Can I do anything else?

[DryAndHigh]

Even though I love all of you people I didn't want to be back here posting anytime soon , but here goes....

I'm 99% sure this is a Mg deficiency, but I'll fill this part out anyways...

How long has this problem been going on? 4 or 5 days
What STRAIN are you growing? alaskan ice/various bag seeds
What was the establishing technique? (seed or clone?) seed
What is the age of your plants? 3 weeks
How Tall are the plants? 3-5 in
What PHASE (seedling, vegetative or flower) are the plants in? veggin
What size pots are you using? 4" pots now, just moved from cups
What substrate/medium are you using? What brand of soil mixture are you using? LC's mix: 5parts peat:3 perlite:2 worm castings w/ added dolomite lime
What Nutrient's are you using? only a 1/2 dose of fish emulsion so far also silica blast + seaweed (0-0-1) every other watering
How much of each nutrient are you using with how much water? *Knowing the brand is very helpful* 1/2 tbls FE/capful Neptune's Harvest 0-0-1/7 drops Silica blast all per gallon water
How often are you feeding? one shot of FE so far. Seaweed/Silica have been added twice and will be used at every other watering and FE per BurnOne's directions
What is the pH of the "RUN-OFF"? Haven't tested, but everything that goes in is 6.5 +- .1
What method of pH test was administered? Using Strips? pH pen? pen
How often are you watering? lightly everyday as to not overwater (using potlift method and I don't feel that I'm doing it improperly)
When was your last feeding and how often are you feeding? thursday I gave them silica blast/seaweed when transplanting. Does this even count as a feeding? Plan on giving them another half shot of fish emulsion tomorrow
What size bulb are you using? 2 40W T12s
What is the distance to the canopy? few inches
What is your RH Factor? (Relative Humidity) 40-50
What is the canopy temperature? stays low 70s day round pretty much
Is the fan blowing directly at plants? lightly
Is the grow substrate constantly wet or moist? moist at most and are watered when light
Is your water HARD or SOFT?
What water are you using? tap

I won't be able to add pictures till Monday, but here's stiches' description of a Mg deficiency:

Magnesium is one of the easiest deficiencies to tell… the green veins along with the yellowness of the entire surrounding leave is a dead giveaway, but sometimes that’s not always the case here. In case you have one of those where it doesn’t show the green veins, sometimes leaf tips and edges may discolor and curl upward. The growing tips can turn lime green when the deficiency progresses to the top of the plant. The edges will feel like dry and crispy and usually affects the lower leaves in younger plants, then will affect the middle to upper half when it gets older, but It can also happen on older leaves as well. The deficiency will start at the tip then will take over the entire outer left and right sides of the leaves. The inner part will be yellow and or brownish in color, followed by leaves falling without withering. The tips can also twist and turn as well as curving upwards as if you curl your tongues.

Everything in bold is what I have. Additionally the middle vein that divides the leaf is red coming from the stem. The problem is only on the first set of true leaves, however on one it has just started on the tip of a leaf on the 2nd set

Before Thursday they were only in peat+perlite, given pHed water (i.e. not overfed) and were prob lacking N but I'm feeding slowly and there's some N in my mix w/ the worm castings so they should be okay on that.. i guess..?

*I think* the problem is Mg and I have them in that mix but I didn't let it cook. It was only mixed thoroughly a bunch of times over a 24 hr period and I read that dolomite lime is slow acting. So should I add some fast acting Mg? That's if you agree w/ me that it is Mg.. if it's not lemme know

Shit I just read somewhere that Mg doesn't show up this quick. I think it was a link from George Cervantes' book. Can this even be magnesium this quickly? First grow, I spent countless hours reading and I want this to go well.

Damn, I guess a picture is worth a thousand words. lol. Sorry for the long post, but I would really appreciate some help. Thanks a lot.

 

[MynameStitch]

Did you add the lime to your mixture yourself?

Cause the picture that you see in my guide does yours look like that?

yes can easily happen around that time, how long have they been in that mixture? see the problem is your plants are 3 to 5 in tall and should NOT be getting that dosage, so it sounds like to me you may be feeding them too much and locking out magneisum.

Or your plants are lacking it, one of the 2 or pH is off..... just cause pH goes in at one value does not mean it comes out the same, once the mixture and water react the pH changes.

For plants that size they should NOT be fed with dosages like that....... pictures are definatly going to be needed to fix this problem out.

 

[DryAndHigh]

edit - blahblahblah

 

[DryAndHigh]

alright, my roommate took pictures on w/ shitty phone camera. the first 4 are a plant from bagseed and the last 5 are pictures of an Alaskan Ice phone. hmm they look so much darker when not under the floros..

I'm pretty lost as to the cause of this, but I'll answer any questions that anyone may have if they think it will help to figure this out.. Thanks, guys.

edit - I should add that these are two of the worst and showed signs first.

 

[MynameStitch]

Plants are hungry, how often are you feeding them?

Fish emulsion will fix that problem right now but always remember you go by the size of the plant not the directions. Fish emulsion is pretty light though so you can use around 1/2 teaspoon per gallon to 1 tsp per gallon when they get bigger

 

[DryAndHigh]

thanks, Stitch, that makes more sense.

every 3rd watering, but I've fed them once so far. Today they are due for their 2nd feeding.

The gallon of water that I mixed up has 1/2 of a tablespoon FE. I guess I'll have to cut that gallon in half... that would be 3/4 teaspoons if my math's right.. I'll cut it by a little more to get closer to the 1/2 teaspoon..

From what I've read those leaves won't be able to be fixed, but should I use it every other watering until the problem stops spreading?

thanks again for the help, Stitch.

 

[habeeb]

might be N def, but the other leaves don't look yellow at all ???

 

[DryAndHigh]

Only the first set of true leaves are yellow. There's only one leaf on one of my 9 plants where it's on the 2nd set and it's a pale yellow collor. But so far it's only on the tip and probably only 2 millimeters big in any direction.

The only problems that the other leaves are showing are in the edges of the leaves and some twisting. On the tips of some, the edges are pointing up and have what can best be described as a twist in the leaf. It gets worse (the teething and twisting) as you go down the plant. From what I've read that's means it's mobile, right?

 

[tree&leaf]

What's LC's mix? Is that a commerical soil or something you've made up yourself from a formula? How much dolomite lime did you put in? The cups they were in originally, did they have sufficient drainage? Why are you feeding fish emulsion and seaweed at 3 weeks?

There's a lot here I don't understand, particularly the soil mix and why you're feeding so soon.

Your plant has Mg deficiency for sure, but what I'm trying to understand is what's caused it, but I need answers to my questions.

 

[stinkyattic]

Mg def? I see none of the characteristic striping associated with Mg def.
The plant as a whole looks excellent, with two sick low leaves. These could be lacking in Nitrogen, due to not enough or it not being available enough- I am actually wondering whether the yellowing appeared before you transplanted, since you say you just did that. It is possible that the damage occurred in part or in whole due to conditions that no longer exist.
If that plant were in my garden, having just been transplanted to a new home, with damage that was there when it was in its old home, I'd let the leaves drop and watch for any other damage, which I don't see in your pictures. In fact, IMVHO, your plants look excellent, with damaged low leaves.

You will be needing a fertilizer that has correct levels of micronutes pretty soon. Fish, seaweed, and silica blast are great but not 'complete'.

 

[HeadyPete]

I'm with Stinky.....no mag def, and they look mighty green to be suffering from N def....I think it may be a past issue as well...keep an eye on em.

 

[tree&leaf]

Mg def? I see none of the characteristic striping associated with Mg def. The plant as a whole looks excellent, with two sick low leaves. These could be lacking in Nitrogen, due to not enough or it not being available enough

How can they be lacking N when he's been feeding them fish emulsion? Fish emulsion has N in large quantities and not only in large quantities but in plant assimilatable forms to boot. There's no way those plants are N deficient, particularly as the two affected leaves show classic signs of Mg deficiency, I would have thought you of all people would know that.

Leaves lacking in N go yellow ALL OVER before becoming necrotic and shrivelling and falling off. Mg leaves yellow at the tips and form brown blotches on them - exactly what those leaves look like in his post #4. It's also fairly common knowledge that cold water logged soils lock out Mg.

The real question (at least for me) is what caused it, the soil mix or the previous pots they were in. If it's the soil mix, it'll happen again after repotting. Forget Micro nutrients, his problem exists at the moment with Macro mobiles.

 

[HeadyPete]

There has only been one feeding total of fish emulsion at 1/2 dose....but as Stinky stated, it was probably a recent feeding and that def started prior to the FE feeding.

 

[stinkyattic]

Tree before you pick apart my post, read it again. Yellow leaves have little N in the yellow tissues, by definition. That is a fact. WHY the plant has taken it out is the question- are they getting too little light? Too much water that is keeping the plant from using available nutes? Too little pot space in the pots that the OP said he JUST transplanted from? I NEVER said the plants are N deficient. In fact, I stated that I think they look great, with two bad leaves!

Magnesium deficient leaves show distinct stripes between the veins, not an allover yellow paleness. There is NO Mg def on those plants.

The plants look healthy. We are arguing over two crappy leaves which, for all I know, may have been in the dark under the canopy and are jsut being sloughed off by a plant that has no use for them any more besides sucking the rest of the stored nutrients out of them before they drop- hence the loss of color. Honeslty, with the leaves that dark, I would be more worried that he gave them too MUCH fish glop, unless the strain is supposed to have that bluish tint, but there's no other evidence of overfert so no worries.

 

[tree&leaf]

Yellow leaves have little N in the yellow tissues, by definition. That is a fact.

Yellow leaves have little of anything in them, that's why they're yellow! That's also a fact!

The leaf stops photosynthesising and without photosynthesis the leaf doesn't produce chlorophyll, it's the chlorophyll that makes the leaf appear green to us, because the only part of the visible light spectrum the plant does not absorb is - green, which is reflected.

WHY the plant has taken it out is the question

Indeed it is.

I NEVER said the plants are N deficient.

These could be lacking in Nitrogen, due to not enough or it not being available enough

You're right, you never even hinted at it!

Magnesium deficient leaves show distinct stripes between the veins, not an allover yellow paleness. There is NO Mg def on those plants.

You've clearly never seen an Mg deficient leaf then, because those leaves are TYPICALLY Mg deficient, (and I do know, because I've had plenty of them, that looked just like those) and there is NO all over pale yellow with those leaves, they're just yellow at the tips.

The plants look healthy. We are arguing over two crappy leaves

The original poster asked what was affecting his plant and the answer is - Mg deficiency.

Now, the question is, why and what's causing it, because unless you identify the cause, he may well get it again, even though he's probably stopped it by transplanting. Transplanting into fresh soil will stop most deficiencies initially, because it gives the plant a new set of soil to feed from. That's why the plant looks healthy to you, but you're still ignoring what the initial cause was.

The initial cause may well have been the pots/over-watering/lack of drainage even high water TDS, but without really knowing - you're guessing. If your guess is wrong and it's the soil, then he'll get the same problem again won't he?

That soil looks questionable to me, because it doesn't appear to have a balance of NPK to sustain healthy growth. Where's the compost/fertiliser component in that soil?

 

[tree&leaf]

DryAndHigh

I did some research on your soil mix (because I was curious) and found the same soil mix shown in the 'Organics for beginners' thread. What you've listed is the 'basic' soil mix, to that you need to add the plant 'food/nutrient' components as listed in that thread.

Did you add any food components to that soil mix? If you did, why didn't you list them? If you didn't, that's probably one of the causes of your problem and if you don't correct it, it'll soon happen again as I already said.

 

[mexilandrace]

Gonna go against what every has said and say that is the beginning of nute burn.

 

[stinkyattic]

Yellow leaves have little of anything in them, that's why they're yellow! That's also a fact!

Yes, okay...

The leaf stops photosynthesising and without photosynthesis the leaf doesn't produce chlorophyll, it's the chlorophyll that makes the leaf appear green to us, because the only part of the visible light spectrum the plant does not absorb is - green, which is reflected.

I promise I don't need the high school biology lesson- presence of light energy hitting a given leaf or branch induces the plant to produce chlorophyll, as well as hormones that encourage new growth at that bright location... will reference this later, because you are alluding to the facts behind what I believe to be wrong with the plant...

You're right, you never even hinted at it!

You go right on playing with the rolleyes smiley; the PLANT is not deficient in nitrogen at all; in fact, as I said in a previous post, the PLANT may have too much. Look how dark it is! Fish emulsion on a 4-5 node old plant is VERY likely to lead to N overdose. If that were a light-feeding sativa you would be seeing more obvious problems. The LEAVES, however, are lacking in everything (oh- there's where the 'there's nothing in yellow leaves' statement is relevant!), notably Nitrogen.
As I stated already:
"[the leaves have no color/mobile nutes because they] have been in the dark under the canopy and are jsut being sloughed off by a plant that has no use for them any more besides sucking the rest of the stored nutrients out of them before they drop- hence the loss of color."
Ironically you seem to have missed this if you felt the need to explain to me where chlorophyll comes from.

You've clearly never seen an Mg deficient leaf then.....

And here I just give up. I guess not. I've never seen any metals deficiency at all, never noted the repetitive patterns they produce on leaves, never successfully treated any...
If that leaf is suffering a Mg deficiency, it is secondary to the fact that as you said yourself, THERE IS NOTHING IN THAT LEAF...


Okay.
The OP just transplanted.
Larger diameter pots means better spacing between plants in SOG.
The look of those yellow low leaves to me is plain and simple under-canopy leaves being used up and dropped. IF the previous pots were small and closely spaced, the canopy would have been quite dense, especially with those large wide bladed leaves. And all that about photosynthesis...
Also a plant that young does not need a pre fertilized soil, adn if the OP intends to use liquid fertilizers, he does not need a fertilized soil ever. That's optional for liquid feeding gardeners.
As for preventing this happening again, there's a whole school of us SOG growers who SWEAR by timed transplants to sidestep soil problems. Heck, my last dirt garden was a promix SOG and I never fucked with the soil, flushing, amendments, nothing- just went pint-quart-gallon-harvest and called it a day. The OP is obviously transplanting on a good schedule so that applies to him. Someone whose residence time is over 6 weeks per pot size is going to need a more complex soil.
Whatever. I ain't trying to fix something that ain't broke, or argue with someone who is sure he is right.

 

[DryAndHigh]

let me just state that I don't know shit.. that said, I think it's possible that everyone is right

Some of the other plants have the striping on same lower leaves that seems to indicate Mg def. The ones I posted pictures of showed signs first and had green veins and the pointed tips before they turned yellow. I'm also thinking that because the had no source of N and the leaves and cotyledons started to yellow before they were fed anything it could also be this. I'm not asserting these things, I'm just asking/thinking while trying to learn. Is it possible for both in a plant this young? keep in mind nothing has been added when they showed perceived signs from both deficiencies..

Now I'm afraid that mexil might be right b/c I hit them with their 2nd feeding after I came home drunk from ... and forgot to dilute the fish. They're looking pretty green (maybe greener than the pics, but if so, not by much). So that's 2 feedings at half a tablespoon when stitch recommended half a teaspoon to start plus the added N in wormcastings in the soil in very young plants.

in any event I really appreciate the help from everyone and I know they're just getting plain water at the very least for 2 waterings. The yellowing has stopped spreading and the slight twisting in the 2nd set of true leaves has seemed to stop, so whether it was the dolomite or the N, I'll never know, but I'm happy for now..

Thanks again everyone and again, like I said, I don't know shit, but any thoughts are welcome from you guys.

random question, roughly how long would it take for my plants to have any effect from the d lime of the new soil? .. I know it's slow acting, but what does that mean?

edit - I don't feel like reading through again, but I think it was stinky who said I needed more complex ferts than I have now. I followed the recommendation in the organics thread and bought neptune's harvest 2-3-1 and 2-4-1 for flowering. I saw in another thread on another forum where you said not to use Fish slop during flowering. The thread was about fish emultion if I remember correctly. In any event, these ferts that I got are fish based.. Are these different from the fish slop/emulsion in that I'll I be able to use them in flowering and also will they be enough to get me through? sorry for being a windbag :/

 

[tree&leaf]

random question, roughly how long would it take for my plants to have any effect from the d lime of the new soil? .. I know it's slow acting, but what does that mean?

I think you need to go away and gain a better understanding of how to grow organically, rather than fussing over specific things. The "organics for beginners" thread is a good place to start.

The function of dolomite lime is twofold: firstly, to act as a ph buffer in raising the acidity of the peat and ensuring that the soil ph does not go over ph 7.0. Secondly, to release small quantities of Calcium and Magnesium into the root zone slowly over a period of time.

There is insufficient quantities of Magnesium in dolomite lime to even get close to supplying the quantities a fast growing Canna plant will require and it will soon run out. Dolomite lime is a soil amendment and is not intended to be the sole source of Magnesium. In other words, it's there to boost the soil bound Magnesium content as Canna uses a lot of Magnesium over its growth cycle.

Unless you fix the underlying cause of your Magnesium deficiency, and it is/was a Magnesium deficiency regardless of what anyone else may say, you will get it again. You need to pre-fertilise your soil mixture along the lines described in the 'organics for beginners' thread with sufficient NPK to sustain healthy growth.

You should not be relying on liquid fertilisers to do the job of pre-fertilised soil, that's effectively growing in a 'soiless mix' and is not organic growing. Organic growing principles allow the plant to take whatever nutrients it requires from the soil as and when it needs them, the plant cannot do that if it's relying on you to feed it via liquid fertiliser. The liquid fertilisers you have are fine, but only for 'topping up' the plants nutrient requirements - it should not be the sole source.

I think it was stinky who said I needed more complex ferts than I have now.

I can't speak for stinky, particularly as I don't agree with what he's said here. The worm casting component of your soil mix should be supplying all the necessary micro and trace elements the plant requires, without having to supplement this with more complex liquid fertilisers. In any case your fish emulsion and seaweed extract nutrients will contain more than enough of these micro and trace elements to top up those contained within the worm castings.

The whole object of organic growing is to use as little liquid nutrients as possible by allowing plants to take what they need from the soil medium. The more you have to feed via liquid nutrients the more risk there is of you getting it wrong and under-feeding or over-feeding etc. The more naturally you allow the plant to grow, the more it will be able to express its fullest genetic potential and the larger and better quality harvest you will get.