Why not breed ALL f1's together for a larger possibility of phenos?

[medmaker420]

A question to those who know the answer.

I have a decent amount of f1's that I have going at the moment and want to work on the f2's by crossing these f1's together.

What is the benefit in crossing only 1 male to a couple females versus getting as many different male and female f1's crossed.

Wouldn't having the larger gene pool end up better since you will be bringing out potential recessive genes that might not be showing in what looks like weaker f1's?

I want to have the largest selection possible and think that using ALL the male f1's I can find and pollinate each and every "different" f1 female I can will produce the most broad and potential better results.

any thoughts

 

[sashiva]

you don't use "shitty" males for the same reason you don't try getting someone with downs syndrome to bang a nobel prize winner to get a genius baby. with good males you KNOW that there are good genetics to be had because they're dominant enough to make it to the phenotype. overall i guess its about the whole concept of selective breeding which im willing to wager you don't know much about since you're asking this question

 

[medmaker420]

you don't use "shitty" males for the same reason you don't try getting someone with downs syndrome to bang a nobel prize winner to get a genius baby. with good males you KNOW that there are good genetics to be had because they're dominant enough to make it to the phenotype. overall i guess its about the whole concept of selective breeding which im willing to wager you don't know much about since you're asking this question

I get the point of breeding out the best but what if what really is best is actually a recessive gene that you can't see in the f1's and will only see once the f1's are bred to bring out the recessive and MAYBE even better traits.

For instance how could you breed out a recessive gene in a plant simply based on that plant looking better than others when you couldn't tell which plant actually carried the recessive gene? Would selective breeding still work the same, for some reason I don't think so and is why I am asking.

 

[medmaker420]

you don't use "shitty" males for the same reason you don't try getting someone with downs syndrome to bang a nobel prize winner to get a genius baby.

What if the "genuis baby traits" only came out by two downs syndrome people making babies. Since it would be a recessive trait you really wouldn't know about the recessive "genuis baby" trait because most would be more interested in 2 smart or 2 cute people having kids.

More of a dominant versus recessive trait breeding issue for me I guess. I want to know why assume the recessive traits are less important or not worth the effort IF they could produce something far better than what the parents were showing dominantly.

 

[Colina]

There you go Medmaker420,

Cast the broadest net possible this early in the morning, then later you can lay it down with pics of the one that didn't get away

 

[African herbman]

Hey medmaker420. These are my thoughts on the matter, hope I can help at least a bit.

The way I see it is, if you grow out a large amount of F1's then you should theoretically get a decent amount of potential breeding parents. By that I mean plants that exibit the desired traits your after. Breeding the best males to the best females should theoretically produce a larger amount of good progency. Breeding undesirable plants with desirable ones should produce a lower amount of good progency since those undesirable genes would have been passed down to some of the ofspring.

I understand that you want to breed them all to potentialy find killer ressesive traits BUT, the few undesirable ones will pass on some of those traits to some of the progency which I suppose may become ressesive traits later and show up when you don't want them too.

I recon simply keeping undesirable traits out of the gene pool, well, keeps them out of the gene pool lol.
I think the purpose of selective breeding is to breed out the bad and bring out the good

I am no breeder, this is just my outlook...

I think that if you want to find as many different expressions as possible, grow out as many F2's as possible as thats were you will find the most variation.

Good luck with your project man, Ah.

 

[medmaker420]

thank you guys for your thoughts on the subject. I guess the recessive thing just plays with my head a bit, for instance.

Lets say I have found 1 strong growing male and female that looks the best out of the whole bunch but they have a shitty recessive gene that gets passed on. Since it isn't dominate it would still get passed anyways I would assume.

I think I could dance around the "what if" all day though and only one way to tell. I guess I could breed the good with the good and the bad with the bad and just run two separate lines just in case something shows up later on down the road to bottleneck my project.

 

[medmaker420]

I just found this article and thought I would post it here since it deals with recessive traits and so on. I think there is something to the recessive traits but do see the point in first selecting the best breeders then isolating those possible recessive traits later. Either way there is validation to recessive that might not show in the "best of the best" or that one like myself might THINK is the best out of all of my selection.

A little info from DJ Shorts on recessive traits

http://www.cannabisculture.com/articles/2788.html

---------

Recessive combination

A word needs to be said about the not-too-common probabilities of what I generally refer to as a recessive combination phenomenon. Sometimes, though not often, two parents that appear to express a common desirable trait ? let's say a sweet/fruity bouquet ? are crossed and the progeny do not express the desirable trait.

This usually means that one or both parents possessed some sort of recessive alleles in their genotype for this characteristic. But it could also mean that the progeny had a different environment that the parents.

If environment can be ruled out then it is likely that some sort of a genetic recessive combination is the cause. If none of the progeny express the desired characteristic one may want to cross the progeny with itself and see what the outcome is.

If a common "Punnet ratio" such as 25% of a progeny express the desirable trait, then the trait is more than likely recessive and the trait may be stabilized via crossing any two of the 25% (or whatever common ratio) that show the desired trait with each other. This process is time consuming and is generally followed only if no other alternatives exist.

 

[dank.frank]

I think, for all practical purposes...you HAVE to test every male. It is OBVIOUS which female you are wanting to use...but the male can be tricky.

Clone EVERYTHING. Assume you find you have 5 females and 5 males; then, at least one clone of every male, and 6 clones of every female. You find your selected female, lose the other 4....and its clones. Keep one clone of your female, that is your mom. Take the other 5 clones and put each on in its very own little flowering chamber. Say under a 200w 2700k Enviro-light or something along these lines. In each little chamber, you put the clone for each of your males. So you have female k (k for keeper) with male a. Female K with male b, female k with male c....etc. Now all your micro-chamber or isolation chambers are on 12/12...let them have a party. You now have you prize female, studded by each male, with an opportune amount of seeds for testing the progeny that each one produces.

Grow the progeny from male a. Don't like it, toss it and the male parent. Grow the progeny from K and b...don't like it, toss it and the male parent. Grow progeny for k and c....OHHH wait...there are the desirable traits you were looking for...

This is the only tried and true way to know for sure what a male does...by it's progeny.

HOWEVER...if you did this ALL THE TIME...you would start to notice a trend in males, and you would be able to discern what a given male is capable of, IN THEORY...which is what most breeders are capable of, also in theory. If they are not, well, they don't last a very long time...hahaha.

This tiring and extensive process is what some don't do. They figure one elite dad is as good as the next, b/c of the name it has behind it...well, we know that isn't the case. Gotta hunt for the males, just like you gotta hunt for the females...except it takes a bit more time to see the final product (its offspring) of a male.

Well, that is how I would do it...to kinda avoid breeding ALL F1's together...don't see a reason to keep a lesser female around, ya know?


dank.Frank

 

[Late_Night_Toke]

what if they dont ALL mix well dominant and recessive traits will prevail, and if done correctly you could have ALL deepchunk like F2s but 10 fold and more deepchunk like occurances with dominant traits

the effects of your male on the line may never be known. its not a good idea to use just one male tho. Why buy one raffle ticket if you can buy 10, never know which one is the winner. using what you think, and will never know, is the best male is just foolish, but if you use all the males you can you are sure to Pass on the good genes and assure the ability to find him later. Passing on bad genes or worrying about dominant or recessive traits is not as big of a worry. Focusing on this actually might hurt your line. Not eliminating unknown good traits, and not eliminating useless/harmless ones is the focus.

sometimes what your trying to get rid of is holding hands with what you want

making as many F1 crosses as possible with as many good males as possible in as many directions as possible cant hurt, why wait to see if somone says it will

 

[Elevator Man]

As far as I'm aware, as long as the P1 parents are reasonably distinct from each other in genotype (say Thai X Afhgani), then it shouldn't matter which male/female combo you use, as long as both parents are strong, healthy, and show most of the traits you're after. If the genotype is as mixed as above, then every F1 plant will have the full complement of genes, recessive and dominant, and all will have the potential to 'unlock' what you're after.

The F2 generation is where you need to start being very careful with selection, especially males, and start growing larger numbers, as that is where you'll see the full spectrum of phenotypes displayed. That's how I understand the principle, anyway.

Obviously crossing less distinct, or related P1 parents in the first place will simplify some issues, and complicate others. Crossing Flo with, say, Skunk#1 or Malawi Gold gave me fairly standard and similar F1s. Crossing Flo with itself gave me more variety of phenos, but that's because it's already many generations down the line, and the 'F' principle no longer reliably applies.

 

[medmaker420]

Makes sense to me for sure,

All of my f1's are uniform minus some mutant leafed plants which I think are coming from the ducksfoot from the males side.

One thing that is different though however.

One plant is putting out more points per leaf then the rest. Like when all the others have 5 points this one had 7 and when the others had 7 they had 9 and so on. All the others have the same "point" count as they grew MINUS this one so I don't know if it is a good or bad thing.

I will get pics once they all sex and choose my "keepers". Hell I might take pics of each and every one of them and have the forums help me decide the keepers based on pics.

 

[alpinestar]

yeah as long as you separate and tag each plant so you know what is pollinated with what

remember thats a lot of seeds to test, and also a lot of clones to take from the resulting plants...

 

[Brastaman]

This is the only tried and true way to know for sure what a male does...by it's progeny.

dank.Frank

lots of good information in this thread. just thought i would highlight this comment by DankFrank as i whole heartedly believe in treading through mud as the only way to guarantee to get real muddy.

 

[BurmeseDragon]

Ya I think cannabis has only gotten better because of people being very picky in their selection. Even a great male is going to pass on some genetics that are less favorable, that is why a good breeder always being picky only gets better.

To not start a new thread about this, I have been wondering what some recessive traits of cannabis are. Purple plants used to be more recessive, so perhaps what is recessive can become more dominant. Pink stamens have been pretty recessive and seem to remain that way.

So if people could list the more recessive traits that they have noticed, and the key here is also desired or to watch out for.

Ya, stick to hot parents; it saves time and delusions.

 

[Hash Zeppelin]

To start a strain from lanraces or f1's from the ground up with just 2 or three strains takes growing out thousands of plants and years to do.

Your idea is pretty cool i think, but it is like the building the pyramids of a breeding project. It would take years but the finished results could be incredable.

 

[DocLeaf]

Using several males and females is a good way of maintaining diversity in a seedline.
Recessive characteristics are liable to be displayed in the next generation each time.
Always aim to select the healthiest and widest range of parent plants.

All the best

 

[BENJI]

Interesting thread as i have just started breeding this year i think with F1's or pure lines it would be better to open pollenate then make your selections in the F2 line selecting desired traits in the females but as said b4 picking the males is hardest and takes time from now on i will be taking cuttings of everything and storing lots of pollen and makeing shit loads of beans and testing eveything on the largest scale possible 4 me im all about breeding now...

 

[englishrick]

IM GOING OUT ON A LIB HERE,,,,.....

BUT I ACTUALY THINK,,,,,


if i find a female that suits my taste.....then i choose a male from a seedline that i love too...i feel like i have identified traits!!.....



i MAKE THE "F1`s" ,,..

THEN i SELF THE BEST FEMALE CLONE from the F1 generation....the amount of phenos in the S1 seeds should be vast, so high plant numbers would be a real help...

select MANY!! S1 pheno`s for best taste, "do maximum stress tests too"...

lets say, you now have phenos 1#, 2#, 3#, 4# 5#,,, "all tasty S1 Phenos, all maximum stress tested,,, 1# being the best pheno"....

then, i dust pheno 5#...with true male polen from the F1 generation,..

then, i dust pheno 4# with males from [pheno5# x F1]

then, i dust pheno 3# with males from (pheno4# x [pheno5# x F1])

then, i dust pheno 2# with males from {pheno3# x (pheno4# x [pheno5# x F1])}




im thinkin as i get to pheno1# things are getting pretty Homogeneous....






after i dust pheno1#.....i then cross back to the 1st mother and start the real incrossing.....F1 F2 F3 etc

 

[fjällhöga]

s1 = f2 .... do your reading work first [ very usefull hint for everyone ]