How much stretch do clones generally lose vs seeds???

[40AmpstoFreedom]

I had a heighth problem last go around and am working with clones of those plants this time rather than seeds. I know clones lose some vigor but I am wondering generally how much?

Also if you topped many times does that effect the heighth they grow? I've been topping over and over again to keep heighth down as I haven't been able to get them into the mother room yet.

The plants are 20 inches vs last time 15 inches. May have to do some major topping again as they wont be in till friday or so of next week...

 

[ForbiddenFruit]

I think generally clones will have the same stretch patterns as the parents.

maybe someone can elaborate

 

[40AmpstoFreedom]

Yea, I read multiple threads though that clones don't have the same vigor as seedlings. A lot of my plants more than doubled in size so I was really hoping for for 6-10 inches in lost heighth heh.

 

[ForbiddenFruit]

How mature the plant is "Veg" wise may impact the stretch slightly

Veg for 5 days and get minimal stretch veg for 50 days more vigor overall.

But look at your parent strain to determine how much stretch to expect.

From what I understand everything is about timing. If planning to top get all your topping done before flipping the lights to flower.

Topping will affect height, it slows the plants vertical growth while creating a horizontal bushing effect. The first "topping" you do seems to be most important to determine shape.

If topping won't save you then some form of training will have to be used

 

[Guest 18340]

Yea, I read multiple threads though that clones don't have the same vigor as seedlings. A lot of my plants more than doubled in size so I was really hoping for for 6-10 inches in lost heighth heh.

Can you post a link to the threads that say clones lose vigor? I have a w'widow clone (actually, 7 clones) thats a clone of a clone of a clone of a clone of a clone of a clone, ok, you get it. Its going on 3 years now i've been making clones from clones, and no vigor lost whatsoever.

 

[FreezerBoy]

T Haze x Skunk #1.

Left side is Wilma. From seed she vegged (*) two weeks (*) and flowered for 120 days yielding 120 grams of water-cured bud. All under a 250 CMH. Had I not heavily sampled along the way and gone with a jar cure, I'd have hit, or exceeded, the mythical 1G per watt.

On the right is W3 (cloned from Wilma's clone) She was not vegged. Started under a 150 HPS, moved under the CMH about halfway through her grow, she yielded 95 grams.

Because of the differences in veg and lighting I can't blame it all on being a clone but, even in my Rockwool days I could tell that clone roots just aren't as explosive as seed roots. More roots=more bud



Note the undergrowth on W3. DON'T DO THAT! I had reason to believe she was light shy and shaded buds were stickier. I was right about that but, the dense undergrowth lead to bud rot (below, you can actually see some just above and left of the center) and what bud I kept was double, extra airy even by Sativa standards.





....... add .......
(*) Corrected earlier mistake of one month of veg. Veg period was 13 days.

 

[Guest 18340]

Very interesting...I agree the lighting plays a variable but how much can be attributed to that.

 

[FreezerBoy]

I wish I could say. Veg time has to play a part too. I don't believe roots grow as much under 12/12 as they do under 18/6. All I can do is throw out the info I have as honestly as possible. What it means ...?

That said, while there was a production drop, it provided more than I can smoke in the same period. Also, there was none of the anxiety from stretching into the lamp. Wilma took up every inch I had and was a constant battle of bending and tying. W3 was the quiet, well behaved child entertaining herself in the corner. Never gave me a peep of trouble (except for the rot which was my fault) Just like real life, everything's a trade-off. While yield was lower, the grow was easier. For those that grow only for themselves, the trade may be worth it.

 

[40AmpstoFreedom]

Can you post a link to the threads that say clones lose vigor? I have a w'widow clone (actually, 7 clones) thats a clone of a clone of a clone of a clone of a clone of a clone, ok, you get it. Its going on 3 years now i've been making clones from clones, and no vigor lost whatsoever.

This is the most recent one I have read:

http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=99504&highlight=stretch

I have read many others over the years similar to this except it didn't have so much to do with the age of the mother plant, but simply clone. I just reread the clone chapter in Jorge Cervantes book and there was no mention of this. For all I know it may not even be true. I had just read it so much I assumed it was.

Thanks Freezer for taking the time to post all of that.

 

[dapimmel]

I've been growing in soil the past 2 years. Stretch is minimal. I prefer growing from seeds as I only grow 2 plants at a time. Yield is much higher with seeds but I did notice a higher Tric count. I was thining about just using Clones and maxing out my grow room being that the stretch is so low.

 

[Guest 18340]

This is a very interesting topic, one that really needs some exploring.
Pics dont lie, and FreezerBoys' pics are a pretty strong arguement. I wonder how much the actual strain plays a part? Maybe the type of medium used? Or growing system?

 

[40AmpstoFreedom]

Yea, apparently it hasn't been thoroughly discussed; not that I can find anyways. I am running all clones this time so I will definitely be able to judge whether it is factor I really hope my plants don't stretch as much as last time or im in trouble...I am doing major LST topping.I hope I topped enough.

 

[Hydro-Soil]

This is the most recent one I have read:

http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=99504&highlight=stretch

This is all speculation but......

I'll bet you straight up the guy is still using his original lamp. Should've replaced it and he's "lost vigor". Throw a new lamp, maybe even a new ballast if he's run the bulb in poor condition long enough. Vigor will return.

 

[swampdank]

This is all speculation but......

I'll bet you straight up the guy is still using his original lamp. Should've replaced it and he's "lost vigor". Throw a new lamp, maybe even a new ballast if he's run the bulb in poor condition long enough. Vigor will return.

I agree. If you use the same bulb in multiple grows, the loss in vigor will become more apparent in each following grow. I just recently found this out. I run two 1ks in my tent and bought a new bulb for shits and giggles. After installing this bulb in one of the lamps the difference was amazing and sent me running to order another one. My yields had been suffering and I couldn't put my finger on it. I think most folks on icmag have growing pot nailed and are looking for advanced techiques. We cannot neglect the rules we learned in kindergarten. This is also true in all of our scientific expiriments. Makes absolutely sure that all of the factors in an expiriment are equal. Freezer Boy: I didnt catch if you use multiple bulbs, but including bulb age with the pics could make for an even stronger case. Good job on the pics(and grow).

 

[FreezerBoy]

Freezer Boy: I didnt catch if you use multiple bulbs, but including bulb age with the pics could make for an even stronger case. Good job on the pics(and grow).

D'oh! Excellent question. sir. This must be why you get the big bucks.

Shed uses a single 250 CMH. The lamp was brand new for Wilma which used up the first 1,700 hours. W3 started on 3/19 (under a 150 HPS about a year old) and went under the CMH around 5/15 and harvested 8/9 for about another 1000 hours or, a total of 2,700 hours. Rated at 20,000 hours I think it's safe to assume the loss of yield comes from something else.

On another note, my journal reveals Wilma had only two weeks of veg NOT a full month. But, that's still two more weeks than W3 got.

 

[swampdank]

my outside the box thought process coupled with recent expiriences brought the question to my mind. no matter what your answer was going to be...

the answer would make your expiriment that much more accurate. good job bro!

 

[Ran]

I thought the debate about clone vs seed vigor pertained to the growth prior to rooting rather than during flower stretch. As in, how much growth can a seedling get in the time a cutting takes to root.