Pebbled Dolomite Lime...

[Dignan]

No, though I read differently all the time. Prilled dolo lime should be used exactly the same way and in exactly the same amounts as powdered dolo lime is. They will behave the same way within the soil mix as soon as the clay begins to dissolve, which happens as soon as moisture is added.

I do have a friend who swears by prilled lime because he believes it creates mini-zones within the soil mix... where a pellet sits and then dissolves, the dolo lime will effect the surround area. He does the same with most of his amendments, by the way. He believes that allowing for these variable zones within your soil mix allows the plants' roots and the various forms of microbes, nematodes, fungi, etc. (who all prefer varying pH and nutrient ranges) to find their preferred zone, as opposed to mixing your soil amendments all globally, which creates one single environment within the container with a universal nutrient content throughout and a universal pH throughout.

His argument is that a soil mix that is globally mixed will automatically cater to a much narrower range of biology. And it gives plants' roots no "choice" of environment.

 

[Guest]

No, though I read differently all the time. Prilled dolo lime should be used exactly the same way and in exactly the same amounts as powdered dolo lime is. They will behave the same way within the soil mix as soon as the clay begins to dissolve, which happens as soon as moisture is added.

I do have a friend who swears by prilled lime because he believes it creates mini-zones within the soil mix... where a pellet sits and then dissolves, the dolo lime will effect the surround area. He does the same with most of his amendments, by the way. He believes that allowing for these variable zones within your soil mix allows the plants' roots and the various forms of microbes, nematodes, fungi, etc. (who all prefer varying pH and nutrient ranges) to find their preferred zone, as opposed to mixing your soil amendments all globally, which creates one single environment within the container with a universal nutrient content throughout and a universal pH throughout.

His argument is that a soil mix that is globally mixed will automatically cater to a much narrower range of biology. And it gives plants' roots no "choice" of environment.

Dignan:

Your friend's theory is interesting but way off base IMO. IMO, soil amendments like lime, guanos , etc. should be thoroughly mixed into the soil. Moreover, I like to screen amendments like EWC's and guanos that are "lumpy" so that they will incorporate better. I seive my prilled lime and use the fines.

My feeling, and I've been taught this my whole life and it's the advice I have gotten from a number of VERY GOOD people in horticulture and nursery folks.... is this

Soil amendments need to be distributed evenly throughout the soil mix. This avoids any "hot spots" or "voids". A big lump of guano will likely burn the roots nearby. What sense does that make? And an area that is void in an important amendment(s)...What good is that for the plant? Just wasted space in the pot.

As for plants roots seeking out their best environment the way he describes? Frankly I think that is bullshit.

I've been growing things as an adult for 40 years. I've never heard a good plant grower, nurseryman, or anyone say anything other than:

"Mix your soil amendments in your soil THOROUGHLY.

pedro

 

[Dignan]

If you'd care to discuss it with him, visit the Skunk Magazine forums and look up rolanterroy, the Cultivation Editor. He's always more than happy to discuss his methods with others. All I ask as a good friend of his is that you keep it mellow and respectful. He's open to learning from other good people and, who knows, you may even learn a couple new things.

Peace-

Dignan

 

[Clackamas Coot]

For even 'wannabe' nursery growers - say 1,000 plants a season for resale to Home Depot, KMart, your local nursery store, et al. - just enough to qualify for the killer land taxes being based on 'farm property' vs. having a 5 acre estate - soil preparation & mixing is the biggest part of the process.

And if you're that small, like our home, you have to rent a soil mixer at the beginning of the season to accomplish. We'll be doing that next week as it's been delayed due to unusually cold weather this winter and spring.

The smallest commercial soil mixer that you can rent at the wholesale nursery supply houses are ones that handles 1 cubic yard or 27 cubic feet which is about 27 5-gallon pots - assuming that my math is correct.

So let's go back to the Burn1/LC soil mix and since this thread is about Pebbled Dolomite Lime, I'll stick with that. I'm going on memory here but the soil mix calls for something like 4 tablespoons (or approximately 2 ounces) of dolomite lime per 5-gallon container.

So that would mean that the total amount of dolomite lime needed to match the Burn1/LC soil mix for 1 cubic yard would be 108 tablespoons or just under 3.5 lbs - total.

To get a complete and thorough soil mix would take an act of God - literally. Even if you used the time & effort that the hobby cannabis grower might use, getting a complete & thorough mix would still be challenging.

If you want precise amounts of amendments or fertilizers per specific container then top-dressing is your best option. That's probably the reason that so much of the feeding of nursery plants is accomplished via foliar feeding. It's more consistent, less fertilizers are required, it provides more even application, uses far less labor, etc.

Dignan's friend is correct. Plants do search out specific nutrients via the microherd. Trying to achieve layers or zones is probably impossible to effect precisely in a container but at the end of the day that is exactly what happens, intended or not.

CC

 

[Guest]

For even 'wannabe' nursery growers - say 1,000 plants a season for resale to Home Depot, KMart, your local nursery store, et al. - just enough to qualify for the killer land taxes being based on 'farm property' vs. having a 5 acre estate - soil preparation & mixing is the biggest part of the process.

And if you're that small, like our home, you have to rent a soil mixer at the beginning of the season to accomplish. We'll be doing that next week as it's been delayed due to unusually cold weather this winter and spring.

The smallest commercial soil mixer that you can rent at the wholesale nursery supply houses are ones that handles 1 cubic yard or 27 cubic feet which is about 27 5-gallon pots - assuming that my math is correct.

So let's go back to the Burn1/LC soil mix and since this thread is about Pebbled Dolomite Lime, I'll stick with that. I'm going on memory here but the soil mix calls for something like 4 tablespoons (or approximately 2 ounces) of dolomite lime per 5-gallon container.

So that would mean that the total amount of dolomite lime needed to match the Burn1/LC soil mix for 1 cubic yard would be 108 tablespoons or just under 3.5 lbs - total.

To get a complete and thorough soil mix would take an act of God - literally. Even if you used the time & effort that the hobby cannabis grower might use, getting a complete & thorough mix would still be challenging.

If you want precise amounts of amendments or fertilizers per specific container then top-dressing is your best option. That's probably the reason that so much of the feeding of nursery plants is accomplished via foliar feeding. It's more consistent, less fertilizers are required, it provides more even application, uses far less labor, etc.

Dignan's friend is correct. Plants do search out specific nutrients via the microherd. Trying to achieve layers or zones is probably impossible to effect precisely in a container but at the end of the day that is exactly what happens, intended or not.

CC

Look, I'm not a fool. If you believe, that I believe, one can make a "homogeneous" soil mix....well of course not. That's not what I meant by thorough mixing. And I'm sure that's not what is meant by thousands of nurseymen across the country. But as you pointed out, folks in and out of the business make every effort to mix soils as well as they can.

That is my point.

As for the micro environments within a soil mix. Sure they exist. They aren't static though. However, It's not like this little piece of lime has it's own little microenvironment for the duration of the grow. Every time water is applied, all those tiny microenvironments change. pH is not uniform throughout the soil mix. Nutrients are much the same.

And if dignan's friend means that within say 1 cubic mm of soil( even though a microenvironment could be much smaller), root hairs will try to go where the moisture/nutes are, sure. That's absolutely true.

Maybe dignan misstated his friend's position, or I misunderstood it. I dunno. From my perspective, it appeared that he was making the case that one didn't need to thoroughly mix amendments into their soils because the roots would seek out areas where water/nutrients/pH were ideal. And as I said, I don't know any responsible grower who doesn't at least try to thoroughly incorporate dry amendments into their soil

Are we in agreement yet?

pedro

 

[Clackamas Coot]

Pedro

Of course we're in agreement, i.e. that a good nurseryman makes every attempt to get their soils mixed the best that they can.

I was trying to explain the complexities involved in preparing nursery soils in even small volumes like a single cubic yard. Oviously I was not doing a very good job of explaining it.

Back to the subject of adding dolomite lime to the ProMix line of products (they're not readily available around here so that's why I'm asking). I use the Sunshine organic mixes which includes dolomite lime.

Assuming that ProMix also adds some amount of dolomite lime to their products, is that amount insufficient for container growing? Does adding more lime to the basic mix act as an insurance policy?

Just curious.

 

[Guest]

Pedro

Of course we're in agreement, i.e. that a good nurseryman makes every attempt to get their soils mixed the best that they can.

I was trying to explain the complexities involved in preparing nursery soils in even small volumes like a single cubic yard. Oviously I was not doing a very good job of explaining it.

Back to the subject of adding dolomite lime to the ProMix line of products (they're not readily available around here so that's why I'm asking). I use the Sunshine organic mixes which includes dolomite lime.

Assuming that ProMix also adds some amount of dolomite lime to their products, is that amount insufficient for container growing? Does adding more lime to the basic mix act as an insurance policy?

Just curious.

Promix, and there are different versions of it aren't sold around here either. The mix I use is a local/geional potting mix and I know for a fact it doesn't have lime. I talked to the place that makes it. They don't add lime because most people are using it in gardens etc. and the local soil is very alkaline. You rarely see bags of lime for sale. Everyone here sells sulfur products for acidifying soils.

My understanding od ProMix is that while it may be limed, it isn't enough for growing weed. Repeated watering and plant growth use up the lime or leach it out. If I were using Promix, I'd add 1Tbls/gallon just to be sure. I'm sure there is a point where you can add too much lime, but 1-2 Tbls/gallon is not going to "overlime" any commercial soil mix....at least IMO.

Soil chemistry is incredibly complex, especially organic soils. I don't pretend to be an expert on it by any stretch. I will say that it seems that many folks on ICMAG really don't understand the importance of lime in their soil. I believe it is critcal to a good trouble free grow. I laso have the same feelings about watering technique. How to water correctly is another area that neeeds some discussion...but thats for another thread. )))

Thanks for the repsonse.

I hope Dignan understands where I'm coming from as well. I apologize for any misunderstanding on my part.

pedro

 

[Dignan]

Yup, I understand where you're coming from. You guys seem interested enough that, if it were me, I'd want to ask the grower some questions. This is a guy who has grown on a large scale for 30 years and his background in horticulture is solid. You can't argue with his results.

I don't use his methods but what I have taken from the 'research' he's done is that I no longer worry at all about mixing my nutrients into my soil globally. I'll give it a few stirs but the moment my arm gets tired, "meh, that's good enough." Which is pretty much how Mother Nature does it and she's my favorite horticulture professor.

Seriously, gents. We've PMed about this, but I still would encourage you to go ask rolanterroy a few questions, if you're this interested. We're all here to learn from one another.

Peace-

Dig

 

[Guest]

Hey Dignan,

I think we're back on the same page even if we disagree about the finer points.

I think I misinterpreted your stating of his position.

I really do think you should mix amendments in well. BUT, as they say, there's lots of ways to skin a cat

Roll one up!!

Back to work till 4-5PM or so here.

Thanks for being civilized about all this!! It's nice to deal with "grownups" on here!!

Later
Pedro

And yes, I may ask him some questions. One thing you learn as you get old like me is that "humility" IS a virtue

 

[Clackamas Coot]

Dignan & Pedro

If you ever get out to Oregon you'll have to make a point to visit some of the larger commercial nursery operations. Many are hundreds of acres in size.

Most of those have their own commercial mixing machines assuming that they don't buy bulk soil mixes from companies like SunGro Horticultural up in Canada (Sunshine Mix, Black Gold, several professional mixes only sold in bulk).

In addition to those private operations there are 4 or 5 places where you can either bring your ingredients to them and they will mix and bag the product for a 'per cf.' price. Obviously it costs less per bagged cf. if you're having 3 yards done vs. a single yard. Generally it runs about $1.25 per bag using your ingredients.

Watching the actual time that the ingredients actually stay inside the mixer isn't all that long to be honest. They've got production schedules to meet, other customers waiting, etc.

Creating custom soil blends has become somewhat of a cottage industry in the valley and several of them are actually very good.

The point is that you're probably better off mixing amendments like dolomite lime, kelp meal, et al. separately for each actual pot of soil. Having it done, even with professional soil mixers and baggers, is at best a hit and a miss.

Interesting process to watch.

CC

 

[Dignan]

That does sound interesting. (rolanterroy lives in coastal OR, incidentally.)

I hesitate to compare what we cannabis growers do to what large-scale commercial nursery operations do, though. For one thing, I bet that even if it were proven that mixing soil in "zones" rather than globally were beneficial, I doubt these larger operations would find the benefits to be worth the considerable amount of additional labor that would be required to layer your soils in this manner for 5,000 saplings. I bet they'd continue to mix globally because it's easy... and it works.

It's much more feasible on the smaller scale that most of us here grow. Commercial operations go out of their way to simplify their processes while your average cannabis grower, as we see every day online, will go out of their way to complicate things.

pedro- Thanks for keeping it civil. We learn nothing on these cannabis forums when we treat each other badly. And learning is why I'm here. More importantly, disrespect tears a community apart.

I most likely am misrepresenting rolanterroy's methods somewhat... but he posts it all up for the world to see on the Sk forums. Including nice pics of how he layers his soil, etc. Interesting stuff.

 

[Guest]

I generally agree with Dignan...and not because he pays me to say good things about him lol. BTW...you missed this month's payment.

Do you need to feed nutes in layes, zones, spikes or top dressing? No. Does it affect how the root structure develops? Yes. If there is a hot spot the roots will basically avoid that spot and find a comfortable 'zone' a bit further away. Plants are pretty smart and highly adaptable.

As for Rev...the guy is kind of an organics geek with his microscope and all. After 30 years of growing he's ended up with organics in soil. Even after all that time he's constantly experimenting, tearing apart root balls, reading boring books about fungus and can tell a good story now and then. The shark one was pretty wild LOL.

 

[Guest]

Hey Dignan and NonDual:

Looks like I will have to talk to him. I love this stuff. I'm not a purist when it comes to organics. My ideas are more in line with folks like "Suby" on here. In my present living situation, I can't have buckets of teas and so forth. So I do EJ and PBP. Obviously I'm not beholden to OMRI either. I do what my own education and experience tell me is correct. As I said, I've been growing things for over 40 years, but I'm new to cannabis growing. I had an aborted hydro grow back in 88-89. My wife blah blah. Now that problem is gone(divorce) I can do what I want, and do. Anyway, cannabis is an interesting plant in many ways as we all know. It is also like MANY other flowering annuals in that it has some specific requirements. I'm having fun applying what I have learned over the years to growing weed. The "fine tuning" or "dialing in" aspects are something I am still zeroing in on....and probably will for time to come.

Talking about Rev and microscopes. I've been looking around pawn shops and such for a good used one. I want to look at trichomes better for one thing. I love looking at "shit" under scopes. I had access to some really GOOD scopes in my other life back east. I'd love to have one now.

Later guys!!

pedro

 

[Guest]

Hey Pedro...for one I have not even played with teas yet and are not really necessary IMO. When I switched from chem hydro to organics in soil I went with dry amendments and dilute waterings of Liquid Karma, seaweed extract and occasionally some molasses. I also did a few waterings, just the top 2" or so, with a concentrated solution of yucca extract for the fungi. My yield and quality was awesome.

PBP and EJ can easily produce very high quality herb. I don't consider my self a purist but decided to do the organic thing 100%.

 

[Dignan]

It's hard to find any dolo lime around here... not impossible, but very difficult. There are probably 10 places in town (nurseries, Wal Stores, Home DePOT, etc.) where I would hope to find it. Only 2-3 of them ever carry dolomite lime and it's only seasonally, when they are stocked up well in the Spring.

But one of them sells a 25# bag of powdered, which I always intend to buy but never have the bread. I can usually pilfer a bag of Epsoma brand prilled from somewhere when I need it.

Speaking of, I picked up a bag the other day and decided to test my theories and take a few pics. My understanding of the prilled lime I buy is that it's normal, powdered lime that has been rolled into small clay pellets for easier broadcasting. And if you put this lime (or the Lilly Miller brand, which is what I used to buy a couple years ago) into water, the clay dissolves almost instantly. Not instantly but... well, check this out:

Epsoma brand Lime...




Dropped some pellets into a wine glass...




3-4 minutes later...




90 minutes later...

 

[yeknomssa]

nice little test, dignan. makes me feel a little more secure about using prilled lime when necessary

 

[Dignan]

Glad to help put you at ease. The other thing that might help you feel better is that I've used prilled lime for the past 3-4 years successfully. I recycle my soil and when mixing my soil, I prefer to use my bare hands and rub them together to break the soil aggregates up ... and I have never run across an undissolved lime pellet in my used soil after a grow.

::

http://hubcap.clemson.edu/~blpprt/acidity2_review.html (good page, by the way)

Because high quality, finely ground limestone is very dusty and difficult to spread, some companies market a "prilled" or "granular" limestone for home use. A small amount of clay or a polymer is added to the ground limestone so small prills are formed instead of dust. This makes it easier to spread by hand or with a garden fertilizer spreader. Once applied, soil moisture will cause the "prills" or "granules" to dissociate and disperse the limestone particles. The limestone can then react with exchangeable acidity in the following manner:

Dignan

 

[charlesweedmore]

i dont understand.

if dolomite lime dissolves in water in about 90 minutes,that means the dolomite lime would be ok for us ?