But why are the calyx's still green?

[Whatever]

It's about $1,000 to have a set of 40 samples tested. You have to find a research facility which will work with Cannabis (IE: Universities in California, Canada, and England). Some won't ask questions, especially if nothing is labeled as 'Cannabis' or 'Marijuana'.

N and Mg tests are very inexpensive but 40 samples testing both at about $1,000 does sound about right.

I think there's so many myths, urban legends, misconceptions that could be quickly cleared up with some basic testing...someday.

The focus here seems to be on N and flushing but something being missed, I think, that will probably affect smoke quality more might be the trace mineral/element concentration? From what I understand excess N is pretty easy to get rid of, both in the soil and plant, but excess trace minerals are harder to translocate/flush/etc. Just going off info from a knowledgeable grower friend on this one.

Couldn't I just do a water cure with both and measure the water with a simple soil testing kit that measures N and Mg.

I don't think a water flush will be adequate. You'd have to actually micronize/digest/dissolve the plant material as I'm sure the N and Mg are locked up in the tissue/cellular structure itself. Just trying to leach it out wont work.

 

[FOE20]

Whatever your real close man..if not right by saying that theres allot of misconceptions...Im doin these tests your talking about atm..I can show some results if you folks wish..Its a really good topic and think it should be well discussed..
Just bare in mind that they don't flush Apple or Orange Trees when they Harvest them...or Do they?..Look how Green Corn gets prior to harvest..but at Harvest Corn also will Yellow in its foliage..
But Im still not sure if Canna is a Flower or partial Fruit
FOE20

 

[Whatever]

Im really not sure Chloriphill has all that much to do with flav in the end

One thing I'd like to add is once the plant material is dried any remaining chlorophyll will not degrade much because the moisture has been removed. Water is technically a solvent and necessary for certain chemical/biochemical reactions/processes which includes the degradation of chlorophyll. Under certain conditions chlorophyll will quickly degrade into pheophytin and pheophorbide. What you are seeing in a dried plant as green may not really be all chlorophyll-a.

A properly dried sample of green plant material will retain it's remaining chlorophyll almost indefinitely. Of course chlorophyll will degrade very slowly over time but veeerrryyy slowly.

I dry/cure based on what I read DJ Short say...as slow as possible without causing mold (and I'll add fermentation). Curing is more art than science IME.

 

[gramsci.antonio]

but why doing it slowly?

An accelerated drying process, in an ambient poor of oxygen, will accelerate this reaction:

N2+H20 = NH3+O2 (to be balanced) (ammonia + oxygen)


giving your weed that marvelous taste of brick weed.

 

[Whatever]

but why doing it slowly?

An accelerated drying process, in an ambient poor of oxygen, will accelerate this reaction:

N2+H20 = NH3+O2 (to be balanced) (ammonia + oxygen)

giving your weed that marvelous taste of brick weed.

Like I said art and not science. Based on what I know the breakdown of certain components is accelerated if there is some moisture present. The more moisture the faster the reactions occur. Your talk of 'in an ambient poor of oxygen' is more like a putrefaction process. Your example is easy to test and see what the results are. Just take some still very wet, freshly cut weed and seal in a jar then open in a week. I'm sure there will be some type of pressure release and a very nasty smell also. I think good air circulation is key in properly drying herb.

Another thing you can try is cut some branches at harvest, trim em up really good then stick in a glass of fresh, clean water like cut flowers and put in very subdued light. Change the water every day. They will take up a lot of water at first then it will slow down. Do this about 5 days then dry, cure and smoke...very smooth.

So what's happening with a water flush like that? I can only hypothesize there are certain biochemical reactions going on inside the plants tissue. Since it is not taking up water AND nutes from the roots the plant exhausts any nutes/whatever in it's intra and extracellular tissue. Obviously it is still respirating to some extent as it's taking up water. May be more to it than that but I can only relate this example to just watching cut flowers in water. They are still alive and functioning to some extent. Biochemical reactions continue with water still being present.

Look how Green Corn gets prior to harvest..but at Harvest Corn also will Yellow in its foliage..

Yup...plants have a natural life cycle and toward the end will start to slowly die off. Even prior to a killing frost I see plants in nature start to just give up the ghost as they mature. But does the yellowing have to do with N translocation in a case like this or is the plants just slowly shutting down and the N % is the same in the yellowing leaves. I mean the plants in nature should have access to about the same amount of N in the soil at the start of the season as when they finish.

 

[guest]

WOW .. I'm going to throw something out. Don't know if I can document it or if I even want to try.

I remember reading somewhere that cannabinoids are formed in the fan leaves as they are expanding. If material is pulled from the fan leaves into the flower in the dying process, then it makes sense to do what triggers that process best.

 

[inflorescence]

I think that somewhere musta been fantasy land.

there's a link on here (icmag) somewhere where marijuana man on youtube (something like UVB and Me) talks about and shows in pretty great detail just how the cannabinoids form in the capitulate trichome heads (on the calyxs) and basically the precursuors are in the base of the head and pass thru this membrane and some sort of catalyst (UVB? I think so) changes the CBD to THC.

 

[inflorescence]

calyxs are still green because their color doesn't come from clorophil, since there's no photosyntetic reaction on them.

Do you have a link to this supposed fact, because the green sure looks like, and smokes like, cholorphyll to me?
The green even dissolves in water (in a water cure) and it's known cholorphyll is water soluable.

 

[guest]

Great info. thanks

Now you're gonna make me look the stuff up. I'll probably never find it.

 

[joebean91]

Are you seriously arguing against a proper flush ? I grow almost completely organic and always flush for two and a half weeks . Any less and the flavor really isn't up to par .

 

[inflorescence]

Great info. thanks

Now you're gonna make me look the stuff up. I'll probably never find it.

thc, UVB and me

 

[guest]

convincing .. thanks

 

[Liam]

Blah blah blah blah...

I've done no flushing, 1 week of flushing, 2 weeks of flushing, I've done jar/vacuum bag/water curing, I've done all different combinations with different strains and different grow mediums.


Flushing is a must, and flushing is more far important than curing.

Water curing changes the high, I found that food didn't taste as great, others explained apparently terpenes are water soluble and linked to that effect of marijuana. Not all strains are as loaded with terpenes either.

I've never seen my own yellow calyxs... even with two weeks of flushing in an aeroponics system. However, I have seen them in pictures, the one flushing method I have yet to try... you tie string around the stem and tighten it so that phloem is cut off, immediately stopping nutrient uptake from the roots, but not stopping water uptake through the woody stem. Its reknown for being expectionally smooth and head high...

 

[inflorescence]

you tie string around the stem and tighten it so that phloem is cut off, immediately stopping nutrient uptake from the roots, but not stopping water uptake through the woody stem. Its reknown for being expectionally smooth and head high...

Um if xylem is always inside of phloem (in a stem cross section) and xylem is responsible for the translocation of nutes and water from the roots to the shoots then how is cutting off the pholem (the outer part of the stem) gonna stop that unless you cut off both and kill the bud.

I guess cutting off the phloem could stop the phytosynthates (sugars) from the fans reaching the calyxs and this would make the calyxs deficient in phytosynthates but is it the phytosynthates (sugars) and not the N or Mg which cause the harsh smoke? Maybe so?

Also, I thought most of the sugary phytosynthates were being translocated down from the fans to the roots which makes me think the green calyxs are phytosynthizing their own sugars.

 

[gramsci.antonio]

Do you have a link to this supposed fact, because the green sure looks like, and smokes like, cholorphyll to me?
The green even dissolves in water (in a water cure) and it's known cholorphyll is water soluable.

Almost all dioecious plants don't make photosyntesis on the calyxes, or the reproductive system, to protect the offspring. I studied it at the biology course of high school.

Many pigments are found in the plants, and not all of them are chlorophyll. They could also be water-soluble.


An intersting experiment would be to water cure a bud in alcool, since clorophyl has a low solubility in fats.

 

[gramsci.antonio]

Like I said art and not science. Based on what I know the breakdown of certain components is accelerated if there is some moisture present. The more moisture the faster the reactions occur.

it depends on the type of reaction

Your talk of 'in an ambient poor of oxygen' is more like a putrefaction process.

The typical example is a very big commercial grower, that pick up the weed and put it in a hot room, still wet and vacuum-packed.

The reaction is endothermic, and will happens just by physical reasons.


If the reaction is carried in nature, maybe under the soil, particular enzymes, which are also found in the biologic soil of the plant (Nitrogenase), make this reaction to make N again aviable to new offspring (ammonia is a very good fert).

Still if you close a bud a in a jar with air, anaerobic bacteria (strange uh? anaerobic bacteria need air to work) will form volatile Organosulfur compounds that are responsible for the bad small (a part the one of ammonia).

Ammonia form a good habitat for spores, while the bacteria eliminate the sulphur to help the sprout of molds.

Your example is easy to test and see what the results are. Just take some still very wet, freshly cut weed and seal in a jar then open in a week. I'm sure there will be some type of pressure release and a very nasty smell also. I think good air circulation is key in properly drying herb.

In the water ammonia transform in ammonium chloride and ammonium sulphate, which are salts very easy to wash away.

 

[inflorescence]

Almost all dioecious plants don't make photosyntesis on the calyxes, or the reproductive system, to protect the offspring. I studied it at the biology course of high school.

Many pigments are found in the plants, and not all of them are chlorophyll. They could also be water-soluble.

http://www.actahort.org/books/436/436_38.htm

Persimmon fruit possesses relatively large calyx lobes compared with other fruits. Unlike fruit skin, persimmon calyx lobes have many stomata on their surface and retain chlorophyll until harvest. So, photosynthesis by calyx lobes may have some contribution to fruit development. To examine this possibility, 13CO2 feeding experiments were conducted at an early stage of fruit development. The calyx lobes showed the greatest photosynthetic ability among fruit parts, and accounted for almost all of fruit photosynthesis. The photosynthetic activity of calyx lobes expressed on unit area basis was about 140% of that of leaves. However, most of the 13C-assimilates in calyx lobes did not move to other parts and stayed there even 10 days after feeding. Moreover, covering calyx lobes with aluminum foil on the tree had no significant effect on fruit set and fruit growth, despite a remarkable decline in fruit photosynthesis. These results indicate that photosynthesis by calyx lobes has no contribution to early fruit development.

I think it's safe to say that cannabis has one of the largest, if not the largest calyx's of all dioecious plants considering the calyx covers the entire freakin seed. So I think it may be fair to assume cannabis uses the same strategy as a persimmon, whose calyx is large but not nearly as big.

 

[gramsci.antonio]

i think or you proved me wrong, or that fruit is one of the exception in dioecious plants i was speaking about.

 

[Whatever]

The typical example is a very big commercial grower, that pick up the weed and put it in a hot room, still wet and vacuum-packed.

The reaction is endothermic, and will happens just by physical reasons.

When I was talking slower is better this is not the scenario I had in mind but agree the example you gave will create 'brick' type weed. When I started growing again a few years ago I was always in a hurry to dry mainly cause I didn't want the buds to rot/mold. Now I take my time and make many adjustments based on the room temp, how much is in there, etc. The general ambient humidity also plays a big role in the process. If a big harvest hanging in a smaller space I'll blow fans right on the buds...at least in the beginning. Sometimes I'll just blow the fans so they just barely tickle em. The more moisture that comes out the more I slow down the process. Sometimes I'll even close the area they are drying in up for a bit. I have no set method.

An intersting experiment would be to water cure a bud in alcool, since clorophyl has a low solubility in fats.

It'll also be an interesting experiment because chlorophyll degrades quickly in a water cure.

 

[Skrappie]

inflorescence, now you're just being overly literal. If you can make the connection that flushing routes the n from the leaf to the bud, then i'm guessing you can make the connection that even though there is some N in the bud leaf of a properly flushed plant, its not in the same concentrations.

Though i really don't know what i'm talking about. I'm just a stoner not a scientist. But i'm going to guess neither are you.

oh! before I forget, I'm not going off on a limb to say that flushing makes your buds smooth, or anything like that. To be honest I really don't care, as long as herb smokes as smooth as herb I'm going to have a decent day.
I should also state that I flush out of tradition, I does not hurt, though i really don't think it does much.

I personally think that both: flushed buds are the cat's meow, and flushing buds does crap arguments are both on wild ends of the spectrum.

Properly cared for, and not overly toxic (overfed) plants smoke just fine, getting rid of some of the nutrients i'm sure has some effect, to what extent who knows.

Try doing the opposite of a flush and dumping high doses of a highly mobile nutrient in your plants the last 2 or 3 weeks to see how chemical concentrations move, and how it effects the smoothness of your smoke.

albeit, i've never done it before, but I can only assume it would not be the most pleasing thing.