Multi-flow/Ebb&Grow Users: TIPS&TRICKS

[eLiguL]

I don't think that 10" netpots will work very well in this situation. Many/most of your roots will be hanging below the netpot without water and nothing (hydroton/RW/Lava Rock) to keep the roots moist in between waterings. The roots will dry out and dye off pretty fast if they are not kept moist. On the flip side...they'll quickly die if they are submerged for to long without oxygen (I'm sure you already know this).

Source: SeeMoreBuds Vol:3 [2nd to last segment]

I think those are 3gal buckets with 10in netpots. I can verify that the system used here is a multi-flow/ebb&grow controller bucket.

they'll quickly die if they are submerged for to long without oxygen (I'm sure you already know this).

In every planter bucket should be a pool of water about 1in high or so correct?

If im not mistaken, the agitation from flooding and draining should create enough dissolved oxygen in the water for the girls to sit before flooding again?

 

[Haps]

Yes, roots hanging is no problem if you flood often enough. I use five inch net pots, and I do have to stake or cage for support but it works fine. I average a bit under 100 per bucket, but pretty close, and I grow big sativa bitches on the sides and indicas in the center row to form a natural bowl shaped grow. I veg for ten days, bloom for ten weeks and pull a bit more one number per K. This is the shit man.
H

 

[OgreSeeker]

Yeah I forgot that most people use smaller 3 gallon buckets so those 10" pots would *probably* be ok. And yes there is usually 1" to 2" of standing water in the typical E&F bucket that the roots are submerged in but that's no problem. There's enough 02 to keep those roots from drowning until the next flood.

Any idea of how low in the 3 gal buckets those 10" pots go. How many inches is there between the netpot and the bottom of the bucket?

 

[RedXIII]

Red do you use CO2 at all?

No CO2, just passive intake and exhaust...

I also have about 1-2" of water in the bottom of my buckets but it doesen't seem to be a problem cause the girls love the multi-flow!


Anybody ever use another medium besides hydroton in these things?

 

[OgreSeeker]

Lava Rock works great and stabilizes tree trunks a lil better than hydroton.

 

[eLiguL]

Any idea of how low in the 3 gal buckets those 10" pots go. How many inches is there between the netpot and the bottom of the bucket?

My guess would be about 10-12in.

Lava Rock works great and stabilizes tree trunks a lil better than hydroton.

Doesnt seem like anyone else has tried using pure perlite except for 00420 and he swears by it. He says since switching he doesnt have to mess with his PH as much. My only concern with using perlite as a medium would be clogging.

Ive asked RedXIII for some general details about his grow and hopefully you fella's (Orgeseeker, Haps and laidbackgreen) wouldnt mind sharing as well.

RedXIII Specs:
System: 6 site Multi-flow from Greentrees
Space: 4.5Lx3.5W ft
Light: 600w on a mover
Height flowered: 14in
Height finished: 3ft
Buckets: 6 3gal bucket in bucket
Medium: Hydroton
Watering: Every 4hrs even when lights are off
Avg yield: 89g/bucket or 19oz/532g total
Rez size: 25gal
Rez change: 2 weeks, 1 flush flood before nutes
Rez temp: 66-68F/18-20C
Rez aerated: Y
Style: Bushes with trellis
Strain: Apollo Mist and Double Strawberry Diesel
A/C: N
Dehumi: N
CO2: N

Overall, it seems that RedXIII has gone with the bare minimums and has good returns. I would have to say for the amount of electricity he uses his system is efficient.

---for easy cut&paste---
?????? Specs:
System:
Space:
Light:
Height flowered:
Height finished:
Buckets:
Medium:
Watering:
Avg yield:
Rez size:
Rez change:
Rez temp:
Rez aerated:
Style:
Strain:
A/C:
Dehumi:
CO2:

 

[eLiguL]

Am I seeing things or did you attach an aquarium pump to each bucket??

 

[OgreSeeker]

LOL...looks like a pump for each and every bucket. That's what I use to do until I got the larger 80w units from GH (when I use to grow DWC). Can you imagine what his power strip looks like!

BTW Haps...you left rep that says "wrong". What's wrong with my above statement? What your doing with 5" netpots WILL WORK but you know as well as I do that it's NOT OPTIMAL to have your roots sitting dry for 3 to 4 hours (without a buffer).
Sounds like what you have is a DWC/E&F bucket hybrid...not a true multi-flow.
Also, why did you add air pumps to each bucket? In a multi-flow system there is no need to attach air pumps...that's a dwc thing (which is why I called your system a DWC/MF. I can see adding them if you were doing straight up DWC but for E&F??


Anyway eligul,
10" netpots will probably fill most of the empty room in your bucket when installed. You'll still need to fill it with some sort of medium. Why not just skip the netpots all together (cut costs) and just use hydroton to fill the bucket.
-Maybe the bucket in bucket method is more expensive in your situation.-

Now if someone plans on using 5" netcups in a multi-flow then they need to know that most of the roots will be growing out of the netcup and down into the bucket. Well this will work fine until something happens (power outage, pump goes bad etc). Then you begin to see the problem. The roots that are dangling will be okay for a while but will soon dry out. If your using a bucket full of medium or a 10" netpot filled with medium then you have a buffer. Your roots will be kept moist for a long period of time because your medium retains so much water. This buffer gives you plenty of time to fix whatever is wrong without the worry of your girls suffering.
Hope this helps.

 

[eLiguL]

Anyway eligul,
10" netpots will probably fill most of the empty room in your bucket when installed. You'll still need to fill it with some sort of medium. Why not just skip the netpots all together (cut costs) and just use hydroton to fill the bucket.
-Maybe the bucket in bucket method is more expensive in your situation.-

My purpose for using a smaller container is the ability to use less hydroton. From my research I noticed that there is one thing that all Multi-Flow/Ebb&Grow users agree on and thats cleaning hydroton is PITA.

The suggested amount for a six site 3gal bucket in bucket system is 50L of hydroton(50lbs). Thats a lot of rocks to clean which is what im trying to avoid.

I think my first time around I will use 1 bucket with a netpot lid just to see how it all works out.

 

[Ripcord]

Considering that you only have to clean the clay once per grow, it's really the only actual work involved, and well worth it. I use 9 buckets under a digital 600 and consistently get 1 to 1.4 grm per watt with a 2 week veg on my clones. If a little bit of work scares you, you may want to look into a different system. I absolutely love mine. For flower I use.

AN Bud Blood
AN Sensibloom A&B
AN Overdrive

I flood 4 times a day. 3 times during lights on, then once in the middle of the dark cycle. I also marked the inside of my 55 gal rez at the 30 gal mark, because I like to change out weekly.

 

[eLiguL]

Hey Ripcord,

I use 9 buckets under a digital 600 and consistently get 1 to 1.4 grm per watt with a 2 week veg on my clones. For flower I use.

AN Bud Blood
AN Sensibloom A&B
AN Overdrive

I flood 4 times a day. 3 times during lights on, then once in the middle of the dark cycle. I also marked the inside of my 55 gal rez at the 30 gal mark, because I like to change out weekly.

If I am following correctly:

Specs: Ripcord
System: 9 site Multi-flow from ??
Space: ? ft
Light: 600w
Height flowered: 2 weeks from clone
Height finished: ?
Buckets: 9 ?gal bucket in bucket
Medium: Hydroton
Watering: 3 times during lights on, then once in the middle of the dark cycle
Avg yield: 67-93g/bucket or 600-840g total
Rez size: 55gal
Rez change: change out weekly
Rez temp: ?
Rez aerated: ?
Style: ? (Trees, bushes, trellis, scrog, tomato cages)
Strain: ?
A/C: ?
Dehumi: ?
CO2: ?

 

[Haps]

Chaps, I design redundant solutions, not minimal bullshit like what you can buy in the store. All buckets and reses have their own cheap air pumps, this allows simple cheap maintenance, like today, I have to replace two air pumps on my other rig, they work, but not at full strength, so it is easy to replace them, and cheap. The rig will work fine even if multiple units fail, which has not happened, as I do my scheduled maintenance between crops.

Did you notice the insulation? All buckets, reses, and water hoses are insulated, so I do not need a chiller. And this rig has redundant water lines, two per bucket, in case one side clogs, which has not happened. My small rig has only one water feed and works just as well, but I had to test to be sure.

This is a tidal system, based on e&f. Buckets have two inches of water bubbling at all times, and there is about nine inches of root hanging, which is not a problem in this system. The tide floods in, stays for an hour, then flows out, six times a day, for ten weeks, or, 420 floods per crop, I did not plan that hehe.

I use one K blue and one K yellow, and the flowers are the closest to outdoor of any of the indoor methods I have tried. Yield is almost double over the same genetics in dwc. I call this the big rig.
H

 

[OgreSeeker]

Yo Haps,
I was just cracking on all those pumps. Makes for a mess of cords. You can never have to much 02 but I don't think you would even need all those unless your doing DWC or rec DWC where the roots get submerged for long periods of time. And there aren't to many people that even use chillers with E&F systems...no need to.
Haps, do your roots hang down (submerge) into the 2" of bubbling water? If so then I understand using all those pumps...if not then why bother (you could just put some on the main res and accomplish the same goal).
**EDIT** --Just read your post again...guess if your flooding on 1 hour intervals you would need the extra 02--

I'm also a DIY guy (mostly because hydro manufacturers don't make systems large enough to accommodate my needs) and try to build in as many redundant safety features as possible. That's why I would prefer hydroton surrounding my roots rather than air in case of power outages.


Got any threads you can point me to on this E&F/DWC hybrid setup (tidal system)? I'd like to read more about it.


Now back to the questions at hand...sorry

Hello all you Multi-flow/Ebb&Grow Users,

In about a months time I will be running a six site systems myself. I was wondering if any experienced users could chime in with their battle stories.

The most I have heard that was produced from this system is 6#'s from two 1k lights, CO2, A/C, dehumi and 17 buckets (source: SeeMoreBuds vol:3[the last segment]). The norm seems to be 2# per 1k light once you have your shit dialed in.

Ideally what kind of structure am I looking for in a strain? Tree? Bush?

I would go with 3' to 4' bushy trees. Multi-Flow systems are perfect for large bulky plants.

Watering times? 3 times? Every 6 hours? Lights off?

The first few weeks I flood 4 times a day for 30 minutes and once at night.
After the roots are established I flood 3 times a day for 30 minutes and once at night.


Bucket within bucket? 10in Netpot lids?

I prefer bucket in bucket but 10" netpot will work.

Rez changeouts? Never change it?

This is a personal preference but I change my res every 2 to 3 weeks religiously...even if it doesn't need it.
Many people say it's a waste of money (probably is) but I'm scared to do a full run with no change out (don't know what I'm scared of LOL).

Light distance from canopy? Static light height?

I use x8 1000 watters (air cooled w/ glass insert) and I try to keep them about 18" from the top of my plants. Of course many of your outside plants will be further away but whatcha gonna do .

Medium? Hydroton? Perlite?

Prefer Hydroton...can use Lava Rock also.

A/C? Dehumi? How many fans?

This all depends on the type of room you plan to build, how big you plan on going and the geographical location. Will you be using air cooled lighting? Will your room be totally sealed? Is your area unusually humid or hot? These are all things to consider when planning a build.

Special wiring requirements? Subpanels?

This also is determined by how big you go. You said that you were planing on doing a 6 site system so it can't possibly draw that much power. How many watts are you going to run?

Please come and share so we all can learn a thing or two about this productive grow method.

Specs: Sealed 8kw 60 site grow
System: DIY 60 site Multi-Flow
Space: 15'x30' area (includes walkway, storage area, space for ballasts-res etc)
Light: x8 1000w HPS Sunlight Supply 6" Cool Suns
Height flowered: Depends on strain - Usually 18" to 24"
Height finished: Depends on strain - between 48" to 70" *depends on strain*
Buckets: 4 gallon bucket in bucket (60 site)
Medium: Hydroton
Watering: Established plants get flooded 3 times a day for 30 minutes.
Avg yield: Between 70 to 105 grams per bucket/plant. This depends on strain.
Rez size: One 265 gallon holding tank and two 55 gallon poly drums
Rez change: Usually every two weeks.
Rez temp: Stays around 74 / No chiller / no root rot (EVER)
Rez aerated: Yes, one air pump for the main res (394 gph/ 24,800 cc/minute capacity OVERKILL) and one water pump to keep the water circulating.
Style: ? Bush like trees tied up with twine. Strain: Serious Seeds AK-47, Bubblegum and Res Double Straw Diesel?
A/C: ? Yes 24,000 btu with box
Dehumi: ? Yes LG 65
CO2: ? Yes Green Air CD-6 w/ controller monitor. PPM stays at 1500.
Nutes: General Hydroponic 3 part w/ botanicares Cal-Mag if needed.

 

[eLiguL]

Hey Haps,

This is a tidal system, based on e&f. Buckets have two inches of water bubbling at all times, and there is about nine inches of root hanging, which is not a problem in this system. The tide floods in, stays for an hour, then flows out, six times a day, for ten weeks, or, 420 floods per crop, I did not plan that hehe.

If im not mistaken:

Specs: Haps
System: Tidal system, based on e&f. Buckets/dual floodlines
Space: ?
Light: 1000w HPS, 1000w MH?
Height flowered: ?
Height finished: ?
Buckets: 15-?gal with 5in netpot lids?
Medium: ?
Watering: 6 times a day 1hr flood times
Avg yield: 60g/bucket or 2lbs/896g “pull a bit more one number per K”
Rez size: ?
Rez change: ?
Rez temp: ?
Rez aerated: Y, all rezs and buckets have a dedicated airpump
Style: ? (Trees, bushes, trellis, scrog, tomato cages)
Strain: ?
A/C: ?
Dehumi: ?
CO2: ?

 

[Ripcord]

Hey Ripcord,



If I am following correctly:

Specs: Ripcord
System: 9 site Multi-flow from ??
Space: ? ft
Light: 600w
Height flowered: 2 weeks from clone
Height finished: ?
Buckets: 9 ?gal bucket in bucket
Medium: Hydroton
Watering: 3 times during lights on, then once in the middle of the dark cycle
Avg yield: 67-93g/bucket or 600-840g total
Rez size: 55gal
Rez change: change out weekly
Rez temp: ?
Rez aerated: ?
Style: ? (Trees, bushes, trellis, scrog, tomato cages)
Strain: ?
A/C: ?
Dehumi: ?
CO2: ?

Specs: Ripcord
System: 9 site Multi-flow from ?? Ebb & Gro Controller
Like This
Space: ? ft Approx 4'x4'x7'
Light: 600w
Height flowered: 2 weeks from clone
Height finished: 3 to 3 1/2 ft
Buckets: 9 ?gal bucket in bucket - 2 Gal
Medium: Hydroton
Watering: 3 times during lights on, then once in the middle of the dark cycle
Avg yield: 67-93g/bucket or 600-840g total
Rez size: 55gal
Rez change: change out weekly
Rez temp: 68-72
Rez aerated: No (system aerates itself during cycles)
Style: ? (Trees, bushes, trellis, scrog, tomato cages) Tree's/String/Plant Yo-Yo's
(Will be switching to cages soon)
Strain: NGSC Dynamite
A/C: Central Air
Dehumi: No
CO2: ? No

Theres some killer DIY threads here on similar setups. The reason I bought mine was I had the money and my day job doesnt leave me much free time.

 

[eLiguL]

Now back to the questions at hand...sorry

Light: x8 1000w HPS Sunlight Supply 6" Cool Suns
- have you had a look at Pico's aircooled reflector review thread?

Height finished: Depends on strain - between 48" to 70"
- lol 6 footers

Buckets: 60-4g bucket in bucket
- you must use a lot of hydroton, any tips on how you wash them after a crop?

Watering: Established plants get flooded 3 times a day for 30 minutes.
- how often for unestablished plants?

Avg yield: Between 70 to 105 grams per bucket/plant. This depends on strain.
- 10-15#
- Which strains did you find yielded better?

Rez size: One 265 gallon holding tank and two 55 gallon poly drums
- lol id loved to see this, must be ginormous

Strain: Serious Seeds AK-47, Bubblegum and Res Double Straw Diesel?
- I think laidbackgreen is running AK47 in a 18 site system as well

 

[eLiguL]

Specs: Ripcord
System: 9 site Multi-flow from Ebb-N-Grow ControllerLike This
Space: Approx 4'x4'x7'ft
Light: 600w
Height flowered: 2 weeks from clone
Height finished: 3 to 3 1/2 ft
Buckets: 9-2gal bucket in bucket
Medium: Hydroton
Watering: 3 times during lights on, then once in the middle of the dark cycle
Avg yield: 67-93g/bucket or 600-840g total
Rez size: 55gal
Rez change: change out weekly
Rez temp: 68-72
Rez aerated: No (system aerates itself during cycles)
Style: ? (Trees, bushes, trellis, scrog, tomato cages) Tree's/String/Plant Yo-Yo's
(Will be switching to cages soon)
Strain: NGSC Dynamite
A/C: Central Air
Dehumi: No
CO2: ? No

Thanks for participating

 

[DEDHEDFRED]

Hey Eligul.......Haps has dialed a hybrid system that he`s rockin but to use netpots that small or even 10" ones that sit on top of 5 gal. buckets does not work with a true timed cycle flood and drain ebb and flow system........Almost 5 yrs. ago I tried big 10" netpots in 1 room and bucket inside bucket like my old krusty bucket grows in the other room......Holes in the bottom only won hands down due to the room with netpots having too much air and temp fluctuation between feeds in the rootzones while multitudes of roots hanging in mid air formed "cord roots" that`re detrimental to nutrient uptake in DWC type grows.....Haps........Major respect for the kinda yields you`re getting from your tidal flood thingy with all the DO they`re gettin while they`re submerged in water.....I`ve run E and F buckets for a while so if you need any help just holler E.........I don`t use a controller bucket per se........And I know every trick or upgrade there is ta make this system pump it out but I`m not sure we all might wanna go do Hap`s setup.......Take care......DHF......... .........

 

[eLiguL]

Hey Dedhedfred,

I know every trick or upgrade there is ta make this system pump it out

Would you care to share with the rest of the class?

So far from the data that ive collected here are my observations:

- Support for your girls is almost a must (tomato cages seem ideal)
- each bucket should yield between 70-100g regardless of amount of light
- 3.5ft seems to be the average finishing height
- 1.5ft seems to be the average height before flower
- aeration of your rez does not seem to be an issue
- rez temps of 68-74F are acceptable
- average watering interval 3.5hrs per flood
- strawberry diesel is the most popular strain

Of course I would need more data to draw any conclusions about this system but its a great start.

 

[Haps]

Let's see, the big rig is 5 x 8, but I have stopped using two of the corners, they do not get enough light, so I am running 13 girls in thatr rig. FNB/FLB, modified off of the Lucas ratio. The harem, blue nepalese, north indian hasplant both down from Reefs gear, sour D, and two sweet tooth crosses, one I call sweet tooth and one that is sweet widow, ST was the male in those crosses. I have tomato cages on the three center buckets, zip tied to the lids, all buckets have dual bungee cords so that I can add stakes on any point that needs them, and I use bungees hanging from the frame for the tall girls. I start the bloom at 15-20 inches to 3ft and the girls run from 4-6 feet. I shape a stadium using the nature of the genetics.

Yeah, I do not recommend this, but it bloody works like a dream, and this is what I do in the real world, think new shit up. The air pumps did take some work to keep neat, they are all hanging by tiny bungees, I had a lot of fun building this.
H