the wonders of composting.

So have read... Relax and soon you will have skills that last a lifetime and get better as you grow older.


Jack

wow, thanks for the help man... my ph of my run off water is like 5.0, and the water im watering with is like 8.5

im using that high of a ph to try to bring my soils ph up

im measuring my ph with general hydros liquid drop tests, and its pretty good yes i know a digital meter would be best but its all i can afford as of the moment

To bring my ph up i have been using baking soda, and to bring it down i have been using white distilled vinegar to bring it down is that ok???

My soil mix is 50 % worm casting and 50 % jiffy organic potting soil mix, yep i know thats terrible, i started out way wrong like some one said before my soil is to ACIDIC, but i really dont wanna transplant right now un less i absolutley have to, id rather take clones when they get older, after i sex them to just start all over with the right set up

but yes can u please help me???

 

[JackTheGrower]

Dark leaves can be a sign of high Nitrogen levels, and not necessarily a problem if the plants are allowed to veg long enough to use up much of the N. I've run into that myself, and it can lead to issues if you flower too soon. Or at least it did in my case. Clawing leaves and seemingly slowed things down a bit. That last could be in my head though.

Not sure about the blackish looking new growth. It could be something similar. You say it's like dirt or something was sprinkled on it. Is it spotty, or is all of the new growth dark and it fades evenly?

High nitrogen and cold temps.. In seedlings.. I have seen a little but not an epidemic.

My B-59 has a purple/dark stem at first.. Shows the degree of Indica that .. That seed expresses...

Weird to me.. all black. Makes me wonder about the Photosynthesis..

Is there some issue in.. AH if the PH changes and the plant's metabolism is interrupted suddenly.. That works for me...
A sudden uptake of acid could turn the leaves black,,, Ah Ha!

Then, again, i just don't have any experience in such things.


Jack

 

[JackTheGrower]

After Thought: Remember that Leaves are food storage!

So whatever the roots uptake the plant tries to store...

Must be an imbalance in nutrients or some such crap.. I don't know.. I've had healthy plants through out.


Jack

 

[Pimpslapped]

It'd be easier with good pictures to look at and see exactly what's going on. No two people will describe the same problem the same way, so that does make some things tricky. But we do the best with what we have.

Jack's got good advice, there is a bit of a learning curve with organics and in a lot of ways, the whole life cycle of the plants is somewhat dependant upon the way you build that batch of dirt before the seeds ever get set in. I'm going to be dabbling in coco a little, I think... to try the other side of the coin. I love organics, but have had a few issues and am running into storage, space and a little stealth issues. (Small apartment, not a lot of space to store bags of cow crap, worm castings, etc... no real room to compost and run a worm bin, which I would really like to do.. )

The 50/50 worm castings/soil mix really isn't a bad start, IMO... though I would have cut in some perlite or something to lighten the soil up and improve aeration/drainage. Some dolomite(garden) lime to help even the PH out... but if you can build a healthy microherd, that will help cover your bases a bit even this late in the game.

 

[Trillyen]

Look, my advice is quit trying to balance the PH.

Nature will take care of that.

This isn't like Hydro.

First if your tap is really 8.5 you might sour that up to 6.8 with organic cider vinegar..

But that's all I would worry about..

I had failed to understand why your PH was whacked out, i think we are just worrying too much..

You see in the soil there are micro-organisms that actually interact with the plants roots and these guys are symbiotic with the soil food web and the plant.

So life itself is the basis of organic gardening. If we supply the raw materials in correct amounts and show some care in our husbandry then we have healthy plants.

So toss the Hydro ideas out. Common sense is your tool now..

learn about what materials provides the N-P-K's what trace elements are and such.

I recommend starting with the materials you want to use. Mix them together, lightly water, and let stand a few days so any chemical interactions get done with.
By that maybe the bat guano might interact with the dolomite or some such thing.
Once the soil mix has stood it's safe to use on tender seedlings.

So relax... There is a learning curve to organic soil but the rewards are fabulous.

Compost! i can't over state the utility of composting. I've been using the same soil over 8 years now because of the wonders of composting.

So have read... Relax and soon you will have skills that last a lifetime and get better as you grow older.


Jack

Thanks jack that is some really good advice, and yes all the factors u said may be the contributing factors to my prob but i dont think photosynthisis is one of the probs tho, IMO

i figured that the roots were really compacted in the soil seeing that its a 50 50 ewc, and soil mix, it looks mostly like a ALL worm casting mix now, almost like the worm casting is all i used, so im guessing the roots are not getting alot of oxygen, hell on one of my seedlings i ran out of soil mix so i had to use like 95 % ewc, it died but i believe it was from under watering, so i drench my babies every night, and as needed

Do u guys think it would help if i poured some perlite on top of the soil, and watered regularly??

it would eventually work its way down and loosen up the soil right??

i really dont think its to much of a prob now tho seeing as my pots are drainging pretty good from the bottom now, THANK GOD

Jack i would love to know your recipe for a good compost tea

My first tea was a flop, i think i added to much EWC ( didnt think that it mattered ) i added like 4 or 5 cups of a EWC, and some dirty bottom of the rock fish water from my freshwater aquarium, and like 5 tbsp of grandmas molasses ( no sulfur)

it didnt do anything at all hardly

you mentioned something about a bat guano, can i get that at a grocery store, or do i have to go to a hydro shop??

alot of the materials mentioned for the veg and flowering stages i have no idea what they are or where to get them please enlighten me on this also

dont know if this will help but in the pics at the bottom the first few pics are my beautiful unsexed white widow, and some other unknown bag seed strains

the bag seed strains seemed to have stopped the black leaf growing but the white widow is still doing it but getting a little better, i really hope the pics help they are not that good, and i cant wait for your recipe advice for me

please dont forget im new to this organic thing,but i really would like to do it the right way no matter what the cost

so please tell me what i need and where to get it at

Thank you!!!

It'd be easier with good pictures to look at and see exactly what's going on. No two people will describe the same problem the same way, so that does make some things tricky. But we do the best with what we have.

Jack's got good advice, there is a bit of a learning curve with organics and in a lot of ways, the whole life cycle of the plants is somewhat dependant upon the way you build that batch of dirt before the seeds ever get set in. I'm going to be dabbling in coco a little, I think... to try the other side of the coin. I love organics, but have had a few issues and am running into storage, space and a little stealth issues. (Small apartment, not a lot of space to store bags of cow crap, worm castings, etc... no real room to compost and run a worm bin, which I would really like to do.. )

The 50/50 worm castings/soil mix really isn't a bad start, IMO... though I would have cut in some perlite or something to lighten the soil up and improve aeration/drainage. Some dolomite(garden) lime to help even the PH out... but if you can build a healthy microherd, that will help cover your bases a bit even this late in the game.

yea sorry about the lack of pics, but here u guys go, and what is coco dont tell me u r gonna be putting choclate on or in your soil, lol that be some good weed to smoke with a women huh??

lol

i really would like to know all the materials im gonna need for my first fert cause its coming up so i plan to have a good brew by at least monday

thanks for the help guys!!!

Oh and thanks for the vote of confidence pimpslapped, that really helps cause im so unsure of my grow right now all i know is that they are groing great right now, but showing a little calcium defiency on the leafs but growing real well

thanks again!!!

 

[Pimpslapped]

Those do look pretty good Trill. I take it the first two pics are of the un sexed Widow? I see the dark spots on the lower leaves, but I'm not able to place the issue. It almost looks like, to my eye, that the new growth is showing a purpling from purple stems? I could be off though. Been a long night, so I'm not at my best either.

On your tea, yeah, it sounds like you used WAY too much stuff, but I'm far from a tea expert. Making a simple worm castings tea... I had good luck with just plain tap water allowed to sit out for a day or two to evap chlorine, 1 spoonfull of molasses, about 5 spoons of worm castings and a spoon or two of kelp meal. That in about 3/4 of a gallon of water, bubbled with an aquarium airstone for about 12 -24 hours and I'd have a good foam. With teas, and such, I started light and it worked.

It's always easier to add to a grow than to take things out. As for top dressing with perlite? I don't think that would really make much difference with your setup now. Skim through the first page or two of the organics for beginners post in the stickies section. There's some good info there on basic soil mixes and ratios to use with nutes in the mix. When in doubt, go a little bit light on them. You can top dress a bit with dolomite lime and water through that, it can help. Can also help a little with the cal def, I think. I'm still a bit of a beginner in the organics field.

The guanos, no, not going to be able to get them at the grocery store. At least I can't find them around here. They're more bat guano, seabird guano, etc... ferts that are often found through hydro or garden supply places. There's nowhere for me to get them around here myself, so I've had to make due without. Mostly ust used molasses+kelp+Earthworm castings in my teas, but there's a LOT of information in the stickies at the top of this thread about alternates.

And coco? I'm talking about Coco Coir, or coconut fiber/husks. It's an alternate growing medium. There's a separate subforum on here dedicated to it. I'm going to use it as a simple soilless mix, pretty much, I think.

 

[JackTheGrower]

Each gardener does his/her own thing on compost mixes.

My thing is a perpetual soil in that I add raw materials to the soil in the grow box and "fire it up" feeding the microorganisms a serving of greens and browns. It's not an easy way to do things.
I have even grown a cover crop ( see green manure thread ) http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=66420&highlight=green+manure

That's how I run my garden.

I believe I would do you the most good by saying there are many "mixes" already posted in this forum. I would be correct to say I don't have a "mix" I can recommend as again I do what I do.


I have made some exotic mixes in my compost tumbler.

However, that is all fancy-dancy.
You will be alright with the mixes you will read about here.
You will do alright buying soil mixes from a nursery most likely ( look out for redwood it binds too much nitrogen for MJ IMO )

I would be happy to grab some quality mix from a nursery and mix some peat moss and perlite in it just to start.

It just going to take some time to read up. I used to spend hours and hours investigating materials and methods.. i do love Organic soil and have since I was a kid.

The bottom line is start simply. Applying the greatest teas and feed can work okay but only if your foundation is solid.

If you want i can tell you more about how i do things.. Like I brew coffee and add fish emulsion, liquid kelp, honey or blackstrap unsulphured molasses Azomite + what ever else I feel i need and feed with that.
I like coffee.. I sprinkle Foldgers as a side dressing.

Like I say to each their own.. I'm not trying to be normal.

So I'd try something simple first and work my way up.

It helps to know the life cycle of cannabis.. Because we gardeners mostly agree we feed more nitrogen during veg and less during flower.

Oh I am a proponent of large root space. I believe in big pots for large root space but, that's my opinion.

BTW your plants don't look all that bad.. I expected much worse.

Jack

 

[Microbeman]

Your plants look fine. The initial off colored leaves are normal in many strains.
For your soil: Your pots are small so just mix up some new soil in 5 gallon pails, including perilite or some such fluffer along with your soil or peat and your worm castings and transplant into these once you roots fill the little pots. Next time just plant right into the larger pots. Organics does much better with a larger volume of soil and eventually you may use bins, leaving your soil intact.

Don't worry about the guano--not necessary. You can grow just fine as you are, using some well made compost teas and some GOOD QUALITY fish hydrolysate (Organic Gem is good and some people may know others; avoid Alaskan Fish Emulsion).

Aerated Compost Teas; You would be best to build a proper brewer or buy one ready made but you can get away with using a small container (e.g. one gallon jar) with an aquarium pump - compost or worm compost at a rate of around 2.5% by volume (less than half a cup for a gallon); black strap non-sulfured molasses at 0.5 to 0.75% by volume; kelp meal 0.25% by volume; fish hydrolysate 0.063% by volume; To promote flagellates throw in a pinch of alfalfa meal (non-salted). Over 24 to 36 hours this should give you a nutrient cycling microbial consortia. Do not brew longer than 48 hours unless you use a microscope and use the tea within 4 hours of finishing the brew. If you are using an airstone you are better off getting glass bonded stones through Aquatic Eco or elsewhere (Sweetwater brand is the best). They do not get eaten by the microbes like many cheap ones. If you put your compost in a mesh bag you should also have a stone/diffuser in there.