Can any Breeder/pheno hunter explain to me WTF is going on??

[maryjaneismyfre]

That environment changes the smell, taste, bud density, everything. If you are seeing a difference from the same plant then it is environment related. Simple is that. Cool your room down and drop the RH and the plant should be like Mom.

Yes...and no...once you see things through the viroid filter...you can't unsee them..this has been affected our grows, all of us, for a very long time..this has been skewing our judgement and our dialing in to a very large degree for a long time. That now is clear to me. If i did not grow out multiple varieties clean and see the difference for myself I would be still unaware.. If we did not start PCR testing 2-3 years back, I'd still be blaming myself, or my environment, or nutrition, or genetics. Good genetics, clean on a good balanced diet, will thrive in any environment, almost, that we grow in, and will really perform in a good environment like a rockstar. Mold resistances, tolerances, all of that go way up..you start to see how all those dialing in factors we figured out over the years are also largely the same "abiotic stress factors" that can trigger the loss of the war of the plant with viroid.

 

[maryjaneismyfre]

Straight up..lucky enough to be working with clean stuff..and everyday is an education for me all over again.. I don't think any of our stuff has been clean for almost 20 years...This is what growing used to be like, when i was a novice, all over again..you look away from clones and they started rooting, you look away again and they got rootballs, you look away again and they are pushing themselves out the trays wanting to get transplanted..I remember now in hindsight when it used to be like this..looooooong ago. By my reckoning now the late 90s early 2000s dutch seed was clean, as was the landraces I was playing with..I think not long after there was a point where everything was dirty.

 

[maryjaneismyfre]

I've found that every cut down the ladder loses a little something. Mostly in flavor. I try to keep my original mother going as long as possible before cloning clones. I've got a 5 yr old Larry Og that I've cloned clones a few times. It lost most of its flavor and vigour. Gonna seed her out and then be gone with her.

Ie.. every cut that goes around is already infected by the time its a "cut" that goes around..that is what we found in testing. Viroid..and others..systemic pathogenic bacteria/fungi/viroids and virii.

In our testing, there was no exception.

 

[Diggy_Soze]

I think it’s all in your head. If you are absolutely sure the seed weed is different than the clone flowers, there are only two possibilities.

1) You’re seeing different phenotypes due to differences in the environment.
OR
2) Your dry / curing environment is different between seed : clone runs.

That’s it. There’s no other variables, besides pathogens, which should be entirely unrelated to your seed vs clone problem.

 

[led05]

I’ll preface this with I’m a seed whore; but it never fails to amaze me how much people don’t fully appreciate the vigor & vitality of good seed, everything after that point are mere derivatives and can be almost as good but will always be just sitting below in the seeds shadow….

Peace & Happy farming

PS: read an interesting article other day where someone was trying to say 7-8% of our human genome is of virus origins, perhaps total BS but it definitely had me

 

[led05]

One is you may be facing is phenotypic plasticity
Another option is maturity.

In terms of maturity - having bred for almost 2 decades I have seen how a plant changes dramatically after being alive for a while. Some plants dont really shine til they are vegging at least 6 months. The tricky thing is, when you take a clone, the clone will no longer mature. If your seed plant is 2 months old when you take a clone, even if you veg out that clone for 10 years, genetically its still only 2 months old. If you vegged both the 2 month clone beside the seed plant for a year, the seed plant would start exhibiting new features.
So, maybe your seed plant was maturing more than your clones and thus produced different chemotypes.

Then theres phenotypic plasticity. It could be that whatever youre using to clone or any difference in environment or foods is causing the differences.

What’s up my old friend, interesting post - I agree with a lot of it but I’d love for you to expand & theorize upon this part

“If your seed plant is 2 months old when you take a clone, even if you veg out that clone for 10 years, genetically its still only 2 months old.“

 

[Thcvhunter]

What’s up my old friend, interesting post - I agree with a lot of it but I’d love for you to expand & theorize upon this part

“If your seed plant is 2 months old when you take a clone, even if you veg out that clone for 10 years, genetically its still only 2 months old.“

Something I notice while running a line through several runs.
Taking early clones and flowering those clones was different than clones I took from the mom in years 2 and 3.

A couple other breeders have spoken about this - vegging a seed plant for as long as you can before taking cuts to keep.

My preference for sativas is to let the mom veg at least 8-12 months before cloning or breeding.

 

[TheDarkStorm]

One is you may be facing is phenotypic plasticity
Another option is maturity.

In terms of maturity - having bred for almost 2 decades I have seen how a plant changes dramatically after being alive for a while. Some plants dont really shine til they are vegging at least 6 months. The tricky thing is, when you take a clone, the clone will no longer mature. If your seed plant is 2 months old when you take a clone, even if you veg out that clone for 10 years, genetically its still only 2 months old. If you vegged both the 2 month clone beside the seed plant for a year, the seed plant would start exhibiting new features.
So, maybe your seed plant was maturing more than your clones and thus produced different chemotypes.

Then theres phenotypic plasticity. It could be that whatever youre using to clone or any difference in environment or foods is causing the differences.

Are you sure thats right....were you say if you take a cutting from a plant at two months old....even if you veg that cutting then for ten years it will stay 2 months old....were did you get that from please.....isnt it a case of the cutting will contine to age or grow in maturity same as if the seed plant had been kept...so a cutting vegging for 10 years would be the same as if the seed plant had been kept vegging for 10years.....its one of the reasons cuttings will finish flowering faster than a seed plant as they are a lot more mature...not sure why the dna would freeze in time, it continues to age like normal...ive personally held a clone mother for years and years and the stems start to go very woody as if they are years and years old...if if you take a cutting of a cutting of a cutting and 10 years have past that dna is 10 years old and would be the same as if the seed plant had been vegged 10 years.....are you sure what you've written isnt a mistake ?

 

[maryjaneismyfre]

Something I notice while running a line through several runs.
Taking early clones and flowering those clones was different than clones I took from the mom in years 2 and 3.

A couple other breeders have spoken about this - vegging a seed plant for as long as you can before taking cuts to keep.

My preference for sativas is to let the mom veg at least 8-12 months before cloning or breedi

The degree of pathogen load the mom has picked up in that time, or viroid load from point of infection, from a large proportion of seed sources, will be as the seed germinated and its emerging root, touched the soil that touched the outside of the seed, unless you bleached the seed prior to germination, and the seed plants roots never touched another plants roots or drain/runoff water.. Yes there is a difference in the first run from seed, and the next in terms of hormones being fully mature at second run, but I see now through testing over last 2 years, almost all stuff available is infected, and we are always seeing things through that filter of the slow slide downhill from viroid load building over time. Unless one is at scale it is very different to see the pattern of loss of yield first then quality, and due to the nature of it happening slowly over time, unless one was recording metrics, days to root etc, and having photos of first run, second run, third, fourth etc..once doesnt see it..the slide can be very gradual at first...for months on a variety till if has not tolerance it falls off a cliff, if some tolerance even harder to see, my clone I ran commercially for 15 years, I see now clear as day, was infected the whole time, but that clone has a clear tolerance we see in testing, sometimes negative on foliage or growth tips, but test the roots and its of the highest level we tested...makes sense since the gal is over 30 years old and quite the slut being handed about..of course she'd have some stds.

 

[CannaT]

Im growing many years indoors and out....never had 2 harvests of the same clone that are identical they are very,very simmilar but with small differences.

 

[maryjaneismyfre]

Start testing your mother and father stock, for virii and viroid, and start testing plants one is growing out from seed..and an entirely different picture to what one saw over the last 20 years, clearly and quietly emerges...Once you see it you can't unsee it.. I can walk through a greenhouse now with 20000 plants flowering and I can show you the one in 1000 near duds in everything, you'll miss em unless you at scale and looking for them..They aren't duds just look off to plants next to them, resin not as shiny, buds smaller, chlorosis around centre of buds and leaves greener to outside, leaflets starting to overlap on bud leaf and doing to point to outside on two leaflets either side of the centre leaflet, a branch that cant hold the weight of a small lower bud..If one was growing from seed one would assume genetic traits..Growing thousands of the same clone, you'd think a mislabelled mom mixed in..but testing (roots not leaves) shows one that everything is infected...just you seeing the degree of viral load. The entire rest of the greenhouse looking as good as anywhere in the world..actually is all infected. If one tests leaves it would seem like a % is infected, but it is all infected, just managed well. Though where there is a block of plants from cleaned up tissues of same varieties, you can see that the buds are just monsters and uber dank, the low viroid load stuff managed well, is just as dank just buds are 60-70% of the size. and the canopy has slight variation in height of 6 inches from tallest to shortest, where the block from cleaned tissue is like a lawn of colas, barely and inch in difference between them.

What one is seeing there is low load of infection, but first stages where hormone production being affected, primarily IAA and IBA, shooting and rooting...and a plant will always grow bud mass relative to the root mass it grew before that, so thats why the yield metric gets hit first while quality is up. As infection sets in over the next few months as viroid load builds in mothers roots, clones will take longer and longer to root, less success and more secondary fungal infections. In flower too fungal infections start to climb, PM and budrot, root rot etc. Root rot spreads the viroid too, physically in fungal tissue, and by spore. It is horrific.


Once viroid level is high, the rna that is used to make cannabinoids, is largely replaced by an equivalent rna segment from the viroid that does nothing, and cannabinoid production falls off the cliff, terpenes also greatly affected at this stage, bud size dramatically affected at this stage and branches soft and come out horizontal and no fibre at this stage, plants are flopsy.

So much i have attributed to so much else over the years is now to my eyes in hindsight, clearly viral and viroid pathogenic load. Only doing much testing over the last few years has shown me this.

There is a saying in the local language round these parts that has a nice rhyme, translated into english not as eloquent, but just as true..."To measure is to know."

 

[maryjaneismyfre]

Im growing many years indoors and out....never had 2 harvests of the same clone that are identical they are very,very simmilar but with small differences.

Yeah what you've been seeing the whole time, is different degrees of viroid load. I'd put my money on it. Grow the same clone cleaned up of any viral load and you be like WTF wow this is the most beast mode dankest plant you've ever grown...
Straight up...

I can go roam through the greenhouses and take some pics of degree of infection, if people want to see..I mean unless one sees side by side...ones like oh this part of the greenhouse room is shaded, or this or that..but actually, back at the ranch...I can show you stuff from shade and full light where you I got no infection in shade, vs low infection in high light, vs med infection in shade, to high infection in high light, to to...the spectrum of effects is vast...LOL I just had a plant pathologist walk though with me now...he said it was the cleanest best cannabis crop he has ever seen...
I then took him back and trained his eye..now he cant unsee it, blown away..entire crop be 40% more mass if one has the trained eye one can see it, untrained to this specific pathogen but trained eye, and one sees the cleanest best crop they ever saw...If it was all clean it would look fake, alien...the truth..I mean i can show you pics from 4 plants look completely unrelated plants, but they the same clone in different light levels, with varying degrees of viral load, from lowest to none (ie. if infected only since put to flower and not enough time to affect production) to low almost imperceptible load, too hmm is something up with this plant load, I can see but not..to...WTF is up with this plant load...the one in a thousand or one in ten thousand. But they all the same clone..If you grew from seed and had those plants you be like this line not stable, too many phenos..but actually unbeknown to one theyd be genetic clones of each other..growth from apical dominant single cola, to christmas tree, to bush, to viney lateral growth..but all the same clone..its all this affecting biological processes of the plant, hormones, immune system, cannabinoid production etc..But there is such a wide spectrum of degree of effect, depending on level of infection load.

 

[CannaT]

Yeah what you've been seeing the whole time, is different degrees of viroid load. I'd put my money on it. Grow the same clone cleaned up of any viral load and you be like WTF wow this is the most beast mode dankest plant you've ever grown...
Straight up...

I can go roam through the greenhouses and take some pics of degree of infection, if people want to see..I mean unless one sees side by side...ones like oh this part of the greenhouse room is shaded, or this or that..but actually, back at the ranch...I can show you stuff from shade and full light where you I got no infection in shade, vs low infection in high light, vs med infection in shade, to high infection in high light, to to...the spectrum of effects is vast...LOL I just had a plant pathologist walk though with me now...he said it was the cleanest best cannabis crop he has ever seen...
I then took him back and trained his eye..now he cant unsee it, blown away..entire crop be 40% more mass if one has the trained eye one can see it, untrained to this specific pathogen but trained eye, and one sees the cleanest best crop they ever saw...If it was all clean it would look fake, alien...the truth..I mean i can show you pics from 4 plants look completely unrelated plants, but they the same clone in different light levels, with varying degrees of viral load, from lowest to none (ie. if infected only since put to flower and not enough time to affect production) to low almost imperceptible load, too hmm is something up with this plant load, I can see but not..to...WTF is up with this plant load...the one in a thousand or one in ten thousand. But they all the same clone..If you grew from seed and had those plants you be like this line not stable, too many phenos..but actually unbeknown to one theyd be genetic clones of each other..growth from apical dominant single cola, to christmas tree, to bush, to viney lateral growth..but all the same clone..its all this affecting biological processes of the plant, hormones, immune system, cannabinoid production etc..But there is such a wide spectrum of degree of effect, depending on level of infection load.

It's easiest to talk about the virus, you have to start with yourself first. Every grow is specific because I don't have a 100% closed room. It means that I can never have all the parameters under control. This alone makes it impossible for the plant to be the same. I think that these viruses are nonsense...I don't feel the difference in yield or potency. I totally disagree with you. And it's clear to me what kind of person you are when you first ask what about breeders... I think that smart people would first ask what about my conditions that I give to the plant, this way it turns out that you are some god of cultivation who does everything absolutely perfectly and there is a virus is to blame that your plants are not the same.
Grow up or lower your ego a bit...this will help you in life.
Or if you will come with secret sauce against viruses in few weeks,its again very bad marketing which many people here have.

Today many people grow,and truth is that many people are not for this. And they have results like that.
I know guys that grow for years even decades and I have never saw high grade from them...thats the way it is.

 

[maryjaneismyfre]

"To measure, is to know"
Have you tested your plants?

We tested ours, and many others..found some negative, some positive, some low load, some high load. We then later tested roots, our plants, others, all austrian clone nurseries, dutch tissue suppliers, swiss tissue suppliers, dutch seed plants, cali seed plants, our own seed plants from breeding, all dirty unless from seed. I'm not god, but I've been very lucky the last 4 years to be on a scale that most don't have access to see first hand, and I've got resources behind me that I spent my whole life wishing for..Once we started doing root testing, it was clear..we would only find a clean plant sometimes, if freshly germinated from seed and the seed was not infected, and we bleached the seeds before planting, and it was not a high % either.
You can go buy chinese hemp seed on the shelf of your local health shop and test it and there is a very high likelyhood that you will test positive, that is how widespread this is. I do not however see it in the pics from the fields in Afghanistan, but in african fields I can now see it 100% going back to mid 2000's.

I can look back to my big outdoor grows the year after Jorge blew us away with the humboldt "ten pound plants" and I had it then..I can look at pictures of plants in different parts of the half a football field garden that we did the year before that, assumed ah that part of garden soil or light or something not as good..but now i can see clearly in a field where i know all is infected and i can find you high load plants in shade duddng and low load plants in shade looking amazing. I can look to years prior and I see it now in all the seeds or cuts that we got. Once you see it you cant unsee it. I have between 5 and 10 000 of a plant flowering out now that we contract grow.. I took pics earlier..All same clone. varying degrees of infection. Depends on how many plants you do per run, how many moms you have and hence how often replacing them..low numbers and you dont see the one in thousand cant miss me plants, as you might take ten runs to hit that number of plants to see one dud, even though your whole garden may be low load all the time, most are..Run 10000 of a cut and you see ten of them in a field in front of you...and wonder WTF?..Test and you find out and know..its all a numbers game to spot it, till you trained your eye and done enough testing, at which point you assuming anything, is more likely dirty rather than clean.. I'll post some pics later when chance, might change your mind..If not, no skin off my back, you can wake up when its too late like everyone else is, I am just trying to warn you. All the big players still in business, they are well aware already and managing it. Round my parts most unaware still, even most larger licenses rowing circles in the dark wondering why they can never just dial shit in.

Start PCR testing any material you can find, roots if you can take samples..and you quickly see whats up...its insidious shit..it is EVERYWHERE..you been warned..LOL

 

[maryjaneismyfre]

Im growing many years indoors and out....never had 2 harvests of the same clone that are identical they are very,very simmilar but with small differences.

Even my old staple commercial clone, would make fist colas or spears with both sometimes foxtailing at the end..temps bringing that about. Now I know the two shapes are different degrees of viroid level though generally low in that varieties flower, as it is somewhat tolerant, and the stress due to heat, is also greatly influenced by viroid load..it is a genetic response to an environmental trigger, but I now know there is more at play. Remove the viroid load and the hormonal systems of the plant react differently..there was always another filter I was seeing through, unbeknown to me. That is response of the genetic to viroid load. I defineatly see more tolerance in older skunks and heirlooms, generalizing, that the modern more bottlenecked stuff. but all succumb, it is just the degree to which they are affected.

 

[CannaT]

Even my old staple commercial clone, would make fist colas or spears with both sometimes foxtailing at the end..temps bringing that about. Now I know the two shapes are different degrees of viroid level though generally low in that varieties flower, as it is somewhat tolerant, and the stress due to heat, is also greatly influenced by viroid load..it is a genetic response to an environmental trigger, but I now know there is more at play. Remove the viroid load and the hormonal systems of the plant react differently..there was always another filter I was seeing through, unbeknown to me. That is response of the genetic to viroid load. I defineatly see more tolerance in older skunks and heirlooms, generalizing, that the modern more bottlenecked stuff. but all succumb, it is just the degree to which they are affected.

It can only be messure if you have 100% closed system.
In all other situations you are talking no sense...outdoor grow...wtf man...you cant masure nothing outdoors to much various things.

Its stupid to we discuss more cuz we agree that we dont agree.

 

[BC LONE WOLF]

Possible recessive traits down the line triggered by drastic environmental adjustment (cloning), then progressive adaptation to abiotic stress will shape your new pheno (clone).

This year I did a test cloning all my phenos males and females, had variations even on the clones themselves. I cloned early flowering males, vegging females, soil and soils mediums for clones…

When full on veg and mature I have now different phenos from same parental and the clones looking like a complete other plant… with days apart from the ripe buds.

I also can’t explain it but then I’m thinking what about the recessive traits ? I fully understand the concept of phenotypic plasticity but I wasn’t counting that this morphological adaptation could completely change the plant almost to the point of making the clones look like they came from another mom.

Now I have to make pheno selection of the clones and classifying them according to traits not taking in consideration they come from the same genotype. Piles and piles of extra work…

 

[maryjaneismyfre]

But did you guys do PCR testing of what you grow, most of most have not...? Until you have, you are just guessing. Once you do, you know. Once you done a lot..you can't not see it almost everywhere...its very F'ked bro..but it is what it is. we have literally been dealing with this forever..but fuck its hard to see with the eye unless you see the duds or unless you seen a lot in all its stages, including uninfected..almost all not seen an uninfected plant make it to be a mother inlast loooooong time. so most haven't even had the opportunity to see all the degrees of, from none to heavy..most have only seen the low infected to high to extreme range..at least I have only seen plants like that since 2004 I'll take a guess at. If we never tested and I'd not grown truely clean plants..I'd still be of a very similar opinion yours..the true picture is WAY bad. It is so widespread..in seed from the last decade and a half, nevermind clones sold or handed about there is almost no way one of our gardens has not been exposed to it, and once you learn about it you realize once a plant infected most times its quickly all from drain water, tools, pots, media reuse etc..

I'll get chance later to upload some pics..you'll see for yourself.

 

[maryjaneismyfre]

The hormones are so vigorous in uninfected plants, that they bounce back from abiotic stress SO quickly, it truely blows my mind away DAILY..today i took pics of a room of moms clean of infection, that were recovering from abiotic stress of high temps and sodium in new media, transplanted 2.5 weeks back, 1.5 weeks of stress and recovery, then a week of growth, last monday they were foot and half high from transplant, today they are over 4 ft tall...8 days later..thats almost 3 foot of robust growth in a week, lights are not on full, PPFD is mid range, CO2 600 ppm sealed room. It is not one variety, but all of them acting like that, its a lawn in there over 4 ft tall from just recovering transplants a week ago..You just cannot get that growth with normal infected plants, no matter how much IAA I spray or, to overcome viroid effects. The way they react to being cut...its madness..the growth structure I see in every variety of mom once we take them down for cuts, the way they explode back...i've not seen that form of plant in 20 years..if I show pics some of you would have seen plants with that form, way back, most never...but I'm not lying when i say every variety is growing like that.

I would be ignorant to it if I never had the opportunities I do..if you think I am sharing all this due to ego, its your loss...30-40% every run at best case scenario...lots more at worst case. The guys that are leading the pack, many of them come from here in the old days...they are not dealing with that loss anymore..but neither are they on here shouting it from the rooftops. You can remove your blinkers..or not..whatever..I dont care..Some will wake up and thank me later..

 

[Paradox808]

Some of my plants have been showing signs of bull crap side by side, all the same cuts. Some PBBreath are making almost zero secondary branches and the healthy ones look like bushes I've had to trim back several times. Now I need to toss everything out and have to start over with stock that's probably infected. I noticed signs of the plants acting up last run... It's more severe this time around.

These viroids, pathogens, bacterias, molds. It's all real. Disease is real.