Is this a Virus problem ? Please help

[l33t]

Hi all I am experiencing a wierd problem with some of my Mango Haze plants.

Fro the info I found so far by asking people around it seems that it looks like a virus problem (mosaic /tobacco virus perhaps)

Here are some pics:







I had just one that showed the problem but it keeps spreading among the population , atm I have 4-5 affected plants and I start to worry.

Can you please help identify the problem and advise on any possible treatment.Or perhaps I may have to toss the affected plants..

All comments and advise is welcome.Thanks in advance

 

[HeadyPete]

Looks like a variegation.....

Plants bearing such variegation are chimeras, with more than one type of genetic makeup in their tissues. A lack of chlorophyll producing tissue in some tissues causes variegation with white or yellow coloured zones on the leaf, contrasting with the usual green tissue. It is due to some of the plant’s meristematic tissue losing the ability to produce chloroplasts, so that the tissue it produces is no longer green.

This can also be cause by virus or other factors, you can read more here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Variegated

I'd let it grow and see what happens. If it is a virus there is no treatment. The affected plants must be destroyed.

Are all the affected plants clones of the same mom?

 

[Guest]

I gotta ask something pretty obvious, but do you have any really fine web like shit around the stalks and under the leaves?

From a distance and first glance, - that looks like a world record spider mite infestation

Can you get some better picts? your pictures are like asking a doctor for a diagnosis from across the desk. The devil is in the details and the detail could use some help.

Also more info - grow conditions

 

[stinkyattic]

It looks viral to me as well. Treat immediately for pests- go all out- set off a PAIR of bug bombs spaced 2-3 days apart. Insects will act as vectors for the disease, if indeed it is one, to spread.

The only other culprit I can think is even possible is a period of extremely high pH at some point in the plant's development- and this is really going out on a limb here, but I have seen plants, exposed to untreated new hydroton combined with a crappy hanna meter and allowed to go way high, develop mottled, wrinkled leaves that the plant did not 'grow out' of. Of course, in that case there may in fact have been a virus introduced as well- it wasn't exactly a scientific study lol.

My vote's on virus.

 

[MynameStitch]

Were these plants outdoors at all, pinched? Pruned or stalks got bent or some kind of sore on the plant at all?

 

[l33t]

Hi all

Thanx for your input guys . I really appreciate all the comments and advice.I have checked carefully for mites/pests and no sign at all.It really looks like a virus to me too that causes this 'variegation' ..or perhaps its a genetic based problem , in the sense that if its not a standard genetic trait perhaps the plants are picky and responded to something in the soil maybe..Don't know really.

Here a few details about the grow:

The plants are being grown indoors from start and are F1's . There were no other plants around in the garden for a long time as I just moved to a new location and waited 2-3 months before I started the grow.I don't have any other types of houseplants around.

I am growing them in a XXL Budbox.I didnt clean it with a an antibacterial or something similar before I put the plants in , I know..big mistake , and this has got me thinking that perhaps the tent brought the virus to may house, if it finally turns out to be a viral prob. Soil mix is 30% soil (BioBizz 'All-mix') 30% perlite and 30% Canna Coco.

The problem started from very early on (2 week from seed) and only one plant showed symptoms initially now it has spread to 4-5 plants which made me start worrying quite a bit. In case its a transferable problem I may end up tossing the affected plants which is something that I would really hate to do.

The plants haven't been pinched-topped yet or have any other 'wound'.

Stinkyattic,

Can you please tell me few things about the pest-bug bombs I never had any serious problems with pests so I 've never used them.Can you tell me few things about them? Do they release some kind of bug-killing gas? How dangerous are the remainings of this gas if thats the case, is it dangerous for plants or humans?

I feed organic nutes ( Biobizz: Grow/Bloom/TopMax/Heaven/FishMix) but the problem started before I fed the plants for their first time and the soil mix contains only 30% soil so I am pretty sure it doesn't have to do with overfertilizing. Perhaps Mg Calcium deficiency?..some people mentioned that , though I doubt this is the problem as I dont see the expected symptoms you d see if that was the case.

Ph problem could be a factor , I dont really know as I never use ph meters, soil and organic nutes keep a balanced ph and never had any other problems of this type, but I cant say for sure as I haven't measured the ph yet cause I don't have a ph meter handy at the moment.

I 've used the same potting mix (always use fresh) for many grows and with many different strains with no ph problems or anything similar to this. I didn't measure the ph but as long as the water and potting mix have a balanced ph that shouldn't be the prob.

The weird thing is that from all the strains I 've grown so far the only other strain that showed the exact same problem was SSH.One of the ssh girls I had had the same symptoms and the problem continued till the end of the plants life. That ssh plant was flushed early on but that didn't help and all leaf growth was affected but the plant had finished on time loaded with healthy flowers so it didn't to seem to suffer much from that problem . So the fact that ssh was the only other strain from all I ve grown so far and the fact that ssh is very closely related to ssh makes me presume that it might have to do with genetics , mutation perhaps , or that these genetics are picky to something that is in the soil mix I use. Few people that have grown MangoHaze had the exact same problem but it could be a coincidence..though that got me thinkin. Some people I asked said it doesn't look like any other common problem like ph/ec etc..and they have seen it before and believe its related to genetics.Others agree its a virus.

And the problem definitely isn't related to overwatering or lack of oxygen in the roots as I try too keep the soil go quite dry during the watering cycles and is never allowed to stay oversaturated for days.The plants receive bottled water so the water is of quite good quality and ph is around 6.8-7.2 ..so I don't thing the problem lies in the water either.

Here are two more pics , bit closer ones so you can see the leaves' symptomes kinda better:

 

[MynameStitch]

Are these plants all grown in the same mixture? Bio biz all mix I have seen some zinc deficicies in.

How often are you feeding them and the dosage you are using?

That mixture is very hot for seedlings man, should not be used, it even says it somewhere not to use it for seedlings, I say you should flush your plants out. Top part of the plant is the most affected....... micronutrients does this.....


I gotta tell you, when a plant is affected with a virus, the whole plant is affected, not just tops of the plant.... something else is wrong; your problem looks like a very progressed zinc deficiency, notice how only the tops are affected, your leaves veins, they are yellow correct? While the rest is green?
Your problem is a lockout rather than a deficiency, I just always use the term "deficiency, meaning it's not there, which zinc is not there in the plant"
Is your mixture high in phosphorus?
Zinc will also make the leaves come out whitish with no color like that when it's being locked out, high phosphorus levels lock out zinc and all zinc deficiencies I Have seen have been on smaller plants like seedlings upwards to 4 to 5 weeks of age. It's also called "little leaf" Which means it causes the petioles to shrink and from the pics it looks like there is some shrinkage there......

A virus or bacteria has to invade via a wound on a plant or from soil via the root system and since all of them are in the same mixture, I am guessing something is wrong with the soil, either too high of something...... you did not give much details as to what you feed them and such...... personally from my experience this case looks like a very progressed deficiency/lockout of zinc.

Like stinky said, high pH or very low pH can cause problems like this too.
Zinc is in little amounts and cannabis does not need a lot, but when a problem arises, pH or too high of phosphorus zinc will become locked out, and in order to fix the problem you have to fix what is causing it, you won't need to add zinc, it should come back after the culprit is removed from the equation.

How often are you watering them?
Feeding them just added to the problem and made matters worse, what size pots are they in?

 

[l33t]

Yes all are being grown in BioBizz AllMix with extra added 30% perlite and 30%coco.So basically its 30% soil in the final mix rest is coco & perlite.

The problem started with one affected plant that started show these symptoms on the leaf growth/tissue and that was before I gave them their first feeding with nutes and as the potting mix was not hot as it only has 30% soil in it I am really confused.



The plants are being Fed with Biobizz nutes: 2ml/L Grow + 2ml/L FishMix , 1.5mlTopMax 1 ml BioBloom and 1-2 ml/L BioHeaven , every watering.But as I aid the first symptoms started before I started using the ferts.

I see your point about Zinc , perhaps you are right though many factors tell me it isnt the case, not sure though . What should I do to correct the Zinc problem if thats the case?

Btw plants are in 1liter pots at the moment , I am about to transplant to 11Liter ones tomorrow.Plants are flowered from seed,grown straight under 12/12.I water when they need to every 3-4days approximately. Feed every watering.Most plants are looking great , its just the affected ones that show symptoms.Actually they grow as fast as the rest plants (unaffected) but they just seem to show these deformed leaves.

Thanx again for the reply

.

 

[stinkyattic]

You can actually get pyrethrin bug bombs and how they work is they release an insecticidal vapor. Pyrethrin actually breaks down VERY fast (just a few days to be 'clean') under intense light. I think the one you would want is Doktor Doom, which is meant for use on indoor plants and contains no other chemicals that DON'T break down quickly, like some of the house bombs do. Personally, I use the Raid pyrethrin one, which does have other stuff in it, but never after week 3 of flower.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't one of the mechanisms by which viruses reproduce involve making itself a part of the host's DNA or RNA? Or by forcing the host to replicate the VIRAL RNA? This is getting into some stuff I'm shaky on...

 

[HeadyPete]

The chances that all these plants are viral infected and that they came from different seeds is almost nil. I could see if these were cutz from an infected mom, but one of a plant's best defenses against viral infection is producing seeds, as the virus can only rarely be passed on through seed.

The chance that 5 or more seeds were infected is very low.

Stitch, I grow in most of that same BioBizz stuff and have never seen a zinc def or weirdness like that....it looks like iron def, bet ph is out. I also use Cal Max, so there is iron in it.

l33t, don't think that because you had some lucky success you don't need to know about ph. I need to add ph up to get my nutes to 8ish to get my soil and runoff to an ideal 6.3ish. Natural organic action in the soil lowers ph over time. Testing PH every time you water both nutes and runoff will give you a clear picture of your PH over time. PH must be correct for absorption of all nutes, and the first thing to check always if there are problems. Adding nutes will do no good if ph is out and locked up. Could do harm with nuteburn even though it looks like your plants need more. Nutes are there, but unavailable and if fert salts build up in your soil it will kill your plant.

Why did you start your seeds flowering immediately? 12/12 from germination? You will get no yield like that because your plants have not put down adequate roots to grow big buds later. A veg period under 24 hr light is a must

I wrote this next part before realizing you were in 12/12, but it is good advice for vegging:

I agree you are feeding too much for vegging plants. BioBizz has a nute sched, and nowhere does it recommend feeding TopMax to vegging plants. It is a fruit enhancer and hardener, so you are wasting it on veg. I use 1 ml per litre for vegging plants under CFL. If you have more light, you will need more grow, and if you want to use the fish mix too, use 1/2 ml/L grow with 1/2 ml/L Fish together for your veg nutes. Also no need for bloom until flowering.

I am going to go with Iron def. You can use some CalMax for iron, plus it provides cal and mag, if your water isn't hard enough. MJ uses a lot of cal and mag, especially when it starts flowering. I find I need to give 5ml/4L every 5th watering or so, depends on strain.

Anyone else have some thoughts?

 

[MynameStitch]

The ones I seen have this problem were also using bloom ferts with the mixture, and even then it was still very little........ the mixture itself is not the blame, thats why I asked if he was using bloom or something, given the fact they were in there since seed is also what made me ask, due to the ones I did see have this problem they were small too, but again they also fed bloom ferts.

I will say this is most defiantly an over feeding issue, either way it is a micronutrient lockout, considering the fact it started before he fed, was either a issue with soil being rich or pH, combination of both I bet. I think it may be a combination of both, the last picture he uploaded is the only picture that looks like a zinc deficiency...... the rest could very well be possibly an iron problem, either way we both agree he is over feeding


How often are you watering your plants?

 

[l33t]

Hi HeadyPete

The chances that all these plants are viral infected and that they came from different seeds is almost nil. I could see if these were cutz from an infected mom, but one of a plant's best defenses against viral infection is producing seeds, as the virus can only rarely be passed on through seed.

The chance that 5 or more seeds were infected is very low.

Stitch, I grow in most of that same BioBizz stuff and have never seen a zinc def or weirdness like that....it looks like iron def, bet ph is out. I also use Cal Max, so there is iron in it.

l33t, don't think that because you had some lucky success you don't need to know about ph. I need to add ph up to get my nutes to 8ish to get my soil and runoff to an ideal 6.3ish. Natural organic action in the soil lowers ph over time. Testing PH every time you water both nutes and runoff will give you a clear picture of your PH over time. PH must be correct for absorption of all nutes, and the first thing to check always if there are problems. Adding nutes will do no good if ph is out and locked up. Could do harm with nuteburn even though it looks like your plants need more. Nutes are there, but unavailable and if fert salts build up in your soil it will kill your plant.

Thanx for the comments. I can see what you mean.It is wierd to have all these plants (4-5 affected from total 28 seedlings) show these symptoms ..if it is a viral thing. I wouldnt expect it to spread that fast , so it may indeed be a ph prob, a lockout , or a deficiency perhaps..

I never had serious problems with my plants apart from some slight deficiencies here and there (that were fixed) in my grows and so I never actually had the need to test ph . I agree though that when the problems seem that serious its always good to use a ph meter to check things , it can help identify the source to the problem .

BTW viruses can be passed on within the new seeds from what I read and other people told me. Still not sure if its not a virus problem ..

Do you suggest I use ph paper test strips? , I cant afford a ph digi-meter so I was thinking of getting these cheap ph-test paper strips. Will these do a correct or at least roughly correct ph measurement?

Why did you start your seeds flowering immediately? 12/12 from germination? You will get no yield like that because your plants have not put down adequate roots to grow big buds later. A veg period under 24 hr light is a must

I grow many sativa dominant strains like the one I am growing at the moment, straight 12/12 from germination and always had very good results .I grew SuperSilverHaze which is a sister strain to MangoHaze ( both from MrNiceSeedbank) and the plants grew 1.4-2m tall and yielded great for non-vegged plants , around 70-100gramms / 2.5-3 oz per plant. Took 90-100days from seed to harvest.So yields are not a problem as they can be really good even for zero veg time with sativas or sat dominant strains.

I wrote this next part before realizing you were in 12/12, but it is good advice for vegging:

I agree you are feeding too much for vegging plants. BioBizz has a nute sched, and nowhere does it recommend feeding TopMax to vegging plants. It is a fruit enhancer and hardener, so you are wasting it on veg. I use 1 ml per litre for vegging plants under CFL. If you have more light, you will need more grow, and if you want to use the fish mix too, use 1/2 ml/L grow with 1/2 ml/L Fish together for your veg nutes. Also no need for bloom until flowering.

I am going to go with Iron def. You can use some CalMax for iron, plus it provides cal and mag, if your water isn't hard enough. MJ uses a lot of cal and mag, especially when it starts flowering. I find I need to give 5ml/4L every 5th watering or so, depends on strain.

Anyone else have some thoughts?

Thanx again for the reply and advice.


Hi MynameStitch,

How often are you watering your plants?

I water every 3-5 days depends on when soil becomes dry.

 

[MynameStitch]

Ya, that is way too often, even for soiless mixture, not to mention the amount you are using and considering you feed every watering and do not give them a plain drink, I can bet you have a buildup and locking out things and causing the pH to go out of wack.

So I suggest to flush with around a gallon of water or a little more per plant just to ensure you got everything out that was built up.

Wait about a week before feeding again, and this time go easy on the nutrients and how often you feed.......

After the flush, right when you put in the final water, collect the run off and make sure it's seperate from the flush, meaning drain any excess water out of the pan and get a new pan at the bottom to collect the run off so you can test the pH without all the buildup in there.

 

[l33t]

Thanx again for the input and advice Stitch.

I ll flush the affected ones and try to get ph measuring strips to check that too.

I use the same feeding schedule always with all my grows with no probs(I refer to feeding with every watering).I guess if the plants grow with fast rates they consume all their food and I think its better to feed with medium doses everywatering instead of feeding strong doses less often .Cant say that for sure but I worked for me without any probs so far.

BTW I had the same symptoms I have with the affected plants with 1 of my SSH and even though I had flushed that plant and went easy on the nutes with it (flushed at the beginning of flowering when the problem started ) the prob continued till the end of the plants cycle though it didnt seem to affect it much , it finished loaded with buds .I ll try it with these affected ones though perhaps it will help , we 'll see if it helps.

Here is a shot of the whole garden.Most plants look very healthy apart from the two affected females. The other 2 affected ones were males.

Here in this photo you can see mostly females

All look good and very healty apart from the two affected females that you can see at the lower right part of the pic:

 

[l33t]

And here is a close-up from the affected females:

[/url]

 

[MynameStitch]

What were you using to test the pH with that grow and the grow you are doing now?

Could not tell you about last grow, have no information about it. But I will say, does not matter if you ease up on the nutrients or not, if the pH is off the plant won't get nothing and will still show problems.

That is why petey said the pH has to be corrected first before anything else can be corrected, it's like trying to eat frozen food, it's there and you see it, but you can't bite it until it thaws

 

[l33t]

Hi stitch

I didnt test the ph in most of my grows , I didnt really have any unsolved probs so I didnt had the need to , but I need to do it now as I agree with you that it needs to be tested before driving conclusions. Do you think ph test strips will do a descent measurment?

 

[HeadyPete]

After vegging one month I got 11 oz dried off one plant, 3 foot tall. Indica, mind you, but still better than 3 oz on a 2 m plant. Try vegging out and growing a good root system before throwing into 12/12. I think you will be happy with the improvement.

I didn't say virus can't spread through seeds, I said the chances were low, about 20% according to some research. The chances of you getting 5 infected seeds are very low.

I would have to recommend a digipen. Mine is a Milwaukee and it was $70. They aren't all expensive and it is part of the necessary gear to grow successfully, like a good flowering HID light. I can't recommend strips, they are fine for pools, not plants. You need to know ph to the first decimal place, not just a vague colour strip.

 

[l33t]

Hi Heady Pete

After vegging one month I got 11 oz dried off one plant, 3 foot tall. Indica, mind you, but still better than 3 oz on a 2 m plant.

Are you talking about clones ? Or Seedplants ?

Me , I referred to seedplants myself, and I believe no man has ever got on this planet 11oz from a seedplant (indica strain) with 3 weeks veg.If you mean clones..well its a whole nother story , as I said I refer to seedplants.
Personally I get 0.7-1.1 g /watt with '12/12 from seed' and with sativas which I prefer to smoke.So the method works and produces excellent results.

I know that I can get more yield per plant with vegging a bit but I d rather use more plants per light to compensate and not only harvest/finish earlier but avoid spending energy for more weeks on growing plants that turn out to be males. If you want to see good '12/12 from seed' grows look for sativas and sat dominant plant grows , these respond very good to 12/12 from seed unlike indicas. Here is a nice thread on 12/12 from seed if you wanna have a look, some interestin info nad nice pics in there:
http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=51760

I like to veg plants myself too for 3-5 weeks, but it depends on the strain.Anyway we re getting a bit out of topic so I hope you don't mind focus our discussion on the actual plant health problem and not on growing methods.I hope you understand and agree.

I know exactly what you mean Pete about getting a proper good quality ph meter , you are absolutely right , I will do so , but I can't afford to get one this very moment so I was thinking for a cheap alternative option for this grow to test ph now that I am encountering this plant health prob. After this grow I will certainly get a good one like you suggested. No need to risk things by getting inaccurate readings.

I didn't say virus can't spread through seeds, I said the chances were low, about 20% according to some research. The chances of you getting 5 infected seeds are very low.

Yes I have to agree the chances of being a virus and having spread so fast to 5 plants sound extreme like you say , thats why I believe you may be right about the ph.

Thanx again for all the help

 

[Bedtimeforbonzo]

I have seen seedlings do this due to spider mites. When i had this problem i first got predator mites They are real fucking troopers lemme tell u. They will EAt 3 adult spider mites a day or 20 eggs, And the reproduce twice as fast.....Also Get some floramite Its expense if around 300 bucks for a quart but u can find it places in for 20$ for an oz (all u should need) That combo fixed that prob when i had it.