thinning and shaping

[jugdishe]

hello all
what are your thoughts on trimming leaves to get better light penetration? I think i may be wasting good lumens on leaves...
and what training techniques do you use to get good mix of large and med sized tops?
any help would be good I seem to be getting half the yeild as i should based on what i have read .5g/w/month
thanks

 

[FreezerBoy]

Would you try to connect to the internet after unplugging the computer? Removing leaves is unplugging the plant from it's energy source. Better to grow horizontally through LST or ScROG. Note that 1 gram per watt is based on the use of a 600 or 1000 watt lamp (I forget which one) I got 0.5g per watt from my 250 CMH and was thrilled.

 

[trademanny]

FB is correct, those are like the plant's little 'solar panels'

However, you can tuck the large fan leaves behind bud sites to expose them to more light.

 

[Whatever]

What I'm gonna show is horrible. This is what happens when you hack your plants back at 2 weeks into flower with this strain. Be warned...it'll make you cry when you realize what happens if you cut off just 1 leaf. Pics are identified as to the age in the cycle they were taken...I think.

























I'm warning you to NEVER cut a leaf off otherwise your grow may end up like what I showed...very sad indeed.

 

[trademanny]

I'm warning you to NEVER cut a leaf off otherwise your grow may end up like what I showed...very sad indeed.

Oh the carnage!@#@

 

[Whatever]

Wish I took some pics before I trimmed them so y'all could see how much was removed. About 50%+ of the plants leaves were removed and quite a few branches. The plants just go nuts and the growing/flowering tips explode. The remaining fan leaves blow up a bit like balloons to compensate for the loss in other areas. You also have a much larger root to leaf ratio after the trim and think it can work the opposite way where you now have a larger root mass to drive up top growth. The finished bud structure/quality ends up better with this method IME. I don't think some strains would respond as well especially in soil. Also some strains would probably hermie being pruned so heavily 2 weeks into flower but this strain is pretty much bullet proof...tonka tough.

That room is history but glad I took that sequence of photos.

I think the argument for not removing any leaves makes logical sense but what I've done works. Fortunately I was trained by someone to do this 'properly' but also worked with an accomplished outdoor grower and learned other pruning/training techniques. At first I thought he was crazy but over time realized how effective proper structure manipulation can be.

 

[rule35sub1]

Just search for pruning and trimming, there are many ways to do it. I like to lollipop my plants.

 

[jugdishe]

wow thanks for all the input i have posted on uk420 and got no response at all sorry for the lack of attention to my post.
whatever forgive me but your series of pis looks like what is ideal:
many buds, even canopy indicating good light distribution
i too have trimmed what i feel to be too much undergrowth and that seem to be a waste of -light , money, time
i guess what i am looking for is the best way to train plant for the most efficient growth
the plant seem to do what they want and that doesn't always meant efficiency
maybe i should be paying closer attention in the very early stages? training trimming


thank you all to contributed

i have tried to do this by myself until now 1 year and i have to believe that i can do better but not sure where to look at making changes

 

[jugdishe]

also how can i post what my grow looks like to get some further advice?

 

[jugdishe]

i have , to the best of my ability tried to post 2 pics that show what i have.

 

[FreezerBoy]

Under User Menu at the top of the page is the option "Upload Pictures." Once pics are uploaded to IC servers, go to thread of your choice and click on "Post Reply." DO NOT use Quick Reply! With "Post Reply" you'll have an entry window for comments and underneath will be your photo gallery. Click on the photo you want to include. Note photos always appear below your comments. You'll have to cut and paste to move them further up.

Default setting places each picture below the last. The code resembles...

longaddress

longaddress

longaddress

If you remove the spaces between lines ...

longaddress longaddress longaddress

Pics show up in horizontal rows like this


If you click the "Quote" buttons on Whatever's post and mine, you'll see the difference. Mine may not show well that there's a single "spacebar" space between each address. This leaves a thin vertical seperation between pics.

I don't know how people get their photos to show large in the post and I wouldn't tell you if I did. I feel it's rude to force those with low bandwidth to wait on info they may well have no interest in. Keep them thumbnailed and let those interested click for larger pics.

 

[jugdishe]

thanks again for your help
this is what things looked like a couple weeks ago
bushes to be sure
is this the best approach to maximize yeilds from lights

 

[Whatever]

Jugdishe...I mainly posted that series of pics in response to FreezerBoy's comment about not removing any leaves. Nothing against FB personally but I've seen and had this conversation with many people about trimming/not trimming. My definitely sarcastic tone was not necessary and mainly out of frustration.

Do what SubRule said and search the forums for other threads about training/pruning as there are many different techniques and styles.

The room the pics were from had 6' ceilings and that's a big disadvantage especially with the strain I was growing due to its general internode spacing and stretch during flower. If you look at the 3'rd pic from the bottom with that lone top poking up from the canopy what would have been ideal is if I had 8' ceilings I could have created a canopy floor of tops AND larger tops poking out vertically from the canopy floor like that. My yield would have significantly improved.

A great part of what you're dealing with here is the strain...it's vigor, general structure and flowering tendencies. You have to respect each plants growth pattern and let it dictate how it should be trained which only comes from practice and paying attention.

Those look like 1000's you have and I see wasted space against the walls where you could train the plants into. A 1000 will cover a 5' x 5' space well for most strains so use all that space for starters. Some friends I know of will basically start in one corner, train the plants into aisle and dead space as they back out of the room then let em flower and finish up. Easy to do with a hydro setup.

I think most of the undergrowth should get cut out for one because it will virtually eliminate popcorn buds and focus growth on the upper buds. Another thing that happens is as light passes through the canopy there's an increase in the infrared spectrum, the plants sense this and stretch to compete for space in the canopy. A third benefit is better air circulation underneath. I would always run an oscillating fan between the growing medium and bottom of the canopy which really helps equalize humidity and eliminate air 'dead spots. Indoors a 1000 will only pass through about 12" of canopy...outdoors the sun can go through about 3' of canopy.

Part of it is timing the training/pruning and the flip to 12/12. I've always tried to keep the canopy as even as possible because the further you get away from the bulb light intensity decreases exponentially. I would shoot for training/pruning so I would create a nice even canopy then take advantage of the last like half of the stretch so tops would poke out of the canopy I created. With 1000's though you can create a deeper canopy due to their power. Some strains will hermie if pruned too much or too late into flower.

You should look into things supercropping and LST also. There's another technique to train larger, thicker branches where you put a hand on each internode and twist in opposite directions until you feel and hear a pop. Then move up to the next set of internodes and do the same thing in the opposite direction or the same direction as the previous internodes you just popped depending on which way you want to bend the branch. I've used this technique with branches on outdoor plants up to like 3/4 to 1" in diameter...basically as big as your hands/wrists can handle.

 

[Whatever]

Just as a quick follow up I recently grew 3 moms under a 6 40 watt fluoros under a 2' x 4' footprint. I pretty much let em grow straight up with little training/pruning except a little cleanup and tweaking. I moved them into the empty flower space under a 1000, popped their large branches like I mentioned, also did a little supercropping which reduced their height dramatically and spread the canopy out to over 6' x 6'. It was a little empty in spots but within 2 weeks was completely filled in.

 

[jugdishe]

thanks whatever--
I have tried some training: basically just tiying down when they first go into the pot you see in the picture but that has been the extent of it. I have have not followed up and continued to to tie as they grew to get the spread to continue. how many times did you have to tie for the pics shown?
the lights are 600 my understanding was 12 sq ft to get 50w/sqft
they are NL and only vegged for 15 days under hps after the initial veg under floro while waiting for the room to become available

do you feel .5g/watt/ mo is realistic?
ie 1200g dried at the end of 8 weeks? this seem to be the figure i have read many times and i come way short of that


thanks again for you input
jugdishe

 

[Whatever]

As for yields that's dependent on a lot of things but mainly the genetics. Also dependent on if hydro/soil/soilless, open or closed system, training/pruning, effectiveness of enviro control, nute regimen (including foliar feeding), etc.

DO (Dissolved Oxygen) levels in hydro are important. The quality (aeration) of your soil mix is important. There's a shitload of factors that all add up with some being more important than others. One thing I did once was get an accurate infrared thermometer and check the bud temps. It was in a larger space so easily can develop some microclimates. I didn't realize how much different things could be across the room though. The bud temps ranged from like very low 70's to higher 80's. The cold buds were almost half the size of the ones very high 70's to low 80's and the ones in the higher 80's showed a bit of burning. Some changes to the oscillating fans, incoming air ducting, air recirculation, etc. really helped even temps out then yields and overall quality improved.

600's are better for stationary growing than 1000's IMO due to better light distribution. I've used both and prefer the 600's. While still dependent on the setup the more watts/sq ft the better...up to a point.

I think about .5 g/watt per cycle is the least you should expect and not hard to achieve. Don't compare what you're doing to what other say you should be getting. Just keep improving your setup up and take out the weak links and yield will follow.

 

[SuperToker]

You can achieve 1g/watt but you need to have everything just right. Everything. Then you can get over 1g/watt. Don't expect it on your first grow or second or third for that matter.

 

[fideralala]

With sufficient ventilation one could just cut off the branches not needed/wanted and leave the fan leafs alone. if the plant doesn't need them anymore it'll drop them anyways.

 

[FreezerBoy]

Jugdishe...I mainly posted that series of pics in response to FreezerBoy's comment about not removing any leaves. Nothing against FB personally but I've seen and had this conversation with many people about trimming/not trimming. My definitely sarcastic tone was not necessary and mainly out of frustration.

I got the sarcasm and took no offense. :friends: I just read the question differently than you did. I do believe that pruning is good for plants, especially in small indoor grows. Heck, I'm a scrogger. Couldn't do it without trimming and shaping. This gals had three heavy trims in the last month alone. I've probably "lost" 40% of what I'd have gotten with a larger cab. But I don't have a larger cab so I chopped like mad. Sometimes you have to trim.



It just sounded like he was trimming out of annoyance more than need. If you can save the leaf, do it. Move it or the bud to the side with LST or ScROG. Tuck the leaf behind a stalk or screen. If none of those work, then off with it's head.

 

[Whatever]

I got the sarcasm and took no offense.

LOL...cool man. Thanx for the clarification on what you're doing and recommending. Bottom line I've found is there's a million ways to skin a cat (pruning/training) and we all basically end up in the same place at harvest time.

If you can save the leaf, do it. Move it or the bud to the side with LST or ScROG. Tuck the leaf behind a stalk or screen. If none of those work, then off with it's head.

Yup.