Organics and Ph.

[Dignan]

I also think that assumptions are often made in this debate that essentially castrate the discussion. We tend to read through and think that everyone posting is either from the pH Team or the Non-pH Team, which is a gross oversimplification. We have people on here who are growing hydro, people growing soilless, people growing in peat-based soil or coco-based soil... we have people using nothing but dry ferts premixed into their soil, then others like Cannabis Composer who are working with bottled ferts or strong nutrient teas.

In my opinion, comparing many of these things to each other is like comparing apples and oranges. I rarely add liquid ferts/teas, for instance. I am of the opinion that my soil, once blended and then after it "cooks" for a while and is then populated by a plant's roots, has a sort of homeostasis or equillibrium that it reaches... it becomes a big pH buffering mass of magic. So that's context I'm speaking in when I chime in here, just for instance. I'm adding nothing but water and compost teas. I'm not "nuking" my soil all of a sudden with ANYTHING that could possibly, remotely be anywhere outside of a pH range of... oh, say 5.5-7.5.

I know B1's experience is that a pH range way outside of that will be buffered by the soil, but I haven't tried that. When I say, "Make it easy on yourself and don't bother measuring pH," I am always assuming I'm speaking to people who have enough sense to NOT be mixing up things that end up at a pH of 4.5 or 9. This may be judgmental on my part, but shit... anyone who is adding anything to their soil that is on the extreme ends of that pH range needs to go to the library and pick up a book about Gardening 101. What are you adding, Vinegar and Baking Soda Tea?

I'm speaking to the reasonable growers who have at some point assessed their soil, its constituents and their ratios... maybe measure pH runoff at some point (though from what I've seen over the years, measuring pH runoff is unreliable at best, misleading at its worst)... and most importantly that the person is working from a water source they have measured both the pH and ppm of and have verified isn't variable over the course of a year.

Once a gardener has established those very simple things, there is no need to measure pH.... Unless you are trying really, really hard to grow the best cannabis the world has ever seen.

Which is what many like Crazy Composer and TomHill are doing... and while I think doing that is commendable and is a killer hobby that benefits all types of growers, we all need to realize that not everyone is growing with that end result in mind.

In fact, I bet 90% of the people who learn to grow are perfectly happy with growing great organic buds that stand head and shoulders above the commercial they would otherwise have to buy off the black market. Most of us are trying to grow excellent buds that require a minimal investment of our $$$. We're not trying to be cutting-edge trailblazers in the cannabis cultivation world.

MoHo

*I like to go back and edit my posts before hitting send usually, to modify my choice of words to best convey where I'm coming from (i.e. to not offend anyone unintentionally) but I have to rush to work so I can't do it this time. I'll assume everyone knows where I'm coming from. You all rock and I appreciate the discussions!

 

[Dignan]

Let's see if this will work.

Fair enough?

Directed at me? ^^^

 

[Clackamas Coot]

Directed at me? ^^^

Oh God no! Not in the least.

Sorry for any misunderstanding.

CC

 

[swampdank]

alot of information has been exposed in this thread. i think its cool to see where everybody stands.

it also helps make an informed decision.

 

[Dignan]

Oh God no! Not in the least.

Sorry for any misunderstanding.

CC

OK, just wanted to be sure I wasn't ignoring a question you were asking me specifically.

Dig

 

[Clackamas Coot]

OK, just wanted to be sure I wasn't ignoring a question you were asking me specifically.

Dig

Dig

LOL

Actually I did write an email and received a very detailed response. I thought that it was rather kind for someone to not only respond but to do so in the same day meant that they really went out of their way.

The problem in posting it is that I'm afraid that the ol' canard about 'Yeah, so what? Has this been tested with growing cannabis? That's completely different from growing other plants!' blah, blah, blah, blah...........

Plus its hard not to admit the entertainment value of this thread so far. Claims of 100 lb. grows using soil costing 'thousands and thousands of dollars' - oh my! All completely controlled and monitored using high-tech PH meters!

Claims about people being 'attacked' simply because their rather outrageous claims aren't swallowed hook, line & sinker.

Some of this is actually better stuff than what you hear with a bunch of testerone-laden stud-muffins in a bar. "My dick's bigger than your dick!" "No way! Look!" with the obligatory zipper sound in the background.

And there's this to ponder: Some fungai trade nutrients for exudates, but most often nutrients are released as waste after they are consumed by fungi or when the fungi die and are decayed. Mush of what is released is nitrogen. A key tenet of gardeing with the soil food web is that plants can take up nitrogen in two forms, either as ammonium ions (NH4 +) or as nitrate ions (NH3 -). The nitrogen released by fungi is in ammonium dorm (NH4 -). If nitrifying bacteria are present, this is converted in two steps to nitrate (NO3 -)

The enzymes produced by fungai are decidely acidic and lower the PH. Remember that bacterial slime raises soil PH nitrogen-fixing bacteria generally require a PH above 7. As soils become dominated by fungai, the populations of nitrogen-fixing bacteria required to convert ammonium into nitrates diminish because the PH is lowered by the acids the fungi produce. More ammonium therefore remains as plant-available ammonium instead of being converted to nitrates.

This certainly has important implications for big-time growers who spend thousands and thousands of dollars on soils to grow 100 lbs. a year. Just think of the number of technicians required to monitor, by the hour, the peaks and valleys of their soil's PH. Wee!

And then if the 'big time grow' (using thousands and thousands of super-duper soil) is in an area where 'acid rain' is a factor then the labor costs really sky-rocket! To completely protect their expensive soil it probably requires a brigade or two of undocumented Central American immigrants holding umbrellas in their hands, hanging onto catwalks that have been put in place - God knows what it takes to pull off 'the big grow'

The cost to house, feed and clothe all of these workers and STILL remain unknown to LEO is a feat indeed! But when you're pulling off 'the big grow' and you've already invested 'thousands and thousands of dollars' in the soil - WTF, eh?

Back to acid rain - it would be helpful to seek the available information about how 'acid rain' effects a soil's PH - which it directly does not. When PH-Meter Mike figure out that part then it's pretty easy to figure out the absurdity of sticking a probe into the soil every hour to give him something to worry about not to mention giving PH-Meter Mike something to blather on and on about.

Wee!

CC

 

[swampdank]

good point CC. i see the logic in having tested your soil. but what if you tapwater is abnormally high(or low) ph? how would one find out? trust the water company reports? nah. use rainwater? well that was an idea till the acid rain angle was introduced. it's hard for somebody who doesnt know everything there is to know about growing pot to make a decision on which direction to go.

so, how do i diagnose a ph problem in my garden? how will i know if the microlife are doing their job correctly? is there a way to be certain that my compost tea and ammendments are at the correct levels? trial and error? sorry if i come off as having a rebuttle but my whole reson for starting this thread was for information to improve my garden. seeking knowledge always.

feel free to flame me if you must, just try to give a solid answer to my questions as they are genuine.

 

[B.C.]

Mg and Ca need to be in balance in the soil, if too much Ca is unavailable the first symptoms may very well look like Mg def. So ya add some epsom next watering...now you've really thrown off the Ca/Mg balance making things even worse...leaving a new grower dumbfounded by his inablility to solve a "simple" mag def. I don't buy into being able to add anything from 4-9pH to your soil, occasionally is fine...but if your base water is like mine at 7.8 and that's all you give'em they die on me. If I use a base water like r/o or rain with a good starting pH of 6.5, and feed with teas with an unknown pH, everything seems to be fine.
Rcky

That's a very good point you made about the Mg and Ca, but iron (Fe) needs ta be included as well. Hence cal mag plus iron. Classic problem for new growers that's hard fer em ta understand. It's good you brought it up! The great thing about organics and soil high in humic content is that it allows the uptake of most these micro nutes (including Ca, Mg, and Fe ) in higher volumes that would have otherwise been unavailable...... I would like ta also point out that if yer only bubbling yer teas fer only 24 hours, I can almost guarantee ya the ph of those teas are out of the optimum ph range, so at that point, what difference does yer starting water ph make ? No offence, but what's the point? BC

 

[Dignan]

Alkalive Test Strips. Accurate to within +/- .1 and cost $7 for a pack of like 150 strips. I got those AFTER I went through two Hanna pH meters. They're easier, cheaper, more reliable and in most cases more accurate (because it's very difficult to keep a pH probe sufficiently clean that it remains calibrated for very long).

 

[B.C.]

The pot calling the kettle black. LOL!

The pot calling the kettle black. LOL!

Dig





The problem in posting it is that I'm afraid that the ol' canard about 'Yeah, so what? Has this been tested with growing cannabis? That's completely different from growing other plants!' blah, blah, blah, blah...........



Some of this is actually better stuff than what you hear with a bunch of testerone-laden stud-muffins in a bar. "My dick's bigger than your dick!" "No way! Look!" with the obligatory zipper sound in the background.



WeeWee!

CC

Mr. Coot, Clackamas, buddy, lol are you still whinnin about that other thread? Don't you think that useing plants that don't stretch to begin with is kinda of an unfair test for a plant that -does- have a natural stretch phase in it's life cycle? May yer common sense prevail, and you except it. lol This is where real hands on experience shines. You know that ol' canard, it's somethin ya can't read it ina book! lol........I think it's funny you think it's others that are causing the testerone-laiden attitude. When yer post many times are so sarcastic they are beyond reproach, look at the one I'm quoting from now! lol You have a -lot- to offer this community, but you seem ta have a real hard-on fer makin folks look and feel like idiots. Why? Maybe cause you think yer pee-wee is bigger? LOL!!! Yer a real hoot Coot. Seriously, I'm glad yer here, yuv opened my eyes to a few things I didn't see before. Thank you! Take care...BC

 

[buggsuperstar]

Dig


Back to acid rain - it would be helpful to seek the available information about how 'acid rain' effects a soil's PH - which it directly does not.

CC

Cooter, I couldn't swallow this claim "hook, line and sinker" as some people say so I did a search on yahoo which took me no more than 35 seconds and I came across this. It's from a soil fertility specialist at Clemson Univeristy.

FACTORS AFFECTING SOIL pH

The pH value of a soil is influenced by the kinds of parent materials from which the soil was formed. Soils developed from basic rocks generally have higher pH values than those formed from acid rocks.

Rainfall also affects soil pH. Water passing through the soil leaches basic nutrients such as calcium and magnesium from the soil. They are replaced by acidic elements such as aluminum and iron. For this reason, soils formed under high rainfall conditions are more acidic than those formed under arid (dry) conditions.

Application of fertilizers containing ammonium or urea speeds up the rate at which acidity develops. The decomposition of organic matter also adds to soil acidity.

I don't know if this is a "direct" enough relationship for you between rainfall and ph, or possibly you are more qualified than this individual, but I thought it could add to discussion.

Bugg

 

[Dignan]

That passage is saying that the amount of rainfall can affect pH... not that the pH of the rain is affecting pH. It's a function of the rainfall flushing things out of soil rather than a small amount of rainfall changing the soil's pH. Just wanted to point that out.

 

[Mr Celsius]

Its essentially talking about how soil was formed. I wish you guys would goto your community college and take a soil class, I'm sure all of you would love it and you could finally settle this argument.

Parent material is formed out of a combination or single type/s of rock/s; Igneous, Metamorphic and sedimentary. Considering each type of rock is formed in drastically different ways, its going to have different mineral and therefor different ph profiles. For example, limestone is a sedimentary rock and is formed in places that were once ocean beds. It has a lot of calcium and magnesium with an alkaline ph, because the rock is formed from fossilized shells of sea creatures.

Acid rain can effect ph... but this is a rarity. Now alluvial soils can have their ph's effected by rain, simply because the particles are so small that they get washed away easily. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alluvial

 

[buggsuperstar]

Hang on here, are you saying that all water has the exact same amount of iron and aluminum? If not, than depending on the levels of the specific water you are using, there will be more or less of these acid elements left in the soil which would correspondingly change the PH. Unless this is only talking about the formation of soil over much longer period of time.

Take a college course? I am already studying mechanical engineering and anyways it's much more enjoyable to discuss it online. Maybe you can start a thread Celsius. I'll be your first student.

 

[Suby]

volume plays a very important role in ph,and it speaks volume....also wat works best is,has alot to do with wat u feed it,same goes with foliar feed and ph....moon/

I missed this post the first time, I'm not sure we are on the same page but IMO soil volume/plant size ratio is also an important factor.

Much like hydro growing in too small a reservoir growing in too small a volume of soil is going to make things difficult for both the plant and soil biology.

I have found organics to be more "forgiving" to rootbound plants but personally I transplant before the roots start to spin too much, I determine this by how often I am watering, when I'm down to every 3-4 days I know it's time.

I like to grow bush style, i veg until I get a bushy 2 ft plant in 2 gallons of veg mix soil, then I transplant to 5gallons of flowering soil mix and veg another week, then flower.

The more medium you have the more buffering and stability you get, you want very slow changes in soil conditions with organics.
This is why outdoor organics are so popular, the roots reach deep into a huge mass of soil.
I've grown huge plants in small volumes of soil with little problems but I get better results with more soil, even by the end of flowering the roots haven't "bound" too tightly and I can use the soil again anyway.



S

 

[Guest]

So you might say all things on earth are interconnected? Kind of a web of life. Thats an interesting concept

 

[rckymtnthuglife]

That's a very good point you made about the Mg and Ca, but iron (Fe) needs ta be included as well. Hence cal mag plus iron. Classic problem for new growers that's hard fer em ta understand. It's good you brought it up! The great thing about organics and soil high in humic content is that it allows the uptake of most these micro nutes (including Ca, Mg, and Fe ) in higher volumes that would have otherwise been unavailable...... I would like ta also point out that if yer only bubbling yer teas fer only 24 hours, I can almost guarantee ya the ph of those teas are out of the optimum ph range, so at that point, what difference does yer starting water ph make ? No offence, but what's the point? BC

I bubbled tap water for 24hrs to get the chlorine out. I usually brew a "tea" for at least 2-3 days and I simply top off whatever I use for a few weeks or so...or until it doesn't smell right. Then I'll clean everything and bubble tapwater for 24hrs...then i'll add ewc,guano etc.

The point I was trying to make about Mg and Ca lockouts caused by using phosphoric acid as pH down (which is not organic) so no matter what your humus content and potential uptake of Mg and Ca, the phosphoric acid will cause lockout making it unavailable.

I mentioned this because new growers can be doing everything else right as far as a simple organic setup is concerned and then ruin it by adjusting their pH with phosphoric acid. I was that new grower and I thought I would share a mistake I personally have made in the past. While still unnecessary given the right soil mix and a quality water supply citric acid or lemon juice will not cause the same problems. Not to mention, the microbes will be alot happier.

As far as what difference does starting pH make?

Well as far as I can tell, IME, If I make a batch of LC's base mix, activated with ewc,molasses, humic acid tea, and left to compost for two weeks. Then if I water with plain tap water at 7.8 pH and 262ppm chock full of Ca and Mg, my seedlings die. If I use r/o water or snow or rain...all of which are around 6.5 for myself anyway, my plants thrive. I believe this is due to the fact the peat has had long to break down and is not acidic enough yet to handle the 2tbs of lime, adding the tapwater is essentially like adding more lime to the soil...too much. I've cut myself down to 1tbs of lime per gal and I have no problem using straight tapwater in flower...but I still refrain on using it for the little ones. Trial and Error.
Rcky

 

[Suby]

Yeah Rocky

I've always said if your growing organic then go all organic, organic apple cider vinegar also works well to acidify.

I've also cut down to about 1 TBS of the dolomite, and I don't use any for seedlings, I always found the PM had enough.

S

 

[B.C.]

Rocky, I understand now. The first post made it seem like you only bubbled fer 24 hours:"even when bubbled for 24 hours" was what you said. lol nevermind, I see what ya meant now, my bad! lol...... I understood what you were sayin about the phosphoric acid too. I spose if you did use -enough- it would lock out cal causing a chain reaction of lock outs. My idea was more along the lines of for whatever reason, if one gets locked out, or there's not enough of anyone em, it effects all of them. Which would make the new grower think he should add more, only to add insult to injury by throwin the balance off even more. Thanks fer clarifying tho, it was a very good post. Take care...BC

 

[swampdank]

so, what would a soil mix contain to make sure the ph is where it should be? with so many different mixes out there, they all cant have that perfect ph.

am i getting this right? if the microherd is working properly, the ph will be optimal? so those who do not use ph meters are quite positive that their ph is where it should be?
with so many opinions about meters, it seems that some may be omitting the trial and error portion of their expiriences and only adding that they dont need to monitor ph because these little microscopic fairies make sure all is well.

i dont buy it. there has to be some kind of relationship, a balance that has to be achieved in order to have a worry free garden.

what do we do? add lime, make a tea and cross our fingers?