igethigh23
Member
GLOCK23- On the lactobacillus issue: maybe that's why Indian people add milk to the soil when growing ganja? They use milk for what? what does the milk do to the soil?
hydrogen peroxide?
- Thread starter prolificgrower
- Start date
C
CT Guy
Here's a bit more info. from another email from Dr. Ingham. I didn't post the whole email because there was some personal correspondence as well. This relates more to the scientific credibility of the ARS article that was posted earlier.
Notice that this is an abstract for a meeting presentation. This is not solid scientific research, it was not peer reviewed.
"The problem is that they don't test the set of organisms in the potting material, so they have no idea what was present, or what was impacted by the peroxide.
And, yes, vinegar can well do the same things claimed here, given conditions, environment, and concentration of the vinegar, plant grown, etc."
From: Keep It Simple, Inc.
To: soilfoodweb
Sent: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 10:33 am
Subject: Re: questions about hydrogen peroxide
Thanks Elaine,
Your statements supported my understanding on the subject. I really need to buff up on my chemistry again, I've forgotten everything I learned in high school and college.
Here's an article that supports its use in pathogen control
http://www.ars.usda.gov/research/publications/publications.htm?SEQ_NO_115=207538
From reading the article though, their interpretation of the data seems a bit liberal considering what they claim to have found in their technical results. Wouldn't vinegar work just as well for killing off pathogens?
Thanks for all your help, hope everything is going well with your classes and labs!
Notice that this is an abstract for a meeting presentation. This is not solid scientific research, it was not peer reviewed.
"The problem is that they don't test the set of organisms in the potting material, so they have no idea what was present, or what was impacted by the peroxide.
And, yes, vinegar can well do the same things claimed here, given conditions, environment, and concentration of the vinegar, plant grown, etc."
From: Keep It Simple, Inc.
To: soilfoodweb
Sent: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 10:33 am
Subject: Re: questions about hydrogen peroxide
Thanks Elaine,
Your statements supported my understanding on the subject. I really need to buff up on my chemistry again, I've forgotten everything I learned in high school and college.
Here's an article that supports its use in pathogen control
http://www.ars.usda.gov/research/publications/publications.htm?SEQ_NO_115=207538
From reading the article though, their interpretation of the data seems a bit liberal considering what they claim to have found in their technical results. Wouldn't vinegar work just as well for killing off pathogens?
Thanks for all your help, hope everything is going well with your classes and labs!
Hello all,
CT, while you are at it, send her links to the other studies of crop irrigation using H2O2.
I think everybody is overreacting to this notion that H2O2 will kill all soil microbes in all cases using VERY Dilute concentrations. For crying out loud people, I am not suggesting flushing with 35% H2O2.
Ask the good Doctor if there is room for study.
minds_I
CT, while you are at it, send her links to the other studies of crop irrigation using H2O2.
I think everybody is overreacting to this notion that H2O2 will kill all soil microbes in all cases using VERY Dilute concentrations. For crying out loud people, I am not suggesting flushing with 35% H2O2.
Ask the good Doctor if there is room for study.
minds_I
And certainly organic organisms and membranes can be destroyed by a heavy oxygenate such as H2o2, but it is all relevant to the dilution.
I think the red flags should go up when we hear that h2o2 will destroy organic organisms on contact. If this is the case, would not all organisms that it contacts be destroyed or attacked? I only see damage occurring (when used in prescribed doses) to the dead roots, while the live roots remain healthy and vibrant. Why does this fluid not attack the healthy roots? Simple...its the dosage that is pertinent.
You organic gurus...tell me what happens to a grow that is sterile? How do plants react to sterile mediums like steam cleaned soil or whatnot...or maybe coco?
Because, from what I am hearing, any addition of H2o2 is sterilizing the soil and the plants should react as such.
And also, do you think that the concentrations of H2o2 that we are using (1-4oz per gal) is killing all of the aerobic bacteria, or maybe just some of it? And is it a bad thing for some of the beneficial bacteria not to survive?
I think the red flags should go up when we hear that h2o2 will destroy organic organisms on contact. If this is the case, would not all organisms that it contacts be destroyed or attacked? I only see damage occurring (when used in prescribed doses) to the dead roots, while the live roots remain healthy and vibrant. Why does this fluid not attack the healthy roots? Simple...its the dosage that is pertinent.
You organic gurus...tell me what happens to a grow that is sterile? How do plants react to sterile mediums like steam cleaned soil or whatnot...or maybe coco?
Because, from what I am hearing, any addition of H2o2 is sterilizing the soil and the plants should react as such.
And also, do you think that the concentrations of H2o2 that we are using (1-4oz per gal) is killing all of the aerobic bacteria, or maybe just some of it? And is it a bad thing for some of the beneficial bacteria not to survive?
C
CT Guy
minds_I said:
What studies? Send me a link to what you're referring to.
Thanks!
Hello all,
Here you go CT.
http://acquire.cqu.edu.au:8080/vital/access/manager/Repository/cqu:1465
Here is another, I just skimmed
http://www.cropscience.org.au/icsc2004/poster/3/6/2/665_bhattarrai.htm
minds_I
Perhaps the good doctor may not have the final word.
Here you go CT.
http://acquire.cqu.edu.au:8080/vital/access/manager/Repository/cqu:1465
Here is another, I just skimmed
http://www.cropscience.org.au/icsc2004/poster/3/6/2/665_bhattarrai.htm
minds_I
Perhaps the good doctor may not have the final word.
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C
CT Guy
hoosierdaddy said:
You raise a couple of different points in my opinion. Before I address them, I want to make it clear that I'm not stating that you're wrong on any of this, I'm just trying to gain some more insight on this because I feel fairly ignorant on this type of application of hydrogen peroxide.
Here's the two issues I see in your post:
1. I understand the chemistry argument relative to dilution (I made a friend of mine at Fred Hutch Cancer Research center explain it to me, since I've forgotten much of my chemistry since college). The H2O2 molecule does break down to oxygen, which would have aerobic benefit to the soil. You will get some organisms loss. The issue is whether or not the benefits of increased O2 in the soil or rhizosphere OUTWEIGH the loss of organisms (I'm talking about a healthy system hear, where there is a good abundance of beneficial aerobic microbes). My friend is convinced that you are correct, that the water (and low concentrations) would virtually eliminate the microbial loss, making H2O2 a good addition to your gardening practice. I don't claim to have an answer to this, but I would like to see some actual DATA, or peer reviewed studies that support these claims. This is the same problem we've had in the compost tea industry in gaining credibility, though we've slowly been able to produce more and more scientific literature over the past decade to where it's harder to refute it's proven benefits.
2. In a "sterile" system, you're essentially playing God to the plant. All plants need 3 things; water, sun, and food (nutrients). With organics, the biology is what cycles and provides the nutrients for the plant. With sterile growing mediums, YOU are in charge of that process.
3. Maybe I'm missing something (in fact I know I must be), but from what I understand, H2O2 DOES kill any cellular membrane it comes in contact with. Doesn't it release O2 through this process? When I read your article link it stated that food grade H202 is highly toxic and great care needed to be exercised when handling. So if we're talking strictly about the molecule itself (all dilutions with H20 aside), then yes, I would say that statement is correct. At the dilution levels you're recommending, maybe the effects are inconsequential. My point is, we really don't know what's causing your plants to grow. Is it the H202 or something else in your soil or growing practices? Have you used controls?
Thanks guys, I'm enjoying this thread. It's forced me to learn a bit more about a subject I wasn't even aware of!
~Tad
Hello all,
Heres something of interest...
http://www.srcosmos.gr/srcosmos/showpub.aspx?aa=6719
minds_I
Heres something of interest...
http://www.srcosmos.gr/srcosmos/showpub.aspx?aa=6719
minds_I
C
CT Guy
minds_I said:
Thanks for the links, I passed the info. on in an email and read through the articles myself. These were much better studies than the links originally posted. There seems to be a noticeable increase in fertility over the control. I am curious to hear back from Elaine though.
Personally, I consider her an expert and what she's done for the organic industry is nothing short of incredible. I don't take what she says at face value, but I do respect her opinion. In fact, I went against her recommendations when getting a microscope based on my own research and advice from "microbeman." Let's just consider her an "expert opinion" as far as this thread is concerned and you can weigh that against the other articles and links that support the use of H202.
I'm perfectly happy sitting on the fence on this one until I've learned more!
No, unfortunately, CT I have never ran controls with anything I have done in this area.
It has been ages since I conducted a proper experiment of any sort, but I will do my best to validate anything I do in the future with some control models.
I'm for sure no microbiologist, nor do I play one on TV...but my limited understanding of the common "microherd" if you will, is that the health of the beneficials is a cyclic thing, and the demise of the bacteria is necessary to the integrity of the system.
If that is the case, maybe the amount of additional bacteria that are destroyed are not taking things past the threshold of what the system can maintain? And perhaps it's at this point that the benefits of the additional free radical oxygen molecule can be seen by increasing the DO and maybe acting as a chelating agent and increasing nutrient uptake?
It has been ages since I conducted a proper experiment of any sort, but I will do my best to validate anything I do in the future with some control models.
I'm for sure no microbiologist, nor do I play one on TV...but my limited understanding of the common "microherd" if you will, is that the health of the beneficials is a cyclic thing, and the demise of the bacteria is necessary to the integrity of the system.
If that is the case, maybe the amount of additional bacteria that are destroyed are not taking things past the threshold of what the system can maintain? And perhaps it's at this point that the benefits of the additional free radical oxygen molecule can be seen by increasing the DO and maybe acting as a chelating agent and increasing nutrient uptake?
Hello all,
here is somemore info....this is with regard to injecting air...soil farts. I have read on OG about this method, heres a paper that discribes just such a system.
http://www.srcosmos.gr/srcosmos/showpub.aspx?aa=8401
They also mention the use of H2O2 and reffers to other article already posted I believe.
minds_I
EDIT: more interseting information:
http://www.find-health-articles.com...-peroxide-dynamics-treatment-contaminated.htm
minds_I
here is somemore info....this is with regard to injecting air...soil farts. I have read on OG about this method, heres a paper that discribes just such a system.
http://www.srcosmos.gr/srcosmos/showpub.aspx?aa=8401
They also mention the use of H2O2 and reffers to other article already posted I believe.
minds_I
EDIT: more interseting information:
http://www.find-health-articles.com...-peroxide-dynamics-treatment-contaminated.htm
minds_I
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Hello all,
I emailed David Midmore, co-author of the paper:
http://acquire.cqu.edu.au:8080/vital/access/manager/Repository/cqu:1465
This what I wrote and his reply.
"Good day,
I would like to pose a question to you regarding the use of H2O2 use and the benificial microbes in the soil.
My question is this: Does the use of dilute H2O2 as a soil drench significantly impact the soil biology in negitive way while increasing the O2 level?
I am sure there is microbe mortality do to the oxidation properties of H2O2 but with the use of compost/guano teas to repopulate the flora and with low concentrations I am wondering if there is a benificial optimum between the use of the two solutions.
Thank you for your time."
His reply was this:
"Thanks for the question.
We haven’t studied this in detail, only simply to show that generalist microbes are not affected, in terms of measurable numbers.
How do your interests relate to the use of H2O2?
Sincerely,
David J. Midmore
Director - Centre for Plant and Water Science,
Central Queensland University,
Rockhampton, Qld 4702, Australia"
It would seem more speicific work needs to done in this area. Remember, most of the papers dealt with adverse soil conditions.
B1, As for a side by side teat, really most side by sides I have read about here are really just anocdotal due to the wide range of conditions, lack of actual data and poor or missing controls.
Still culminations of everybodies grow experience should result in some conclusions.
I myself have a spare plant htat I have been "experiementing with" using h2o2. At this point its been just 5 days and it seems to have made some progress relative to its siblings.
minds_I
I emailed David Midmore, co-author of the paper:
http://acquire.cqu.edu.au:8080/vital/access/manager/Repository/cqu:1465
This what I wrote and his reply.
"Good day,
I would like to pose a question to you regarding the use of H2O2 use and the benificial microbes in the soil.
My question is this: Does the use of dilute H2O2 as a soil drench significantly impact the soil biology in negitive way while increasing the O2 level?
I am sure there is microbe mortality do to the oxidation properties of H2O2 but with the use of compost/guano teas to repopulate the flora and with low concentrations I am wondering if there is a benificial optimum between the use of the two solutions.
Thank you for your time."
His reply was this:
"Thanks for the question.
We haven’t studied this in detail, only simply to show that generalist microbes are not affected, in terms of measurable numbers.
How do your interests relate to the use of H2O2?
Sincerely,
David J. Midmore
Director - Centre for Plant and Water Science,
Central Queensland University,
Rockhampton, Qld 4702, Australia"
It would seem more speicific work needs to done in this area. Remember, most of the papers dealt with adverse soil conditions.
B1, As for a side by side teat, really most side by sides I have read about here are really just anocdotal due to the wide range of conditions, lack of actual data and poor or missing controls.
Still culminations of everybodies grow experience should result in some conclusions.
I myself have a spare plant htat I have been "experiementing with" using h2o2. At this point its been just 5 days and it seems to have made some progress relative to its siblings.
minds_I
C
CT Guy
The first paper, while interesting, does not explain why a benefit was seen.
Was it really the hydrogen peroxide?
I can show you many pubs where these same observations were made between field one and field two. If we can't explain WHY the treatment improves plant growth, how can we predict whether the next trial will be successful? Whatever actually happened to make the improvement ........ can you replicate that change again, if you don't know what it was that made the difference?
Further, hydrogen peroxide reacts VERY quickly when added to anything. About 10 seconds after the H2O2 is added to the water, it has reacted. How long does that little bit of "extra" oxygen really hang around? Mostly, you can't even measure the increase in O2.
Is it really the fact that a bunch of organisms were killed that is the real difference? Which organisms, and how many, need to die in order to see these results again?
So, what is the real cause of the effect? How much H2O2 before the effect becomes a negative one?
So, I don't disbelieve, but much more testing needs to be done before I'm going to start recommending addition of H2O2.
Elaine
Was it really the hydrogen peroxide?
I can show you many pubs where these same observations were made between field one and field two. If we can't explain WHY the treatment improves plant growth, how can we predict whether the next trial will be successful? Whatever actually happened to make the improvement ........ can you replicate that change again, if you don't know what it was that made the difference?
Further, hydrogen peroxide reacts VERY quickly when added to anything. About 10 seconds after the H2O2 is added to the water, it has reacted. How long does that little bit of "extra" oxygen really hang around? Mostly, you can't even measure the increase in O2.
Is it really the fact that a bunch of organisms were killed that is the real difference? Which organisms, and how many, need to die in order to see these results again?
So, what is the real cause of the effect? How much H2O2 before the effect becomes a negative one?
So, I don't disbelieve, but much more testing needs to be done before I'm going to start recommending addition of H2O2.
Elaine
It's my understanding that the h2o2 will remain effective for 3-5 days after exposure.
There may well be an immediate reaction, but I don't think you are seeing the whole volume of solution react, but rather the anaerobic bacterium that was present got reacted upon on contact. I'm sure that fizzle you witness is not the end all of the reaction process.
And I have not measured it myself, but my understanding is that DO is greatly increased for the period of time the solution remains active.
Are you saying that you have tried, and cannot see any measurable increase in DO after introducing h2o2?
*Am I replying to CT Guy or the Dr?
I suggest try using the quote button for things not authored by yourself.
There may well be an immediate reaction, but I don't think you are seeing the whole volume of solution react, but rather the anaerobic bacterium that was present got reacted upon on contact. I'm sure that fizzle you witness is not the end all of the reaction process.
And I have not measured it myself, but my understanding is that DO is greatly increased for the period of time the solution remains active.
Are you saying that you have tried, and cannot see any measurable increase in DO after introducing h2o2?
*Am I replying to CT Guy or the Dr?
I suggest try using the quote button for things not authored by yourself.
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Hello all,
CT, thanks for your efforts in communicating with the Dr. Ingham.
I am glad to see she is open to the suggestion of testing...as that would be the path to knownledge.
Hoosier, H2O2 will complete dismutate in the presence of sufficient amount of reactant...at the doses (7.5cc/l of 3%) I am proposing the number of h2o2 molecules are vastly outnumbered by reactant molecules.
As to the amount of O2 released in 3% is 10 times the volume...e.g 1cc of 3% h2o2 releases 10cc of o2. wiki info.
minds_I
Addendum:
After futher study, oxygenation of the soil has proven benifits. It seems that most air injection studies that I have read so far use 12% air/fert.solution ratio. So check my math here:
12% of air per liter would be 120cc or 120ml.
Air is 79% nitorgen, 20% oxygen and 1% other gases.
So, the amount per liter of injectant is acuallty:
0.20 x 0.120 l = 0.024 l O2
If 3% H2O2 releases 10 times the volume of H2O2 then tha amount of 3% H2O2 needed per liter of solution is:
0.024 l O2 / 10 l O2 / 1 l H2O2 = 0.0024 l H2O2 = 2.4cc H2O2
Not very much at all really.
So seeing that I have the time and inclination, I poured some gauna/ewc/molasses tea and added kelp as usual and added 2.4 cc H2O2 to the solution and guess what, it did not immedaitely foam up telling me that the reaction is slow...this is a good this as it will allow time to apply to the soil.
I have not done this yet as I have another little H2O2 experiement I am playing with at the moment and I want to see what happens with this one.
I am reasonably sure that from the documenation I have been reading on air injection and crop yields its a good bet this could be benificial in the right proportions and proper application.
Also the issue of SDI delivery brings into question the validity of the "soil fart" method.
minds_I
CT, thanks for your efforts in communicating with the Dr. Ingham.
I am glad to see she is open to the suggestion of testing...as that would be the path to knownledge.
Hoosier, H2O2 will complete dismutate in the presence of sufficient amount of reactant...at the doses (7.5cc/l of 3%) I am proposing the number of h2o2 molecules are vastly outnumbered by reactant molecules.
As to the amount of O2 released in 3% is 10 times the volume...e.g 1cc of 3% h2o2 releases 10cc of o2. wiki info.
minds_I
Addendum:
After futher study, oxygenation of the soil has proven benifits. It seems that most air injection studies that I have read so far use 12% air/fert.solution ratio. So check my math here:
12% of air per liter would be 120cc or 120ml.
Air is 79% nitorgen, 20% oxygen and 1% other gases.
So, the amount per liter of injectant is acuallty:
0.20 x 0.120 l = 0.024 l O2
If 3% H2O2 releases 10 times the volume of H2O2 then tha amount of 3% H2O2 needed per liter of solution is:
0.024 l O2 / 10 l O2 / 1 l H2O2 = 0.0024 l H2O2 = 2.4cc H2O2
Not very much at all really.
So seeing that I have the time and inclination, I poured some gauna/ewc/molasses tea and added kelp as usual and added 2.4 cc H2O2 to the solution and guess what, it did not immedaitely foam up telling me that the reaction is slow...this is a good this as it will allow time to apply to the soil.
I have not done this yet as I have another little H2O2 experiement I am playing with at the moment and I want to see what happens with this one.
I am reasonably sure that from the documenation I have been reading on air injection and crop yields its a good bet this could be benificial in the right proportions and proper application.
Also the issue of SDI delivery brings into question the validity of the "soil fart" method.
minds_I
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minds_I said:
Hello all,
Have been looking of "oxygation" articles mainly to find the quanitative data...without purchasing the complete articles themselves.
In this article they give a formula for h2o2 to add...in this case the study was done with .5ccl of 50% H2O2 per liter of irrigation water.
Using 3%, to maintain the concentration levels:
(.5cc) * 50% solution equals ( Xcc) * 3%
or 8.33cc of (3%) H2O2.
This is 350% more H2O2 then suggested.
Talk amoungst yourselves...
minds_I
http://www.apal.org.au/assets/content/3352/Feb08.pdf
EDIT"
Here is a more in-depth look at oxygation
http://www.mazzei.net/publications/AirJectionIrrigation/OxygationUnlocksYieldPotential-Aus.pdf
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If introducing oxygen is your only goal with the H2o2, then perhaps the concentration levels you are showing would be proper. Especially since a study was done to come up with the figures.
But...what if you are using it also as a aerobic inhibitor/exterminator? If additional work is needed, past that of simply providing additional DO, then it makes sense to me that the concentration should be higher. 350% higher? Don't know...but, I doknow a few things that I found out like you did. For one, you could have asked me about how the stuff reacts when put in contact with the medium. I would have told you that there is no noticible bubble and fizz happening, that we usually associate with H2o2 reactions.
I also first hand have seen that there is no apparent detriment by adding 1-4ozper gal with each feed. Of course a controlled side-by-s9de would be the only way to actually confirm this..but my anecdotal evidence so far keeps me using the stuff at the levels discussed.
But...what if you are using it also as a aerobic inhibitor/exterminator? If additional work is needed, past that of simply providing additional DO, then it makes sense to me that the concentration should be higher. 350% higher? Don't know...but, I doknow a few things that I found out like you did. For one, you could have asked me about how the stuff reacts when put in contact with the medium. I would have told you that there is no noticible bubble and fizz happening, that we usually associate with H2o2 reactions.
I also first hand have seen that there is no apparent detriment by adding 1-4ozper gal with each feed. Of course a controlled side-by-s9de would be the only way to actually confirm this..but my anecdotal evidence so far keeps me using the stuff at the levels discussed.
dirkdaddy
Member
I am not going to hop into this detailed discussion too much but I'll throw my experience in. I watered my plants in LC's mix with dry recipe #1 with a diluted mix of h2o2 (3% store brand h202, mixed 4 ounces to 32 ounces of de chlorinated water). I watered two plants with it to get rid of a fungus gnat problem.
results: fungus gnats went away, plants didn't show any adverse effects. I continued watering with my normal liquid karma/molasses mix after. so in my experience the diluted h202 didn't seem to have any effect on my plants. if it effected the good microbes if was only temporary and they have returned.
results: fungus gnats went away, plants didn't show any adverse effects. I continued watering with my normal liquid karma/molasses mix after. so in my experience the diluted h202 didn't seem to have any effect on my plants. if it effected the good microbes if was only temporary and they have returned.
