Rusty Clones

[Pig-Pen]

I've been having a problem that I've yet to be able to pinpoint or remedy.

Most of the clones I take, by the time they have rooted, the tips seem to be burned and it escalates to where the bottom couple leaves die off because the rusty burn eats them up. It's not like any usual deficiency or excess that I've ever had to deal with.

Once they start new growth, they're fine.

Sometimes I root in straight vermiculite, peat pucks, or soil/vermiculite mix. Always the same.

I generally don't mist clones, just into a container for a day or two, then the top comes off the container, after a few more days they're good to go "out in the open". I use plain tap water usually, though sometimes with a little Maxi-crop. Root-tech gel, or Root-tone powder, or nothing...all the same. Tap water always sits out overnight before use.

Here's the thing. All my plants are in near perfect health. Even seedlings. I plant seeds directly in soil and the seedlings grow in straight soil with zero issue, so I know there are no soil or nutrient problems. All plants are watered with the same water.

I'm at a loss with this one, only thing I can figure is maybe it has to do with local water quality and the clones are more susceptible....but then you would think seedling would be affected as well.

I'm going to try neem-dunking fresh cuts and see how that goes, but I really want to figure out what's going on. I've never had this issue and it's starting to really piss me off. My cuts all root and reasonably fast, and like I said, once they get over this thing, they're good to go.


But WTF?

Sorry no pics...no cam anymore.

 

[CT Guy]

I would suggest adding seaweed as a foliar application, it's been shown to help with disease and stress during transplantation.

 

[Pig-Pen]

PICS

PICS

Here's one of the worst ones, it's been rooted for days, maybe a week now...



This one is starting new growth, and as you can see the new growth is healthy...



These are rooting, you can see where the rust or whatever is starting on the tips, though I trimmed the tips before the pics ....




And for reference, a couple F13 seedlings....same amended soil, same water, same everything....but the problem is obviously starting sometime between them being cut and them rooting....


They're all even in the same cab....






Thought, ideas or suggestions?

I went ahead and gave everything you see a neem dunk last night. The seedlings didn't need it, but just a preventative measure....

 

[Pig-Pen]

The donors in this case....same soil, same water....




Same soil, same water....





There's some burned tips but that's from the lights.

 

[MHHSP]

looks like they may need more oxygen...
also don't let the soil stay to wet, that also cuts out O2.

and remember clones are different than seedlings in many ways.

 

[overmind1632]

I have the same problem Pig-Pen, my mother plant as well as my other plants use same soil and water etc.... just my clones have rusty leaves as they root and when they are fully rooted and start to grow, they are fine, I've also been unable to fix this problem so I would love to find out what the answer to fixing this is

 

[Skipload]

They may be over watered. Until you figure it out clone like crazy. Experiment with the extras.

 

[DrBudGreengenes]

They look just a lil' upset....with their PH...are you adjusting PH? and if so with what?

Some kinds of MJ just don't care for Peat based substrate to root...they will still root...but will show ya their dis-pleasure at the same time

Also try Cloning in a a mix of 50/50 Perlite /Vermiculite
Straight Perlite also works well for cloning
How many holes are in the bottom of your containers?
and since you are getting Happy Healthy Clones in the end....go with it

Good Luck Bro....Happy Growing

 

[overmind1632]

My guess was a pH issue also but I dont have a pH meter

 

[Pig-Pen]

Here's one of the rooting ones, it has gotten this much worse just overnight..


I don't pH, I let the soil regulate everything at which it does a fine job.

I did find an old Hanna pH meter from years ago. Appears to still work but any cali fluids are long gone, so it's pretty useless.

I've been using peat pucks for a long time now, but once this all started happening, I started using straight vermiculite. Same thing. So I thought it must a be a water thing. So I tried rooting some in straight soil (to regulate pH). Same thing.

Next step is distilled water and verm. Totally clean, neutral and inert, see what happens then.

Draining containers....the seedling are in non-draining. The rooted clones have a couple or three holes in the bottom. I don't water till run-off. I've been at this for about 10 years now, organic soil most of them, so I've got a good grip on moisture control. I've been flowering in non-draining containers for years, no issues there.

Whatever is going on, it's doing so before they're far enough along to be transplanted, so I'm confident it's not a soil or over-watering thing.

They don't all make it. I get nearly 100% rooting, but some of them are too far gone by the time they are rooted that I just have to toss 'em.

I can't find any perlite that doesn't have MG in it anymore. I know it's not much and would likely have little effect, but it would still be tainted in my mind. Maybe silly, but there's better vibes between the girls and me when I know everything is 100%. But I may try it with distilled water anyway, just to see what happens.

In 10 years I've never had a situation where every single cutting gets all fucked up like this. I remember the days when they all stayed green and healthy the entire ride, so I'm getting pretty fucked-off with this whole thing.

 

[Pig-Pen]

Too much light...

Too much light...

I think I may have realized the problem. We'll see.

I believe that I've been simply exposing fresh cuts to too much light where they have been trying to continue to grow. Having no roots their only food source are the leaves, hence the leaves becomes quickly depleted and die off.

In the past, when I was working with much larger numbers of clones and veggin with a 400w HPS, I had a totally separate cloning cab with low wattage tube fluoros that were a foot or so away from the cuts.

Now that I've been rooting cuttings in a small, cramped veg cab, I think they're simply too close to the CFL's.

This is the only reasonable conclusion I've come to, and I'm surprised I hadn't thought of it 'till now. The simplest things are often overlooked.

 

[overmind1632]

I clone like 1.5-2ft away from 40 watts of CFL but I still have that problem

should I lower it to 20 watts?

 

[Pig-Pen]

I clone like 1.5-2ft away from 40 watts of CFL but I still have that problem

should I lower it to 20 watts?

I would think that would be plenty far away, but then I didn't think the CFL's in my vag cab would be too much either. I used to use only use 20 watts, IIRC, and those were tubes so that little bit of light was also drastically more diffused than a comparably powered CFL.

Of course, I'm not yet certain that this is the problem, time will tell, but I'm quite confident that it is. In this same cab, this was less a problem when I was running slightly smaller CFL's. I have also pulled the timer to run it 24 hrs instead of 18 and the problem escalated much more quickly. Deduction leads to light intensity being the culprit.

You can lower the wattage or simply shield your cuts. You can place a piece of silk screen or something over their container, for instance. Anything to cut down on the intensity. But for a dedicated clone chamber, it's probably best to just cut the wattage; less heat and less wasted energy.

 

[Suby]

Of course, I'm not yet certain that this is the problem, time will tell, but I'm quite confident that it is. In this same cab, this was less a problem when I was running slightly smaller CFL's. I have also pulled the timer to run it 24 hrs instead of 18 and the problem escalated much more quickly. Deduction leads to light intensity being the culprit.

Bingo.

I always try to use a short light cycle when cloning, 16-18 hours under fluros and start them far because they don't need the light.
I have been using straight coco for cloning (not for veg or flowering though), it is amazing for clones and ph neutral (not that it matters IMO).
I have been cloning in plastic popsicle making moulds with a hole drilled in the bottom and it works VERY well.
Keep them domed longer than just 2 days, give them at least 5 days, that's what I do anyway, I use a clear Rubbermaid tub covered with press and seal type plastic wrap.
Second I noticed your mother plant is very green whhich is great and healthy for early flowering but no so good for cuts.
That's why I believe in using a mother plant, I keep her a little more hungry N wise and I find it helps.

Every little thing counts with clones, root zone temps are allso important but I don't feel this is the case here.

Keep me posted.

Sub's

 

[Pig-Pen]

Well, that seems to have cleared it up. One that I took a few days ago is still green, perky and is now well callused.

The two pictured above in peat pellets seemed to have recovered, though the damage still exists.

I solved the problem by putting them in white containers rather than clear ones. For instance, I have one in a yogurt tub, with the lid on it. That drastically, actually completely, cuts the intensity while providing enough luminescence to encourage rooting but not enough for photosynthesis.

So there ya go.

Mites are still gone, too.

I win 2x.

 

[Pig-Pen]

Bingo.

I always try to use a short light cycle when cloning, 16-18 hours under fluros and start them far because they don't need the light.
I have been using straight coco for cloning (not for veg or flowering though), it is amazing for clones and ph neutral (not that it matters IMO).
I have been cloning in plastic popsicle making moulds with a hole drilled in the bottom and it works VERY well.
Keep them domed longer than just 2 days, give them at least 5 days, that's what I do anyway, I use a clear Rubbermaid tub covered with press and seal type plastic wrap.
Second I noticed your mother plant is very green whhich is great and healthy for early flowering but no so good for cuts.
That's why I believe in using a mother plant, I keep her a little more hungry N wise and I find it helps.

Every little thing counts with clones, root zone temps are allso important but I don't feel this is the case here.

Keep me posted.

Sub's

YO. I 've looked for popsicle molds for months now and can't find any, anywhere. Pretty ridiculous. I though they would have been easier to find, especially during the summer. Shaved ice machines everywhere, however.

My usual practice is to keep mothers and keep them relatively underfed. However I'm in the process of elimination as far as strains go, and the donors pictured were mothers, but are now, in fact flowering so they're well fed ATM.

I think using yogurt tubs will take care of the problem as it is.

In this tiny cab, I just can't get fresh cuts far enough away from the lights. Gawd I miss the old days.....

I do have a bit of a "cold floor" issue with this particular cab and where its regularly parked, but it usually sits on top of a seedling mat which helps alot, but it could probably stand to be a couple degrees warmer at the root zone. But hell, it's never perfect, is it?

Oh, I threw my timer back on there too. I've never liked 24hr, I was just trying it to see how the cuttings reacted.

Word.

 

[Suby]

Well the popsicle and coco trick I nicked from another forum/member but can't remember which lol.
I've had a few growers have problems under 24hrs light cycles, some growers say that roots developp during the dark cycle, I'm not sure I agree but this sort of works into that theoty.
I think it has more to do with keeping the cut in stasis while rooting and calus develops, more light forces more photosynthesis needing more food which is drawn from the leaves for lack of a root system.
This is also a theory, my double blind experiement days are over
CDlones are tougher than most think, I've had clones take 20+ days to root and look like shit and then bounce back strong, some phenos are worth fighting for lol.

 

[jaykush]

i use Popsicle tray with 20 spots, 1 inch wide at the top and 3/4 at the bottom. there round. i use compost and sand for my rooting medium, and sometimes honey for the rooting gel. they work great i got mine at a second hand store for cheap something like 50 cents each, i got like 5. the roots fill them up fast so it holds all the medium real easy and for great transplants to beer cups or 1 gallon.

 

[OG savatage]

10k said in 2001 on Overgrow:

"Trim the leaf blades...

Cutting the blades in half this way cut moisture loss in half. This leaf trimming will also slow down premature yellowing caused by too much lighting."

Glad I saved the article (thanks Google cache) as it's made me look like a pro at cloning. The ol' Cheapo Aero-Cloner article. No pics but hey, all the instructions are there...