Many plants 70+, many pics, many issues!

[1love1earth]

COCO:

How long has this problem been going on? ongoing
What STRAIN are you growing? hashberry, big bang, safari mix, satori, early girl, swiss miss
What was the establishing technique? (seed or clone?) seed
What is the age of your plants? all plants shown are 4 weeks old
How Tall are the plants? 6-12 inches, a few are shorter
What PHASE (seedling, vegetative or flower) are the plants in? veg 24/0
What Technique are you using? ???
What size pots are you using? (Include how many subjects to pot) 18 oz keg cups, with a few transplanted to 1 gals
What substrate/medium are you using? What brand of soil mixture are you using?(percentage of perlite, vermiculite...etc?) pure Canna Coco coir, unrinsed
What Nutrient's are you using?How much of each with how much water? How Often? *Knowing the brand is very helpful* Canna brand nutes, canna A, canna B, and rhizotonic, 1 tsp per gal or so of each
What is the TDS/EC/PPM of your nutrients used? .8 to 1.2 EC
What is the pH of the "RUN-OFF"? 5.8 to 6
What method of pH test was administered? Using Strips? pH pen? milwaukee meter, 3 in 1
How often are you watering? every 3 days or so, after coco dries out
When was your last feeding and how often are you feeding? every week or so, but yesterday I fed a 1.0 EC of just canna "A" because I thought the light green color was nitrogen def, now it looks like they are showing more "burn/bright yellow" coloration
What size bulb are you using? 400 watt CMH. Just added 2 true 105 watt CFLs 5000k
What is the distance to the canopy? at least 2.5-3 ft
What is your RH Factor? (Relative Humidity)40
What is the canopy temperature?70F to 80F
What is the Day/Night Temp? (Include fluctuation range)
What is the current Air Flow? (cfm etc.) unknown, oscillating fan
Is the fan blowing directly at plants? yes, 24/7
Is the grow substrate constantly wet or moist? for a few days, then it dries, then i water
Is your water HARD or SOFT? very soft, 20-30PPM
What water are you using? Reverse Osmosis (RO)? Tap? Bottled? Well water? Distilled? Mineral Water? tap water
Has plant been recently pruned, cloned or pinched? no
Have any pest chemicals been used? If so what and when? no
Are plant's infected with pest's? no, but 3 days ago I noticed some very light algae growth on the very surface of the coco



this shows leaf curling


this shows light color, and discoloration around veins outward




another good vein discoloration



one of my few, deep dark healthy green plants, these two are hashberry




some more vein discoloration (and what I think is nute burn on the lower tip)





this is big bang, the pic doesn't do it justice, those brown splotches are actually very dark, not black, but dark, almost blend into the green (but not green), they have been getting worse



a stunted plant, very light green color




a pic showing multiple plants, mostly safari mix, though the two heavy sativa's you can see are haze x skunk #1 freebies, they were lighter green, but are getting their color back.





another multi plant pic, just to look at





Up until about 1 week ago, I did not have a EC/TDS/PH pen, and was going blind. At times my waterings may have been as high as a ph of 8.0, potentially even higher if I used only rhizotonic without nutes sometimes. By no means did I dump extreme amounts of canna "A" and canna "B" into my water or anything. For the first few weeks, they didn't even get any nutes, and were in soil, propagation trays. Seen here:




Now lets get down to business, I'm wondering if my canna coco isn't part of the problem, some runoff has been measuring quite high, even hit a 3.0 EC one time, though after some flushing, it came down to .5, 1 or 2 out of 10 of some new seedlings planted directly into coco seem to have some yellowing, which is odd considering I haven't fed them. I'm wondering what the runoff of virgin canna coco would be? Better yet what should it be?

So obviously there are some issues going on. Although the pics don't do justice, the easiest one I can see across all of the strains, is that many of the plants are not a healthy dark green. I thought this may have been nitrogen def, so I fed them yesterday with 1.0 EC of just canna coco A. Now it seems like they have some new "yellowing" splotches, which must be nute burn?

My question is this, what is likely causing the lack of color?

How do I get this back on track? About 1 week ago I flushed (about their container size to twice that in water) them with 5.8 PH water mixed with a tiny bit of rhizotonic.

Just let me know what you think, and I can supply more pics for a better look.

 

[1love1earth]

so I just hit a tray of safari mix with a flush, 18oz of water mix for 18oz keg cups.

The mix contained: rhizotonic, canna A, canna B, and came in at an EC of .15 and a PH of 6.0

The entire runoff was an EC of .5

Some individual runoff was as high as .8 for some, and those got flushed with another 4-8 oz of water mix

So we're moving onto the big bang, those dark splotches are now turning brown, as in dried out leaf brown, and it is worse.

Dunno what that could be, they just got transplanted into larger containers, which means more virgin canna coco. All I can think of is somehow the canna coco is hot, I'm going to run a test tomorrow and measure runoff from watering virgin canna coco with my 20PPM water. The seedlings are showing some discoloration as well. Maybe it is a nitrogen def. and not burning, but I dunno, I'm not expert, I'll post pics of them too.

 

[1love1earth]

Also hit the transplanted big bang with a flush, same mix.

Runoff from 2 gallons of water mix (3x 1 gal pots) measured out at 5.8PH and .8 EC

Initial (or first) EC of 1 cup of runoff was 1.15

More info on the splotches on the big bang, they start out dark, and quickly turn to brown/whitish dry.

 

[3dDream]

How often are you watering? every 3 days or so, after coco dries out

Coco needs to stay wet. Water every day or just keep it wet. I bottom feeds and it is really easy to flood a tray. Also, you might want to lower the food a little bit until they stabilize. Since your water is so low maybe you need cal-mag? I am not familiar w/ your nutes. Just my 2 cents, I am sure smarter people will answer.

 

[1love1earth]

More pics:

Safari mix (is it nute burn, or nitrogen def, or something else?)








Another safari mix








The big bang problem I was talking about above:

this one shows tips:





this one shows the actual splotches, as you can see it is getting heavy on this leaf.


A new lemon skunk seedling, about 1 week old, never fed NPK, only very light rhizotonic, yet is it burnt? in virgin canna coco





More seedlings showing the light green color, rather than deep dark green healthy color:






and some room pics just for you to look at:










I'm open to any and all suggestions.

 

[1love1earth]

so I just hit some seedlings with a little water, and measured the runoff.

The water was a tiny bit of rhizotonic, nutes A/B, balanced at PH 6.0, and EC .15

The runoff varied from .45 to .65 EC

So then, just for kicks, I took some dry virgin canna coco, about 12oz, and watered it with my 20PPM tap water.

The EC was a whopping 1.2

So the question is this, should canna coco be this hot to begin with? What the hell is making up the EC of 1.2 if I didn't put a damn thing into it except 20PPM water?

Or is this just normal?

 

[MynameStitch]

PLants are burned, stop using the rizotonic...... the amount you are using is burning them, not to mention with th at many strains you have I would be shocked as shit if you did not have a problem.... due to the fact strains have different tolerances to nute strength and such.....


I would stop using the Rizo, I have seen this problem many times with smaller plants...... flush the plants out and use smaller dosages.........your EC is outrgous for the size the plants are......


How much dosage are you using of each and when you feed do you use all of them? everytime?

 

[1love1earth]

the rhizotonic doesn't raise the PPMs/EC at all, only PH, which I can bring back down, so I figured it was safe.

Maybe I should back off?

Maybe it's the actual medium itself being hot, I have no idea what the runoff from unfertilized coco should be, as mine was 1.2

Either way, I've flushed and backed off, I really only fed an EC of 1.2 once, a few days ago of just Canna "A", and that's when burning seemed to really show. I thought the light green color was a nitrogen deficiency. Otherwise I fed them A/B 1 to 1, about 1 tsp per gallon, never anything crazy extreme.

However I do feed the rhizotonic regularly, probably 90% of the time, 1-4 tsp per gallon, last few days a bit lower, .5 tsp per gal or so. But again, it doesn't raise PPMs really at all, and only PH, at least by my meter, which is calibrated accurately against the calibration satchels.

Mind you however that my Tap water measures 20-30PPM, this is city tap.

The seedlings have only been fed with rhizotonic.

What about the big bang, the problems it is showing are quite different in appearance.

The heavier yellowing and burning did worsen after I fed the 1.2 EC of canna A.

I will back off on the rhizotonic. I figured it was quite safe to use, as it didn't raise the EC (maybe 20PPM at the very extreme), only the PH, which I balanced to 5.8-6.1

 

[MynameStitch]

too much root growth inhibits smaller plants it seems when used regulerly... even if the directions say so..... I have seen it happen way to mch and know what it looks like.


All it takes is once to burn a plant to make it loolk the way it is if the problem is not quickly fixed.

No, I am not saying it raises the ppms, it gives the plant amino acids and vitamins which the plant use small amounts of vitamins and a buildup causes NPK absorbtion problems.... back off the rizotonic for a bit until they fully heal and then use small aounts of it..... you are using way too much to begin with considering there size.....

use the canna a+b for now and just decrease the dosage a bit until they recover......

Your tap water is just fine to use for plants as long as your home does not have a built in water softner.... you have soft water......

 

[1love1earth]

no built in softener, just comes out that way.

I will def. back off on the rhizotonic.

what do you think for an EC?

Also, what about the runoff EC, especially on the unfertilized/unused coco? I'm wanting to make sure the medium itself isn't hot right out of the bag.

 

[1love1earth]

so today I flushed my seedlings with PH balanced water until I hit a runoff EC of .06, it started as high as .5 to .8, mind you these were never fertilized.

I also flushed my other plants, and will hit the larger ones with an EC of .7 mixed Canna A and B, smaller ones EC .4

Will the seedlings need some fertilizer? They are approaching 1 week old. What would a good EC be? I was thinking .1, but I'm not sure. Mind you my tap EC is .04

 

[1love1earth]

well, if it of any consequence, some plants had burning, yellowing on the tips of leafs working inward, sometimes dying at the edges, while other plants have yellow growth (uniform) on the leaves, starting from the bottom of the plant, and working upwards.

Some of my early girl and a few swiss miss are really looking terrible, not to say they were the best of the best to start, but they have the yellowing I described above, as opposed to obvious nute burn on the edges working inward.

Anyways, the plants in the larger pots are really happy, and already roots have grown to the bottom of the 3gal pot and out the holes.

Will be doing some major transplanting tomorrow or saturday.

LST'd some plants in 1 gal containers with thumbtacks and rubberbands, worked OK.

Otherwise the seedlings are still not 100%, but we'll see in the next week or so. I've noticed my actual seeds that've been planted in coco are taking a really long time to sprout in comparison to soil. Most at least had the shell cracked and some white showing before put into the coco.

 

[Guest]

Got any pics of the bigger plants?

 

[ChaosCatalunya]

I would agree with several others, stop using Rhizotonic, but also, NEVER use just A..........all A +B mixes are just that, you always use in equal doses of A and B .........GH and others have confused people with these adjustable mixes, while it is obviously separated into different parts for expert growers and is designed for use this way........Canna and most of the others make A and B separate because they "fight" chemically, not because they can be added as you think fit.

 

[1love1earth]

I would agree with several others, stop using Rhizotonic, but also, NEVER use just A..........all A +B mixes are just that, you always use in equal doses of A and B .........GH and others have confused people with these adjustable mixes, while it is obviously separated into different parts for expert growers and is designed for use this way........Canna and most of the others make A and B separate because they "fight" chemically, not because they can be added as you think fit.

I only did the A only dose once, just once, a few weeks ago, as I thought they were deficient in nitrogen, and A is high in nitrogen.

Anything from that got flushed out within 36 hours of the dose.

I'll take some updated pics right now.

I can tell things are really being held back by the keg cups. Not that they are extremely held back, but I can tell by the health of the few that got 3 gallon pots, they are really getting larger much more quickly.

The root growth 'seems solid'. I don't know if it is normal to have roots coming out of the bottom of the pots so quickly, as I transplanted the rootmass just under the surface of the pot, rather than real deep, hoping it would colonize the pot that much better.

The two skunk #1 x haze is looking nice as well, not big, but it has fully recovered from the "light green" color, and is nice deep green.

The early girl and swiss miss is what is by far looking unhealthy, not all of them, but more than a few. The yellowing starts at the lower leaves, and works its way up the plant.

 

[ChaosCatalunya]

I have noticed the effects of pot size too with my COCO babies, they often seem to become far happier when they get transplanted to something bigger, I have not done any tests, so it is just a feeling, but it is interesting you see the same.

I have always transplanted like you, just a tad under the surface of the COCO and, yes, root growth is rapid. A friend who "knows" plants of all types explained to me that in Pot Culture it is advisable to transplant into a succession of bigger pots and not straight into a big one, but I am still trying to work out what size is best, not sufficient, best, to start the girls in.

Interesting the experiences your mix has had, it just shows how different all the varieties can be.
Best of luck
CC

 

[1love1earth]

and different at different times,

right after the transplant, and right before, (they were started in soil propagation trays) the early girl and swiss miss were easily on the top, and big bang was struggling hard. Now big bang is doing OK, and the swiss miss/early girl is not on top, though there are some OK ones. Hashberry while not the largest, on a whole looks the healthiest percentage wise. Safari mix has the most number of healthy plants, but I also have at least 20 safari mix plants, maybe 30.

Seedlings are not looking as good as they did when started in soil. Again, they are also taking a loooong time to pop up after planted (pre germ'd so seeds were at least cracked and showing some white taproot).

Here are the pics:

These are some of my 1 gallon transplants before being LST'd (I also broke the stem on a big bang trying to LST, just pushed it a tad too far, didn't decapitate it, but came close, pushed the stem together, wrapped it real tight with plastic wrap, and tied it off with a twist tie, we'll take it off a week or so from now and see how it is doing.

Here's a pic showing the haze x skunk #1 front and center:



a safari mix in a 1gal:



The issue presenting on the lower big bang growth (but not the fresh shoots, yet):



and on the upper growth at the tips of the big bang:





3 gallon pot transplants, this one is safari, and probably my largest:





some unhealthy swiss miss and early girl:





a stunted swiss miss or early girl front and center:




I'll be doing a bunch of transplanting today/tomorrow, which means making more space somehow. I'm about ready to just dump the worst of the stunted plants outdoors around the town in parks. Maybe 25% of them won't get ripped.

 

[1love1earth]

maybe the safari mix are taking the smaller size container a bit better than the swiss miss and/or the early girl.

I'm definately going to go with 3 gallon pots, going to do the math on how many I'll transplant, and how much that's going to mean in coco.

I think it'll be at least 5 bags, if not more. Not cheap

Eventually to flower them, I'll have them in 5 gallon or larger pots. The main thing I'm wondering, how the hell do folks manage their runoff with pots that big?

I mean, the general consensus seems to be "15% runoff". Where exactly are you guys keeping a gallon of water per plant of runoff? What I've been doing is dragging my plants out of the room, and watering in a tray, and then dumping the tray, it's a real PITA.

Even if you have something to catch that runoff, the plant is just going to drink up whatever doesn't evaporate. Do you find that the 1 gallon of runoff is gone in between waterings?

So break it down for me coco folks, where the hell does the runoff go, and what the hell catches the runoff? I mean, we're talking a LOT of water at 1 gallon of runoff per plant (15% of 5 gallons is about 1 gallon).

I mean, trays or dishes aren't going to be nearly large enough, what is the common simple cheap and easy way of making this work?

 

[evilunclephil]

I had a couple plants I kept in keg cups longer than everything else this run, and they did the same thing and started going again within a week of putting them in a 3 gallon grow bag.

 

[zoolander]

You are killin your plants with the Rhizotonic so early, and this is from experience on my part. Stitch was on the money. If you wanna feed your plants so early start with 2ML of A+B per gallon and the plants will let you know when to bump it up. The next issue you will have is mag deficiency which you can solve with cal-mag. I think its best to let the mag problem show and then treat it since you can see a huge difference within days of usein cal-mag and treatin them to soon and young seems to create alot of problems on young plants. This is just what I went thru in Coco and learned and I hope it can help you with the other help everyone has provided here Also what I do for runoff is get a jug and a turkey baster and as the water comes out and fill the tray I suck it up and into the jug and dump outside. If you look in my gallery evey plant was grown in coco