The positives/negatives of organic hydro?

[the_shadow]

I've read a lot of the threads on here "this is organic" "no its not" "you need purely organic" "that's not organic enough" etc.

What's the main reason you grow organic?

I've heard that it's healthier to smoke and such, which is why I'm interested in it. But to be honest, I've never (in 10 years) smoked organic herb. So I'm trying to decide if buying a complete set of organic nutes/boosters is really worth the expense.

Is it?

Does water curing accomplish the same thing as growing organic?

Do you still have to flush for 10 days in organic?

Are the yields better or worse than traditional hydro?

What are the pro/cons?





I don't want to start a shit-storm, but I'm sincerely interested. Thanks!

 

[MrFista]

Our food is said to contain only 20% average the nutrition it contained in the 40's. This is from growing with chemical ferts. There is a dead zone in the gulf of mexico where nothing lives there, and if people keep using chemicals there will be more and more dead zones.

Organics used to be a niche market for radicals and hippie types. Today it is the sane thing to do.

 

[G33k Speak]

Organics support a healthy soil and allow your plants to develope fully.

I compare it to a kid raised on homegrown veggies and meat, versus a kid raised on fast food and mac N cheese from a box.

Which one do you think wouold be healthier?

 

[sunnyside]

G33k its not at all like that...

mineral salt fertilizers are not mac n cheese. mineral salt fertilizers are aggressive and cheap and work.

The bad rap the mineral nutrients get comes from the ag industry, and rightfully so. For 50+ years they have sprayed tons and tons and tons of urea and DDT and other garbage on their fields. The runoff is terrible and pollutes the water. The farmers have been killing everything around them, from the microbes in their own soil to fish and frogs and everything else in between.

Indoors in a hobby environment....this is completely different, especially in hydro. I know that when I have used chem nutes in hydro, the grows were extremely efficient. Low water use and low fertilizer waste for the amount of bud produced. I didn't contribute anything negative from the use of chem nutes in hydro.

If you feed your plants correctly you will have extremely healthy buds using either organic or salt fertilizers.


Aside from that... all I can say is that I have grown in soil with organics and minerals, and I have grown in hydro with organics and minerals. And I don't remember smoking bad buds from any combination I tried.

True organic hydro can be difficult even for an experienced gardener.

 

[guineapig]

I am a big fan of Sugar Peak: Sweet & Heavy, a new nutrient line specifically designed for "Organic Hydroponics" applications.....

although i used it in a soil-based medium and in a lighter pro-mix/coconut medium, i noticed that the stuff is awesome......it dissolves into water like magic.....i know that sounds funny, but the stuff just completely disappears into water like no other nutrient line i have ever seen......it really brings out the flavor and the trichome development seemed much more intense (perhaps due to high brix levels).....

it seems to me that the problem with organic hydro would happen when you tried to introduce beneficial bacteria and mycorrhizae into your system.......the beneficial bacteria can swing your pH as the "micro-herd" becomes larger and smaller over the course of the plants lives......this is especially bad in DWC (deep water culture) applications.....

but, of course, sunnyside is 100% correct (as he always is)......both organics and salt-based fertilizers will produce great flowers.......

water curing? i would shy away from this, especially if you are a beginning grower....
yield? yield depends on how long you let the plant grow in the vegetative phase, as well as the plant's particular set of flowering genetics......lots of variables here so it is hard to say, really.....
do you still have to flush? yes. i would be more concerned about flushing when using a salt-based fertilizer, but really flushing is recommended by most growers in all growing environments......now i have met a few growers who refuse to flush and swear that it makes no difference.....however, i have met many many more growers who think flushing is a good idea......i wish we could find some scientific studies which addresses this issue.....

cons? like sunnyside said, true organic hydro can be a difficult task......you might encounter pH shifts, clogged drippers, difficulty in finding certain products, possible problems with sustaining beneficial microbes, your organic teas might smell really funky, etc......i guess my advice is to get the "Sugar Peak: Sweet & Heavy" nutrient line (either the 2-part or the 3-part system) because it is so darn easy and you won't have any of these problems.....

pros? you get to tell people "this bud is organic hydroponics"......probable improvments in taste and trichome development when compared to salt-based fertilizers.....

kind regards from guineapig

 

[MrFista]

Great posts.

For me, supporting chem ferts is supporting an industry that has repeatedly lied and wrecked the place for profit. I just can't buy or use chems anymore the wildlife has changed since I was a boy they've made a huge mess and now I refuse to have a bar of it.

People as thoughtful as the above posters, in a commercial enterprise, are rare.

 

[sunnyside]

its not the nutrients fault...or the miners that harvest the ore that goes into making refined mineral nutrition.

Did you know that the same monopotassium phosphate that makes your buds swell, is the same stuff they put into gatorade as nutrition. SO if you drink gatorade or consume pretty much anything in this world. You are supporting the same people...

The mfrs that produce hydroponic grade fertilizers marketed towards pot growers are not the same folks that have poisoned the earth. Hydro nute companies surely buy from the same place gatorade buys from. But in much less quantities. lol

 

[sunnyside]

ignorance was and is to blame. Miseducation by OUR government played a big role, big surprise eh?

 

[the_shadow]

Thanks for the responses. After reading everything, I think I'll try organic. See for myself what the differences are, and hopefully grow some good buds.

I'm not a health nut (I smoke marlboro's), but if organic hydro does taste better or yield better... well, why not have a go?

Thanks again everybody!

 

[G33k Speak]

G33k its not at all like that...

mineral salt fertilizers are not mac n cheese. mineral salt fertilizers are aggressive and cheap and work.

.....

You're confusinfying me.

You rarely - if ever- can have something that is good,effective and cheap. Usually- you can only have two from the list.

Chem ferts = mac and cheese.
over processed cheap crap.

Yes, mac n cheese will put on weight, but not healthy weight gain.

In organics - we feed the soil, because the soil is alive with the micro-organisms that break down the nutes and make them available to the plants.
Chemical ferts will kill the micro-organisms that feed the plants.

 

[sunnyside]

yes...chem nutes are cheap, aggressive, and work great in the short term. That is why farmers have been using 'chem's for half a century.

In the long run...you are right, 'chem' nutes kill the life in the soil. Making your soil and the plants you grow dependent on the continual use of the 'chem' nutes.

But are we talking long term sustainable gardening practices or are we talking hydro?

'chem' nutes are fantastic nutrition if used properly in the proper setting.

'organic' nutes are fantastic if used properly in the proper setting.


Did you know that there is omri certifiable organic potassium sulfate? Do you know what the difference is between certifiably organic potassium sulfate and 'chem' potassium sulfate? The organic version hasn't been cleaned. lol It's the same stuff from the same mine...the only difference is that the organic version has not been processed to remove contamination and 'dust'. The 'chem' version has been cleaned and had all impurities removed.

Did you also know that the 'chem' version of potassium sulfate is 4x more soluable in water than the 'organic version? So the 'chem' version will stay in solution for a longer time...giving your plants a chance to take it in.

SO...in the case of potassium sulfate...'chem' is better. And even though it is processed more, the 'chem' version actually costs less. It's like how diesel is processed less than gasoline, yet sells for more...it doesn't make sense.

 

[sunnyside]

...all this talk of mac n cheese has got me hungry.

If we must compare nutrients to noodles n cheese then urea is kraft dinner. Hydro grade mineral nutes are more like gourmet fettuccini alfredo.


Listen, I am an organic guy. I grow organically. I use compost teas, and microbial innoculants and mycorrhizae fungi and all that. I use these products because I 'believe' that it produces a slightly superior product. ...in the same breath... I know that mineral nutrients are more aggressive, cheaper, and work great if used properly.

In Hydro systems specifically...which is what this conversation is about. Mineral nutrients will outperform organic nutrients 9 times out of 10 in growth rates and yield. The reason...there are many.

1. Growing organically is completely dependent on the microorganisms. The fungi, bacteria, protozoa, nematodes, worms, etc... These guys take the guano's and the meals, and the emulsions, and the manures, and they break them down into a form that plants can actually take in.

1a. Microorganisms don't thrive in most hydro systems. They just don't. You can continually add the aerated compost teas and the fungi and whatnot, but they don't thrive. And if they aren't living, they can't do what they are there to do, break down nutrient.

1b. Manures, guanos, emulsions, meals, etc...are not made to be thrown together in a mix and bubbled around in a reservoir for a week. They just aren't. If you talk to anyone who has ever tried true organic hydroponics, they can tell you that it is a mess. The pH is all over the place, the reservoir stinks, it's foamy, it stains the system. You get all this 'bio-slime' that coats everything and turns everything into one giant mess.

2. Mineral "chem" nutes are immediately available. And availability is everything.


In attempting organic hydro...we are attempting to take nature and conform it's processes to our indoor high performance hydroponic setups...and the two don't always mix well.

Even indoor organic soil gardens, using all the microbial innoculants and teas and fungi and whatnot, are still not performing at a pace that can keep up with soil gardens using mineral 'chem' nutrients.

Why? Because the 'chem' nutrients are in a form that plants can take in immediately. So as soon as you feed your soil, your plants can take the food in immediately. Using organic inputs and microbial agents...the food still must be processed in your media. It takes time for these microbes to break down the nutrition into a form that plants can take in. Time is growth and time is yield.

Oh...and the organic nutes... the cucumber salad

 

[G33k Speak]

The nutes ARE available if you have healthy micro-flora to break 'em down.
There are no shortcuts to quality.

and I don't drink Gatorade- 'cause it's made with high fructose corn syrup - more overprocessed, unhealthy crap.

 

[sunnyside]

I'm not sure if you are actually reading, or just posting. The nutes are made available over time as the microbes make them available. Nothing happens overnight with organics. If you are growing in a media where the 'microherd' can't proliferate...then it is very difficult to cultivate healthy thriving plants organically.

With mineral (chem) nutes the nutrition is available immediately. And you aren't relying on anything to make the nutrition available...it already is.

Hydroponics is all about shortcuts...lol. One of the biggest benefits from gardening hydroponically is increased growth rates and yield. This is because of the immediate availability of the nutrition used. If you are using an organic nutrient that isn't available, and then you don't have a healthy microherd to process and make that organic nutrient available, what do you have? A shit soup and deficient plants.

 

[G33k Speak]

You're sort of talking in circles sunnyside. This about organic hydro. See the title?

Do you have any studies that show microorganisms don't live/thrive in a hydro environment??

and hydroponics certainly isn't about shortcuts...LOL. Soil is much easier then hydro.

Natural system survive becuse they have a balanced sytem, and don't require chemical inputs. Ever seen an elf spreading Miracle Grow in the forest??

Adding chemical is the shortcut. You're trying to improve upon a natural system- and you end up with stuff like pigs in confinement barns and chickens that have never been outside.

Chickens don't produce the proper nutritional content without sunshine!

Hydro is about giving the plants an 'ideal/perfect' environment so they can flourish- that's why they grow faster.

 

[sunnyside]

You make absolutely no sense to me....and I obviously don't make any sense to you. So...there isn't any point in taking this any further. Take it easy...

 

[Mt Toaker]

I skimmed a few answers here and my best response is that you are using things made by nature to grow something that grows in nature. Its not processed by man and it more environmentally friendly because there are no adverse effects from these natural substances, since it is from nature it can go back and rejoin nature when it is done being used. You mentioned flushing for 10 days, that is because of salt buildups from the man made chemicals on the root system because these are not naturally occurring chemicals. I am a firm believer in organics and it wasn't the pot that did it for me, it was the grape juice. I bought some 100% Organic grape juice and the difference in flavor alone sold me on all organics. If done properly you can yield a large amount with organics.

 

[G33k Speak]

"As no two elements of nature are in conflict,
so when we perceive the ways of nature, we remove conflict within ourselves and
discover a harmony of body and mind,
in accord with the flow of the the universe. "

 

[SvenB]

You're sort of talking in circles sunnyside. This about organic hydro. See the title?

Do you have any studies that show microorganisms don't live/thrive in a hydro environment??

and hydroponics certainly isn't about shortcuts...LOL. Soil is much easier then hydro.

Natural system survive becuse they have a balanced sytem, and don't require chemical inputs. Ever seen an elf spreading Miracle Grow in the forest??

Adding chemical is the shortcut. You're trying to improve upon a natural system- and you end up with stuff like pigs in confinement barns and chickens that have never been outside.

Chickens don't produce the proper nutritional content without sunshine!

Hydro is about giving the plants an 'ideal/perfect' environment so they can flourish- that's why they grow faster.

imo, Hydro is alot easier then soil. There is so much lower upkeep, if youre careful and use everything properly it literally takes like 10% of the work.

You also make no sense, you just seem to be arguing. 90% of the time chem ferts will kick organic ferts ass, in a hydro setup. Also this isn't talking about watering your crop of 300 acres, its a home hydro system, the negative run off will be nil, unmeasurable and can in fact be beneficial to other vegetation depending on what you do with old water.

"As no two elements of nature are in conflict,
so when we perceive the ways of nature, we remove conflict within ourselves and
discover a harmony of body and mind,
in accord with the flow of the the universe. "

Bull Shit. I can find you off the top of my head at least 25 examples of nature being in conflict with its self. Is any predator eating its prey not CLEAR conflict?

 

[G33k Speak]

imo, Hydro is alot easier then soil. There is so much lower upkeep, if youre careful and use everything properly it literally takes like 10% of the work.

You also make no sense, you just seem to be arguing. 90% of the time chem ferts will kick organic ferts ass, in a hydro setup. Also this isn't talking about watering your crop of 300 acres, its a home hydro system, the negative run off will be nil, unmeasurable and can in fact be beneficial to other vegetation depending on what you do with old water.



Bull Shit. I can find you off the top of my head at least 25 examples of nature being in conflict with its self. Is any predator eating its prey not CLEAR conflict?

Where do you get your 'facts' about your 90% claim??
If chem i kills were so wonderful, everyone could just use miracle grow- but the best tasting high grade smoke I've seen- comes from organic ferts.


I'm sorry you are too simple to understand balance in nature.
Predator and prey have a balanced relationship.